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Politics - I apologize

Discussion in 'Hangout Lounge' started by cds1984, Oct 30, 2020.

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  1. cds1984

    cds1984 Active Member

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    I'm an Australian and daily I check the news to see if America has finished with its craziness.
    But...
    I hope you guys get through the stupidity and return to a coherent and respected part of the global community.
    Good luck.
     
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  2. cds1984

    cds1984 Active Member

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    Anxiety.

    In Australia it is compulsory to vote.
    In other words, you get a fine if you dont.
    so...
    That means, all the politician has to do is not piss off the voter and he is back in.
    From a working class point of view (since going to the polling place is a pain in the backside), at any rate.

    Damn...
    I never thought I'd be saying that I was happy with our system but sheesh... electoral college votes... what the hell?
    Crazyiness ensues.

    Good luck again America!
     
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  3. tabaka45

    tabaka45 Well-Known Member

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    We are a Republic. Electoral College is meant it insure that each state is important in the final outcome. Our problem is not the Electoral College. It is that each state can decide how voting is done in the state, and there is often no requirement for positive identification. Some folks figure out how to vote in two or more states, dead folks have been known to vote, and a lot of folks just don't vote. It would seem that a national voting policy, a data base of voter id's, positive voter id at the polls, and early in-person voting at would go a long ways toward cleaning up our system.
     
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  4. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member

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    The electoral college was a compromise given the vastness of the US territory and slow communication of voting results. Whether or not it still serves its purpose largely depends on whether you find it advantageous politically.

    I’d say there’s something wrong when the majority of American citizens votes for a president and she/he doesn’t win. Consistently. Minority rule can be even more dangerous than majority rule.

    The US constitution is the reason why states control their own election laws. So it’s hard to be a purist then pick and choose which parts you agree with. I’d say the move from a largely agrarian society to industrialization and more intense urbanization should be considered when deciding election rules. But hey, only the rules that serve ones interests.

    Furthermore, the electoral college could have saved us from our current president, who’s inability to lead has likely led to 200,000+ American deaths just this year. If it can’t protect us from mob rule that empowers a tyrant who throws out all political norms and can’t handle a peaceful transition of power when losing an election, then what purpose can it serve?

    There is no wide spread voter fraud, despite what Rudy Juliani says behind the loading docks of a lawn care business between the adult book store and crematorium (look up Four Season Total Lawn). Look at the election lawsuits. Under penalty of perjury, most are thrown out by the judges for having absolutely no evidence. The lawyers pursuing these voter fraud cases will get disbarred if they lie, unlike the people in front of a camera.

    Why is it that elections can only be trusted if your choice wins? Why is it so hard to believe that most of America doesn’t agree with you? Part of being an American is the acceptance that there are diverse ideas across the country, and deal with that peacefully.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  5. dkavanagh

    dkavanagh Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I've heard arguments against going with the popular vote being that people in cities tend to have a group mentality (whatever that means). I think people who live close to each other tend to figure out how to get along and look out for one another. I don't think that's a bad thing.
     
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  6. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member

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    CGP Grey’s take in the “states’s protections” in the electoral college.

     
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  7. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    close this before it goes any farther
     
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  8. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Actually the Electoral College prevents the "rule by minority". Both in 2016 and again in 2020 the "popular vote margin" is basically due to the 3 or 4 major cities (NY, LA, Chicago), while the geographic (land area) popularity by candidate/philosophy is so crazily skewed to the "red" team that it boggles the mind........and as dkavanaugh points out, the whole "local" rule/mentality/philosophy is what was somewhat paramount when drafting the AoC and the Constitution ("C"), and for good reasons (recall that the "confederation" of states and then the constitution they adopted were done by INDEPENDENT entities (states) who wanted to retain as much of that, and thus wrote into the C this formula (among many other things) for maintaining independence. The Federal govt. was supposed to be small, for specific purposes, and all powers NOT SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED (listed) TO THE FEDERAL GOVT. was to remain with the states. Note that the RESTRICTIONS are fully and wholly on the FEDERAL guv, not the states.

    This is addressed well in the CGP Grey video, but it misses (or just barely touches on) the real point: The purposes of the Constitution, etc. is to LIMIT to power of the Federal Government and prevent it from becoming a monolithic beast (such as the King of England during that era), and it does so by very specific and intentional steps, such as creating 3 co-equal branches of government (there's also the somewhat un-mentioned "4th branch", which is the people of the country, but that's a topic for another time).

    Of course, for a variety of reasons----as so happens in history----things get turned upside-down over time and "original intents" get mis-understood, whitewashed, overturned, etc.

    Pretending that voter fraud doesn't happen is....umm, what's the right word....naive? It happens everywhere, all the time, in every country, and the more "sophisticated" the systems (and the bigger the stakes involved), the more and greater (and creative) methods of fraud/cheating/stealing there is (think of NASCAR). It was there in 1960 (Kennedy), it was there is 2000 (Bush), it's been there ever since and will there be until honest people take charge and stop this crap. Hell, I have to present a passport or my BIRTH CERIFICATE to renew my driver's license (I've been licensed for close to 40 years in the same state), but my mail-in ballots require no verification at all. P.S. I received 2 of them in the mail.


    Here, fraud in real-time:



    The entire video above is unbelievably interesting---some portions are software-geek-technical---but the segment from about 31:00 to 38:00 is jaw dropping.


    Four Seasons Landscaping....and their loading docks:

    https://twitter.com/anonpatriotq/status/1325228477449113601

    Key quote: Still think we don’t have it all?

    Enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  9. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    I wish, but the boss has spoken. As long as it dosen't spill out into other sections of the site political discussions are allowed.
    It's a shame really. At some point this will cause this site to turn into what every-other site ends up becoming; a devisive pile of poo.
     
  10. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Why does having adult conversations about important issues have to turn into a pile of poo? Are people not to be trusted to have/express differing opinions?
     
  11. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    FWIW, there are no studies from any source (regardless of political viewpoints) that have found voter fraud (whether intentional (rare) or accidental (less rare) to influence the outcome of any election.

    MODERATOR HAT OFF:

    Please don't carry this over to the other areas of the forum. There are literally MILLIONS of internet forums where political discussions are the norm, and the focus. Please let this webiste (aside from the Hangout Lounge, or some future sub forum) be a refuge for motorcyclists to talk about motorcycles, and enjoy that commonality.
    We all worked hard to build this community. Please refrain from working to tear it apart, even if by accident.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  12. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Because far too many adults have a fixed-mindset, and discussions tend to devolve into shouting matches. Differing opinions are expected, but open minds are a rarity.
     
  13. Minimutly

    Minimutly Well-Known Member

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    I may quote you with that again at some point @k-moe :)

    Re the politics dicussion, if nothing else it enlightens us non Americans.
     
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  14. Minimutly

    Minimutly Well-Known Member

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  15. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    States can, and have for a very long tiime ensured that only bana fide votes are counted. Voter fraud is quite literally a non-issue in the U.S., excepting for some who think that even members of their own party are willing to allow invalid votes to be counted.
     
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  16. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member

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    So if there’s majority of people living in sprawling urban and sub-urban space that’s a “minority,” but if you’re a minority spread out amongst empty space that’s a majority? And the point of the CGPGrey video is that the electoral college doesn’t protect small states from that. You could win with only the largest states and ignore the small ones.

    chacal answer me this, you got two ballots, did you vote twice? Do you know anyone that did (and report them to federal authorities)? There is no evidence of wide spread voter fraud, no matter what people “think” or “feel” happens. You need evidence, or it’s just conspiracy.

    And the four season? That’s some conspiracy? Trump’s campaign booked the event there, they just won’t admit that they likely made a mistake thinking it was the hotel. Who cares who they contribute to politically? That’s not illegal.

    I think it’s great that our members from other countries weigh in on our political process. It helps to get some outside perspective. When most of them are worried and concerned for us, I think it’s important to listen.

    We had a COVID discussion that got closed down on the general forum as well (and chacal got all of his last words in as a moderator). Some of us were trying to get out relevant information to stop its spread. Others were repeating conspiracy theories. Look where we are now.
     
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  17. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I only looked at that section - Commonly referred to as the Hammer and Scorecard - is it true, well it appears not.

    Lets just say it was disputed by:

    Christopher C. Krebs is the first and current Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency in the United States Department of Homeland Security, serving since November 2018.

    You will see his name in the below link warning of such claims and he can also be found on Twitter:

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hammer-scorecard-vote-counts/

    Well actually it requires a signature verification, and the biggest risk is it will be kicked out and not counted as signatures change over the years. Georgia does offer "curing" if it is rejected, but the time frame can be short and may not help.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiej...s-but-the-science-is-dubious/?sh=743c9fc07680

    Georgia also offers (like here in Florida) online status of the absentee ballot. If it is not marked accepted you can go to the precinct and vote. If there is any doubt by the election official at the precinct a provisional ballot can be filled out.

    https://www.acluga.org/en/check-your-absentee-ballot-status

    It's a really good system here in Florida, and it appears Georgia is not far behind. The biggest issue in some of the other swing states is when could they start counting absentee ballots. In Florida it is 22 day before the election, which prevents delay as absentee ballot canvassing and scanning just takes time - oh and Florida verifies signatures just like Georgia. In Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin the legislatures all opted out of counting the absentee ballots early. I don't know if they have a good reason to do this but it was widely predicted to expect Trump would lead early by large margins as he was very persuasive in getting out the vote and suggesting mail in ballots could not be trusted. Conversely, the Democratic party encouraged absentee ballot voting. Other swing states like Florida, Ohio, and North Carolina that allow early canvassing of the absentee ballots Biden took a substantial lead early as all the absentee ballots were first in line having already been counted, but were eventually overcome with what was an amazing get out and vote campaign by Trump - excepting they might be called superspreader events. Georgia, which was considered a swing state this election cycle does signature verification of absentee ballots on receipt, but does not allow scanning until election day. Consequently, this was another state where Trump had a big lead that was eventually overcome.

    https://www.ncsl.org/research/elect...ballot-processing-and-counting-can-begin.aspx
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
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  18. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Well, for anyone who doesn't believe that cheating and fraud are not merely commonplace, but endemic (in this country and many others), I don't know how to help you. Let's see, there's all of the big banks (worldwide), almost all the major automakers, again worldwide, the real estate industries, the courts, the police, the military, the medical industry, and the list goes on. But hey, it's a free country and you can choose to ignore what goes on around the world (here included); that's a profound statement, but not one that I would rush forward as my claim to fame.

    ManBot, I explained quite clearly in the "COVID" thread that I was typing out my reply when the thread became locked (unknown to me) ....that's how I "got all of his last words in". But they were great last words, if I say so myself! We can re-explore that issue at some other time, if you wish, but the data will continue to show what it has always shown, no matter how many times it is denied.

    In regards to the "majority of people" argument, it's a non-starter for those who actually understand the Constitution, why it was written, and what it was intended to accomplish andm perhaps more importantly, what it was intended to prevent. I referenced the major points in regards to those issue previously, so there's no need to go over them again; suffice it to say that this system has worked fairly well for quite some time, and if using a national "popular vote" is an improvement, then expect political parties/politicians to modify their strategies and activities to address those "new rules of engagement" just as they do with the current system (i.e. focus on high-electoral-vote states primarily). It's a non-winning strategy, short-sighted, and CPGrey even explicitly states (towards the end) that the real issue is whether a person/group wants power to reside "above, at the Federal level" or "below, at the state level". But remember, kids, the Federal government is a specific and unique CREATION of the states........not the other way around.

    No, I did not vote via mail-in ballot, and P.S.S. my lawn service (who is not affiliated with Four Seasons Landscaping) owner got 3 ballots. But go ahead and keep telling yourself that election fraud isn't pervasive, it might----maybe----help continue to cover up the elephants in the room, and will certainly help untold millions sleep better at night, without the need for Ambien or other pharmaceuticals......so, denial, in this case, is a good thing.

    Hey , I just remembered, didn't Stacey Abrams (who still seems to believe that she is the Governor) say that voter/election fraud is a serious, unaddressed problem in Georgia? Why yes, yes she did! So which is it?

    Snopes: should do an analysis of themselves. I would never trust a single word that a person like that says about anything, but that's just me.....if they said the sky was blue or the moon is white I'd have to re-evaluate everything that I see with my own eyes.

    Sure, they're just bumbling fools that can't tell the difference between the words "Landscaper" and "Hotel"! Curious people the world over might dig a little deeper to see whether it was a "mistake" or something more meaningful. Time will tell! Best not count your chickens (nor your rakes, mowers, weed whackers, etc.) before they hatch.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  19. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    No, it is no different than going in to vote, walking out and then trying to get in line again. The election official would say sorry, but you already voted. If you send in two ballots the first will be counted and your voter ID will be marked "voted." If you send in the second one not only are you risking being arrested for voter fraud but it's not going to be counted because you already voted. I don't know about you but I certainly am not going to risk committing a felony to elect some scumbag politician - just saying most of them are.
     
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  20. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Well guys, sometimes I get the impression that either you or I are living in an alternate reality, because you guys believe that the messy real world is kind of like a well-tuned Yamaha engine, where everything is precise, orderly, engineered to a level of precision just this side of perfection, and "rules" are followed to a "T", so that when this rod goes up that one goes down and precisely at this instant this valve opens while that one closes and the vacuum pistons rise just exactly this much when the needle on the gauge says 15 Hg/in. The world that I live in doesn't work that way, not even close. Trust, except for the misplaced variety, barely exists at almost all levels, and this type of condition starts from the top down, and then like a wet blanket, smothers everything. Especially anything involving: a) money, or b) politics, and c) really, those two choices are sort of redundant, because they both are just different aspects of that thing called "power", and power doesn't respect truth, justice, honesty, or any other ideal, no matter how strongly nor how many times Hollywood pretends that it does.

    Let me just conclude with this thought: if you set up a system (any type of system) that, by design or ignorance or any combo thereof, allows fraud to occur, then it will. This is Sociology 101. And if it then occurs, and nothing serious is done to expose and/or prevent it, it will continue to occur, and will finally devolve to the point where fraud and corruption is the common state of affairs, and honesty is just seen as a rare and curious relic of some long-forgotten, idyllic past, something that the History Channel will "explore" on shows between Ancient Aliens and Ice-Road-Truckers programming.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
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