Electrical problem and questions??

I finally finished putting the bike back together after changing out the fuse box and several other small things were done to the bike. Now when I turn on the key the brake light will just come on and stay on and will not get brighter when the brakes are used and the turn signals will kind of work flash a few times slowly the just stay on when used. The biggest problem is that nothing happens when I try to start the bike absolutely nothing? I started to look at the start button and the engine on off switch and with the key on one of the R/W wires has almost 12 volts going to it the other R/W wire has .06 power to it and the Blue/white wire connected to the start button has .04 power to it and black ground has -0.00 do these numbers sound right to you am I looking in the right places for this kind of problem.. I don know where to start looking or what to look at to resolve this problem I'm lost and afraid now please help with suggestions on what to do and how thank you so much..

 

The bike is on its center stand would this have anything to do with it not doing anything when tried to start??

 

Got a couple of issues there. Let's get the starter working first.

Start by disconnecting the start switch at the connector behind the headlight. Put your meter across the switch side of the connector and measure the resistance with the button pushed in and out. It should be very high with it out and very low in. Do the same with the ignition kill switch and main ignition switch. Regarding your readings you need to remember that one side of the circuit will be at battery voltage and the other side will be at ground (zero).

You need to work through the circuit in a methodical manner, and there's a lot to check ....

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=32483.html

Enlist the help of a friend or relative who can help you figure out the wiring circuits and explain how to interpret what the meter is telling you.

Not sure about your lights but it sounds like a bad earth. Double check the new connections you made to the fuse box.

 

So the bike being on the center stand has nothing to do with the starting issue?

 

As long as the side stand is up, no. Only the side stand has a switch, the center stand does not.

 

I performed the resistance test as suggested and the button seems fine it was 30.4 with the button out and 0.0 with the button pushed in so I think all is good with the start button.. The engine kill switch and run switch did not change that much both wires were consistent on off the reading was 7.5 and in the run position 6.9 is this not good? If these reading sound good were now to get this beast running? Starting to get worried that this might be a parts bike..

 

OK. Let's start with basics and work out from there.

Get some jumper wires with gator clips on the end of them, like Radio Shack has.

1. Turn the key on (bike in neutral and up on center stand)
2. Connect one end of a jumper to the battery + terminal
3. Disconnect the Red/White wire from the starter solenoid and connect the other end of the jumper to that terminal (on the starter solenoid)
4. Push the starter switch on the handle bars
5. Does it crank? If so, your switch, switch wiring, and solenoid are good, and there's a problem with the safety circuit or the supply to the starter cut out relay.
6. If it didn't crank: Connect a second jumper to battery -
7. Remove the Blue/White wire from the starter solenoid and touch the other end of the second jumper to that terminal
8. Does it crank? If so, your solenoid is good, and there's a problem with the starter switch or the wiring to it.
9. If it still didn't crank, it's probably the starter solenoid or the battery or battery wiring - try this: take a screwdriver you don't care about too much and use it to short together the large terminals of the solenoid... if it's not cranking now, then you've got a bad battery, bad starter, or bad high current wiring (ground strap, etc).

Let us know what you find from here.

 

Thanks I will give all of this info a try and will get back to you Thank You

 

Your kill switch is dirty. It should behave just like the start button. And 30.9 ohms is still low, unless it is 30.9 kohms or Mohms (that's thousands and millions of them). They both need to open and close, on and off, before you can eliminate them.

 

How can I clean the kill switch if that could be my problem?? The connections on the wires looked clean what else is there to clean on the kill switch to make it functional again? thank you

 

Remove the switch "pod" and take it over to your workbench and carefully take it apart. All of the "guts" are held together with screws; it can be disassembled and the contacts cleaned (and then lubed with silicone grease.) Just pay careful attention to what goes where and how the wires were routed.

 

In reading back up the thread, I think you completely missed the point in regard to the sidestand and neutral switches. If the bike thinks the sidestand is down, or in gear, it WILL NOT LET YOU turn the motor over. If the sidestand is up, it WILL let the motor turn over in gear, but ONLY if the clutch is pulled in.

Have you unlplugged the safety relay as a test to see if it will then allow you to start the bike?

 

I tried the suggestions that SQLguy suggested only one that worked to crank the bike was shorting together the two terminals to crank the bike and the bike would crank but would not start tried a few times but would definatly crank the engine. I did remove the side stand relay which did not help anything. So what next I'm losing hope with this bike Thanks for all the help..

 

OK. One thing for sure is that you need a new starter solenoid.

Once you've got that changed, we can see what else needs attention.

If you want to get one quick. a number of members have reported good results using a solenoid meant for lawnmowers - from a local auto parts or hardware store.

 

I have a new starter solenoid that was one of the new parts I have bought for the bike. I used both solenoids for the tests with bad results and only shorted the old solenoid to crank the engine in fear of messing up the new one.. maybe the test wires aren't heavy duty to carry the power that was needed for the tests thats why bad results I tried shorting with the gator clips on with no success but would short and crank with the original equipment on the solenoid? I bought the test wires from radio shack test-lead wires with gator clips on them the only ones they really had. SO I have a new solenoid did I possibly do the tests wrong?? Thank you

 

The Radio Shack test jumpers should be easily able to carry the current needed to energize the solenoid. I'd say to double-check the test.

To separate out that one test, it's Red/White and Blue/White disconnected from the solenoid; jumper from battery + to where the Red/White was attached, and jumper from battery - to where the Blue/White was attached. The solenoid should click, and the starter should crank.

One thing you also might check, though, is to pull back the covers on the alligator clips and make sure the wires are crimped well to the clips. I have seen where these crimps were not tight and caused a bad connection in the jumper.

 

The sidestand relay isn't the relay I was talking about. It's only part of the equation. It shuts off the TCI, but it's not what keeps the bike from turning over. There is a "main" safety relay, also called the "starting cutoff relay" that I was suggesting you unplug.

I still suggest that you unplug it and see what happens.

 

Unplugging the starter cutoff relay isn't going to help things. The starter cutoff relay provides power to the solenoid, rather than blocking it; with it removed, the solenoid will never engage.

The steps I gave him included directly jumpering power (and ground) to the solenoid, so include checks that would narrow down whether that relay is part of the problem.

 

I have repeated the steps SQLGuy suggested with no good results on any of them, again I don't see how I could be doing these test incorrectly. The relay solenoid can still be shorted to crank the engine still if I wanted to though that's the only way the starter will engage.. So I'm still puzzled on whats going on with this bike any more suggestions would be great Thank You

 

Agreed. But you can unplug the safety relay and start the bike. It's how I tracked down my flaky sidestand switch.

 

I have tried both the side stand relay and the starter cut-off relay in and out with the tests with no good results. So now I'm lost again with no hope Please help Thank You

 

Either you have a bad NEW solenoid, or you have bad jumpers.

You can test the jumpers by connecting one end of one to battery +, one end of a second one to battery -, then holding the other end of one against the base of an XJ tail lamp or turn signal lamp (1156 or 1157) and touch the other to the (or one of the) tips of the bulb. If the bulb doesn't light, then it's bad jumpers. If the bulb lights fine, it's a bad new solenoid.

Fitz, I was responding to the post that you made saying you were not talking about unplugging the safety relay, but the starter cutoff relay. I totally agree that the safety relay can be unplugged for testing.

 

I checked the jumpers, connected one to + one to - of the battery. Then put the - end wire on the XJ base to ground out then would touch the tip of the bulb were the contact point is with the + wire and the bulb would not light. Did I do this correctly? The test wires are kind of thin?

 

Oh I've been thinking when you say R/W and L/W wires disconnect them and then use the jumpers on the terminal of the relay, I dont have those wires on the terminals just a solid red wire on top of terminal with a with a metal conductor piece that is connected to the + side of the battery and the other terminal has a large solid black wire that runs straight to a post the comes out of the starter like a ground or something? There is a R/W and a L/W that comes out of the relay that has been soddered in the relay R/w looks like the hot side + Does sound correct very confused why this stuff isn't working???? Thanks for all the help

 

I do have the wires coming out of the relay R/W L/W going to the correct plug didnt want you to think that could be disconnected

 

There are a number of conditions you can be dealing with.

The Starter's Commutator might be Carbon Fouled and unable to energize because the dust is so thick it's just sending the Current to Ground.

You may need Brushes for the Starter.

Remove the Starter.
Secure it or have someone hold it tight.
Put +12V to the Power Post.
Ground the Body or a Bolt.
Starter Spins = Y
Starter OK
Starter Does Not Spin -- Its the Starter.

 

Rick, he's already verified, a few posts back, that when jumpering the high-current terminals of the solenoid, the starter cranks. So, the starter is OK, or at least not part of the problem we're trying to track down.

Smokey, if you were touching the one wire to the base of the bulb and the other to the contact tip and it didn't light, you have a problem with your jumpers.

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. When I touch the yellow wire to the battery -, my engine cranks, because I am directly energizing the solenoid.

 

And here's one more picture showing the Red/White and Blue/White wires I am talking about that connect to the coil of the solenoid.

BTW, when I connected my jumpers, I used some spade terminals to plug into the connector. I don't know whether 650's use the same kind of modular connector for the solenoid.

 

Yes I misunderstood your directions now that I understand I will test again in the morning and hopefully will report with better results thank you so much for the great pics and all the help your a life saver and can give a man hope Thanks again

 

I have concluded that the problem is with the starter switch or wiring to it. So once again I'm not sure what to do any help would be great Thank you.

 

The starter switch has a Blue/White wire running to it. This is carried through a six-pin plug four pins populated. The plug/socket is probably in the headlight bucket.

I would first start by opening up the switch itself to the point that you can see where the Blue/White wire connects to it. Then turn on the key, take a jumper running to chassis or battery (-), and touch it to the contact where the Blue/White wire attaches to the switch. If this cranks, then you know you have a bad switch or bad ground for the switch. Next step then would be to attach the jumper to the other terminal of switch and see whether switch works when pushed. If it does, it's a bad ground... it it doesn't, it's a bad switch. A bad switch may not need anything more than cleaning (with electrical contact cleaner) and maybe a light sanding of the contacts with some fine (like 1000 grit) sandpaper. If cleaning/sanding fixes it, make sure to apply some dielectric grease before reassembly, to protect it from moisture.

 

Take an hour and troubleshoot.
You need a good Test Light and some patience.

Start by getting one of these.
http://www.rjtwholesale.com/automotive- ... an-72.html

Put a sharp, needle-point on the Probe, ... so you can pierce the insulation on a wire with ease.
Wear a leather patch taped to your finger, ... so you don't get needle-bit every time you test a wire.

Test the "Path" of the +12V Current from the Battery -- to the Ignition Switch -- and from the Ignition Switch along the Circuit that Starts the Bike.

Eventually, you'll be testing the Switch operation.
It the Switch check-out OK, ... you stay on the Circuit until you wind-up either determining that the Circuit is Good -- or, find the Short.

Sometimes it only takes 10 or 15 minutes.
It's those "Other times" ... that take -- l-o-n-g-e-r, that work on you.

 

I tried the test SQlguy suggested for the switch with no good results would not trip the solenoid either test. When I would hit the the RW wire with the jumpers from the - it just blow my 10 amp ignition fuse that's all no crank don't have a chance to hit the start button. With the key on what kind of volts should I have with the two RW wires and blue white wire and the two wires to the solenoid relay. I'm waiting for my battery to charge to run some more test and figure this out hopefully. A battery that likes to stay around 12.6 volts couldn't be causing this could it I've have tried most of these test with the battery at 13.0 volts. One more thing what should the battery be at with the key on and trying to start ? Thanks to any help on this long post

 

The battery will not be to blame.
The battery only supplies the source of current.

You have to trace the Path the current takes from the Battery to the Starter and find what is causing the blown fuse.

If you don't have time to Troubleshoot because the Fuse blows almost immediately, ... look for any "Non-OEM" wiring, taped-up splices and "Funny-looking PO-Mods along the wiring harness and see if undoing those mods eliminates the short.

 

After a lot of investigation I have full power with the key on to the rw wire everywhere except one of the two rw wires in the kill switch which was around 0.60 volts going to it and at the plug that goes to the relay it also had around0.60 volts I think this is the wire that supplys all the power to my situation so I followed it with no luck everything I think looked ok volt wise unless I'm supposed to have it at the relay plug? The BW wire in the start button had 0.30 volts out and 0.60 pushed in and even the black wire in the 0.60volts to it which was weird isn't supposed to be the ground -0.00? does this stuff sound right or am I just confusing myself. I can jump the solenoid with jumpers to crank the engine so I know thats good I'm going crazy that I can't figure this out.. Thanks for all of you help and suggestions..

 

My suggestion would be to follow the tests I laid out in my previous post and share what you find from that:

"The starter switch has a Blue/White wire running to it. This is carried through a six-pin plug four pins populated. The plug/socket is probably in the headlight bucket.

I would first start by opening up the switch itself to the point that you can see where the Blue/White wire connects to it. Then turn on the key, take a jumper running to chassis or battery (-), and touch it to the contact where the Blue/White wire attaches to the switch. If this cranks, then you know you have a bad switch or bad ground for the switch. Next step then would be to attach the jumper to the other terminal of switch and see whether switch works when pushed. If it does, it's a bad ground... it it doesn't, it's a bad switch. A bad switch may not need anything more than cleaning (with electrical contact cleaner) and maybe a light sanding of the contacts with some fine (like 1000 grit) sandpaper. If cleaning/sanding fixes it, make sure to apply some dielectric grease before reassembly, to protect it from moisture."

 

When you say next attach jumper to other terminal of switch? Because the other test doesn't do anything ? Thanks

 

OK. To verify we're at the same point:

1. The switch is currently connected?
2. The switch is currently disassembled to the point where you can attach a jumper to where the Blue/White wire comes into it?
3. The key is "on"?

If all of these are true, and you get nothing when jumpering from Blue/White to ground, you're either not getting a good ground, or the Blue/White wire is broken or has a bad connection somewhere between the switch and the solenoid.

Where are you getting ground for the jumper?

Have you checked the connector (probably in the headlight bucket) that carries the Blue/White wire from the solenoid to the starter switch?

 

Yes to all your questions I am getting my ground for the jumper from the - side of the battery and yes the connector has been checked and seems to be fine? What voltage should be going threw the wires with the key on? Now I have noticed that I'm not even getting spark at the plug when I'm jumping the starter and it cranks over the engine but no fire from the plug WTF..

 

With the key on, you should be reading battery voltage on the Blue/White until you attach the jumper.

You should also be reading battery voltage at the Red/White at the solenoid with the key on.

To sum it up:

With the jumper attached between ground and the Blue/White of the start switch and the key on, you should be reading battery voltage at the solenoid Red/White and 0V on the Blue/White at the solenoid.

Possibilities here:

1. You have battery voltage on solenoid R/W and 0V on solenoid L/W and it's still not cranking means the solenoid is bad - but you had already verified it was working, so this should not be the case

2. You have 0V on solenoid L/W but must less than battery voltage on solenoid R/W means that the fuse box, ignition switch, or starter cutout are the problem - but you had already verified these as well

3. (Most likely, I hope) - You have battery voltage on solenoid R/W and battery voltage on solenoid L/W, which means that the Blue/White wire is broken somewhere between the solenoid and the starter switch. If that's the case, you can verify by running a jumper from solenoid L/W to switch L/W, instead of the one from battery -, and the starter switch should work correctly.

 

With the key on I'm not reading battery voltage on the blue/white wire on the switch it reads .035 and with the button pushed in .065 why is this ?

 

Because you didn't follow the steps in the previous post to measure at the solenoid to figure out where you have a break in the starter circuit.

 

I guess I'm just not understanding this crap tomorrow after work I will attach a jumper cable one side to a ground - and the other side to the L/W at the end of the start button plug the end that would go to the solenoid. With the key on where should I now put the multimeter to get a reading should I take the switch apart and get the reading there ? God I hate this stuff

 

1. Key on
2. Jumper from battery -, or known good ground, to starter button Blue/White
3. Measure voltage between battery - and solenoid Red/White (should be 12V or so)
4. Measure voltage between battery - and solenoid Blue/White (should be close to 0)

Tell me the readings from 3 and 4 and we can go from there.

Thanks,
Paul

 

Ok I hope I m doing this right jumper from - of battery to start button plug that would go to the solenoid connect to the blue/white of that plug. the readings with the key on from the solenoid plug blue/white was 0.00 and so was the red/white 0.00 from that plug the solenoid plug that is. But there was power to the red/white terminal and no power to what would be the blue white terminal I tried these test on two solenoids one new one and one that was on the bike before and worked fine before I started to take the bike apart. So what does this mean ?

 

I don't understand what you mean by saying there was 0V on the Red/White terminal, but there was power on the Red/White terminal.

There should only be one Red/White involved: this is the connection that goes from the harness to one side of the solenoid. If there was 0 Volts on this, then you have a problem on the supply side of the solenoid. In previous tests you said you had 12V here. Maybe you're reading 12V here without the jumper connected and 0V once the jumper is connected? If that's the case, then you have a bad (high resistance) connection somewhere upstream, like in the fuse box, starter bypass relay, or ignition switch.

 

At the terminal I have power . There is no power at the plug. That would go to the start button is wlhat I'm saying.

 

What goes to the start button is Blue/White.

So, please confirm:

1. You have a jumper connected between battery - and Blue/White at the start button
2. You have 12V at the Red/White at the solenoid
3. It's not cranking at that point

If all of these are true, then this would confirm that you have a broken connection on the Blue/White wire between the solenoid and the start button.

If all of these are true, my next step, to verify this conclusion would be to connect the jumper instead between Blue/White at the start button and Blue/White at the solenoid, and verify that the start button now works.