Galfer Stainless Steel Brake Lines

In the midst of this hurricane, I am encouraged. I just ordered a set of stainless steel brake lines for my 1982 XJ750 RJ Seca with the goofy (I mean innovative) anti-dive for $123 delivered to my house. I consider this to be a very good value. The kit should come with crush washers and banjo bolts. I ordered it from Tim Mayhew at pasnit.com. I will follow this up with a full report once the kit arrives....

 

In the world of program management there is the saying "Good, fast, or cheap; pick two". Meaning, if you want it good and fast it won't be cheap. Alternately, if you want it cheap and good, you won't get it fast...

While not always the case, this has proved true for my Galfer brake lines. I received the kit today; 15 days after ordering, and missing one banjo bolt . A quick call to Galfer and the bolt is on the way (so I'm told).
Fast (delivery): NO

Cheap (price): Yes ; At $123 delivered, this 4 line kit is half the cost of XJ4Ever, and significantly less than Spiegler ($185 plus shipping).

Good (quality): Yes : Galfer is a quality US manufacturer of brake lines (and other brake components), and the lines are top notch. They are also fully "clockable", so the clocking issue is a non-issue. Additionally, they carry a lifetime warranty; a warranty from a company that's been in the motorcycle brake business since 1946.

As for question of whether the entire lines, not just the components, "are DOT": NO. However, as per the below from their website, they can be if you live somewhere that requires this CERTIFICATION or if you wish to PAY MORE MONEY FOR "NO MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE". IMO, unless you live somewhere where its required, the "DOT" certification issue is nothing more than marketing... I digress.

Galfer on DOT:
"DOT Brake Line Kits:
Although providing no mechanical advantage on a motorcycle brake system, some countries require this extra automotive certification. Most of Galfer’s brake line kits are available as DOT brake line kits upon request. These kits feature regular Galfer bolts, fittings and washers with an extra plastic boot at each end of the line, certified to FMVSS 106 and ISO 3996 standards. Like our standard line kits, Galfer DOT option carries a lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects. Kits come complete with new banjo bolts and crush washers for a complete installation."

Pics to follow.

 

Pictures:

 

new lines look nice, got em on yet? pics then!

 

Non-DOT-approved brake lines are illegal for street use in all 50 states (and probably most of Canada) regardless of whether there is a state safety certification/inspection program or not.

Just remember that if you're in an accident that involves any type of brake issue, and it is discovered that non-DOT approved brake system components are used, then it's quite possible that you could be deemed at fault (regardless of whether you are) and/or insurance benefits denied.

Perhaps the "marketing hype" actually comes from the manufacturers of brake lines that don't/won't/couldn't take the time and expense to get their lines certified?

P.S. the "lifetime warranty" is really a LIMITED lifetime warranty, *call for details.......

More weasel words: there is "no mechanical advantage" means: what? What type of "mechanical advantage" could a brake line have? If it means pressure rating or capacity, then that is certainly true. If it means that the DOT forbids them on street-driven vehicles, then that is not true. The DOT approval is primarily based on the so-called "whip test" of the brake line assembly (and not of the hose or the end fitting itself); it's designed to insure that the method of fixing the hose to the end fittings doesn't result in the fitting slowly "eating into" and thru the outer or the braided stainless sheath and allowing a weakening or rupturing of the (rather fragile) teflon tube.

THIS IS THE ISSUE THAT THE DOT STANDARD REALLY ADDRESSES, and it does so for a reason: for street vehicles, where inspection and maintenance and replacement of parts (including brake lines) is much less stringent than in, say, professional racing use, the constant flex of the brake lines at these pivot points (where the hose is attached to the end fittings) is the typical source of failure.....and, it is typically sudden and catastrophic failure, and will usually occur just when you need it most...a high (maximum) fluid pressure "panic stop" type situation.

We could offer non-DOT-approved brake lines for about half the price, too. REAL QUALITY COSTS MORE. Some people do value money more than safety, and can paint pretty pictures and make persuasive arguments about why you should, too. In most of the world, that type of mindset is excused as "marketing"........

It's that "two type of oats" kinda thing. We use and sell DOT-approved lines. Those are the type that are used to FEED the horse.

 

"If you're in an accident..." "it's quite possible..." What's the term you used... Weasel words?

Absolutely not "weasel words"; it means that they are THE SAME LINES as the ones with the DOT stamp.

Is the inference here that Galfer brake lines are horse feed? If so, I am beginnig to wonder where this forum is being hosted from; maybe Jonestown... Some great folks and information sharing here, but no Kool-Aid for me thank you.

 

Check with your insurance carrier/underwriter/agent, and make sure you let him know that you are using non-DOT approved brake system components, I'm sure he'll give you a clearer, more concise answer, and will mince no words at all.

The HOSE and the END FITTINGS are probably indeed the same; but the entire line assembly is ABSOLUTELY not the same. The DOT certification process is rigorous and costs $$, which is why most shops do not apply for it. "Racing" and "off-road use" are not regulated by DOT, and that is where the majority of sales of these products are targeted at/for.

No, it means that the two different type of lines (DOT vs. non-DOT) are apples and oranges. I'm sure that Gafler lines perform admirably for their intended purpose. But that purpose....for their non-DOT lines.....is not for street vehicles.

 

Check with your insurance carrier? Seriously Len?

I asked Galfer to comment on this issue, and received an e-mail from Sandro Milesi, head of Galfer USA, and grandson of Galfer founder. While many on this site may disagree with me, when it comes to motorcycle brakes, I will take his word over yours...

--------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Rick,
I've read some of the postings, clearly some clarifications are needed. I also hope you were spared from to much damage from the hurricane...

First of, thanks for buying our hose kit ! 2nd, how did we miss sending a bolt ?? I will need to check with the warehouse to make sure the dxf drawings show all the necessary hardware..

About DOT or Non DOT: Let's first make sure its clear that the hose, banjos or equipment used to make a DOT certified hose or a non DOT certified hose is exactly the same in each hose system, dot or non dot.

The DOT test, or FMVSS106, requires a hose to pass several tests, pressure, rain salt, whipping and so forth. On one the requirements on this specification (FMVSS106) is to make sure the hose is labeled as DOT (because you certify it meets their testing requirements) and that a company logo or name is on the hose, this I imagine, is in case the hose was to be proven to be at fault on an accident, that the manufacturer could be identified rapidly.

So, back to Galfer hoses, we offer 2 types, those that are manufactured under the dot specs and thus these comply with every requirement on the FMVSS106 list of requirements, or hose kits that are made with the same exact banjo fittings, machines and production folks as on a DOT hose but are considered technically not DOT approved because they are missing one thing, and one thing only, the DOT boot.

Yes, that's the only difference ! the DOT boot. This is at least on our case, meaning we do not have 2 type of banjos or 2 type of hoses, DOT or non DOT, all we have is DOT and SAE as well as ISO3996, each of our brake hoses pass the same exact tests and burst pressures, each are also covered by our manufacturing liability insurance, that by the way we have never had to use, ever...

So, why go dot or non dot you would say ? Totally personal preference, do you want a DOT boot on your hose, then ask for DOT, do you prefer not getting that ?

See attached a sample of a DOT compliant hose, the only difference between this one and the ones you have ? The DOT boot on it. That's all.

As per the comment on limited lifetime warranty, I'm not sure why this would even come up, but, just for the sake of clarifying, Galfer hoses are COMPLETELY covered for a lifetime as long as you own them. That's for ANY SITUATION, your fault or ours, or even someone else's, any issues are completely covered. Why ? Well, keep in mind that we try making sure the hoses are made to last a lifetime BUT, we are also aware that things do happen, and we are not only manufacturers of brake hoses but also brake pads and brake rotors, now, If I treated you well with my brake lines chances are you are going to think of us in a positive manner and this might encourage you to possibly be open to think of buying Galfer pads or rotors... So, yes, we stand behind our quality but also our overall product line service.

Finally, what if you sold the bike and one of the hoses broke 6 months later for the new owner? All we would do is see how did that happen, meaning, is it our product's fault ? Design issue ? If its not, and the new owner simply broke it, they have the choice to get a new hose at $15 each from us as a replacement, this is what I call a replacement hose not free, but near free... Again, trying to help out but not giving the house away for free if you know what I mean....

So, rest assure, we do our homework, we have been open since 1946 when my grandfather got on his head he wanted to make brakes... We are still open and with one simple philosophy and that still is to manufacture the best possible product with the best possible materials, no excuses. Yes, our hoses compared to other brands sometimes will be a few more dollars, but
believe me, we have things very well organized in here, we know well what we offer and we always stand behind it 1000%.

I hope this helps, let me know if you need any more info !

Take care
Respectfully,

Sandro Milesi
Galfer Braking Systems, N.A Division.

 

This thread seems like its dig on Len (chacal). Reading between the lines here Rick you brought this whole thread before us because you don't like Len's prices for the product he offers. That's great you have found an alternative source for brake lines and actually the pricing seems too good to be true. However saber rattling with Len is not a good thing. Len has gone to great lengths to provide information and most of his parts are cheaper than the local dealers I have acquired parts from in the past.
My opinion is this, I buy parts from Len to support his business. It's not always about price. That's my option and many others here may or may not do the same thing. I respect the willingness and effort on your part to try a product on your bike that may work for you. I hope to see installed pictures and a report that backs up the company claims.

MN

Just a side note here. One of my friends was running his 1970 Chevelle on the street with his drag slicks and the skinny fronts that he uses at the drag strip. An old lady ran a stop sign and nailed him in the quarter panel. The cops gave him a ticket for running non DOT tires and the ladies insurance company refused the claim because of the non DOT tires. Not sure if brake lines would apply but my friend got screwed by the insurance company because of a non DOT loop hole. Remember the insurance company will look for anything to get out of paying a claim. (I think that's what Len was trying to tell you)

 

I read you loud and clear. Questioning Len is not to be tolerated on this (Len's??) forum. I will cease and desist...

 

do DOT approved brake lines say DOT on them? sorry for a dumb question (if it is) but i'm at the office and my bike is at home so I can't check myself.

I would see it hard to believe if DOT approved brake lines didn't say they were DOT approved on the lines themselves; However, IF dot approved brake lines did not specifically stamp on the brake lines that they were approved, then how could anyone prove they were dot approved or not?

I just feel this thread has gone beyond what Rick was trying to share.

 

Moellear,

Naw Bru, pretty simple...Galfer sells the same exact ss brake lines with or w/o DOT certification and a lifetime warranty against defect. The non-DOT brake lines are less expensive. Rick bought the non-DOT certified brake lines. I believe Len is saying the non-DOT stamped brake lines would be fine in certain applications (like racing), however, running non-DOT stamped brake lines on the street is illegal in ALL 50 states and that insurance issues may arise should the brake lines become a factor in the event of a accident. IMHO had Rick bought the same exact ss brake lines with the DOT stamp we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Gary

 

Why yes Rick, Man-Who-Digs-Deep-To-Reveal-All-Truth, go ahead, give it a try, man up and put your money where your mouth is and report back to us. You had no problem with writing to the seller and taking their word, so why not write to your insurance company, too? C'MON RICK, IT'S JUST A FEW KEYSTROKES ON YOUR COMPUTER, AND WE'RE ALL WAITING TO HEAR THEIR RESPONSE TO YOU.

And why is that? The company that makes our brakes has been in business for over 50 years, and makes hi-pressure lines (10K+ psi) hydraulic lines for earth-moving equipment, among other things.

The REAL issue is that you want to create a shadow of a doubt among people about MY integrity by calling me a liar and a carnival-barker, all in a weak, passive-aggressive manner.

ME: the hoses and the end fittings are DOT approved and is never the issue.

GAFLER: the hoses and the end fittings are DOT approved and is never the issue.

The difference between DOT and non-DOT hoses involves a number of different factors, one of the major ones is the TESTING of the assembled hose; each individual unit (not a random sample) must be tested to verify its worthiness, and then it is machine-stamped with a DOT code on the fittings as verification of test passage. The end BOOT (actually, it's a SUPPORT, but I'm sure that you and Gafler knows that) is a necessary but not sufficient difference. If the only difference was a cheap little boot, then why doesn't Gafler make all their lines in that manner? That would certainly put any issues to rest, now wouldn't it?


Let me state again that I have no issues with Gafler, the company or the people there. Like I've said before, it's an apples vs. oranges issue and it is you that is trying to paint an "it's all the same apple" picture which is simply not true. YOU are the person who is trying to be mis-leading, and I'm calling you on it.

In the 60 days or so since you've been a member, that's pretty much all you've done. Then, it's on to questioning my integrity and honesty. P.S. it's not my forum, but you know that, too..........just another one of your childish games, I suppose.

Moellear, ALL brake hose is DOT-approved, or at least, should be. It would be insane for any manufacturer to use brake hose....the hose itself......that is not approved, they might as well send along the phone number to their legal firm along with the product to make things easier for everyone.....

Same goes for end fittings.

It's not the component pieces that are at issue, it's the manner in which they are assembled into a final brake hose assembly and then tested that makes the difference.

 

gotcha.

I wasn't sure if DOT brake hoses themselves did have "DOT" stamps written on them and non-DOT approved lines didn't have stamps on them. that's all. like I said, I would've gone out to check on my bike before posting earlier its just the bike is sadly put away in the stable

this thread makes me wanna go out and investigate my brake hoses out now. I suppose its something I've probably overlooked lol

 

I guess I don't understand why this is such a big blow up over nothing. So you want to rail Len about his prices and parade around and say you found something cheaper...Great Job RickB, you suceeded.

 

Typically (as reviewed above) the answer is YES, the brake hose will have the DOT and FMVSS106 standard reference inked onto the line (rubber) or onto the sheathing (on the braided s/s lines). However, almost ALL aftermarket brake hose will be DOT-approved; but it's not really the hose that is the issue.

How can you tell whether a completed brake hose assembly is DOT approved? The end fittings (which are crimped onto the end of the hose) will also have a code (letters/numbers/characters) that also gets impressed into the end fitting during the crimping operation. This code is the DOT-issued ID code for the particular brake line manufacturer. This code can/will/should only appear on (the end fittings) of completed hose units that are DOT approved.

 

That, and he's just being a dick about it.

Maybe you should "cease and desist" coming here.

It's not Len's forum by any means; the owner (SnoSherriff) is located in Canada, and pays for the site out of his own pocket. You are a GUEST here.

We had a user who went by "ArizonaSteve"; as the name implied, he resided in Phoenix. Four years ago, someone put up a thread about DynaBeads. Steve proclaimed them to be a scam, claimed they worked on faith, and refused to consider any opinions to the contrary.

Before that, he revealed he was a fan of putting acetone in your gas tank to extend mileage. When called out on his claims, he proclaimed those who disagreed with him to be in the pay of Big Oil.

He doesn't come here anymore.

 

I hate trolls.....

 

To tell the truth, Rick, you're coming across like a child who has just figured out his parents were "technically" wrong about some inane detail.
Congratulations!
You found a great deal for yourself and perhaps others...but why on earth are you trying to drag someone who has only added a benefit (albeit for a profit...but there is nothing wrong with that...our economy is built on business for profit) to the community?
Because you don't like his prices? Seriously? Is your life that pathetic?
Grow up Dude...act like a man. You don't need to take down someone else to elevate yourself...
I, personally would have liked to read about how you found an alternative supplier, and left it at that.
Good thing this is a public forum....so I can express my opinion too.

 

I haven't been here very long but this is the second thread that I read that has degraded to this petty level...

I'm going to go on the record saying that this isn't cool. XJBikes, Len and probably 99% of the folks on here are here to learn and help. Each individual has the right to accept advice or find their own path; however at the end of the day it is everybodys OBLIGATION to respect one another. This is a free forum and if somebody chooses to be negative and drag people down and think they know better, go make your own forum.

Len, yup you're not the cheapest supplier and I don't always go to you to get parts - but dude, you're a wealth of knowledge and you've always come through when I needed you. That's more than I could ask for. Just wanted to say thank you.

On a side note - I'm an Aerospace Engieer with background as a maintenance officer and in flight test. Certification IS A HUGE DEAL, and it's not enough to have an email from a manufacturer saying "it's good to go". Yup these aren't airplanes but considering the amount of rubber on the road, I'm not taking any chances. My 2 cents.

 

i find it hard to believe that if there was a motorcycle accident that the insurance company or anyone would comb over the bike to be sure the brake lines were dot approved, just my 2 cents and i could be wrong,

personally i have braided stainless lines on all my bikes that were bought from a reputable vendor that i have been dealing with long before i discovered this forum and they are dot approved and race proven according to the manufacturer

just dont know its worth getting heated over guys, cant we all get along?

 

Me either. I'll take that 2 cents and raise you the cost of a lengthy hospital stay...

NO thanks. Besides, I needed custom lines and the turn-around time plus the stock clocking was well worth it.

danielcarver47, you don't know very many lawyers, do you? Wanna bet?

Back to Len and XJ4Ever: My '83 wouldn't have been possible without him. It now has almost 10K miles on it since it went back on the road; and I couldn't be happier. I'll be the first to admit, not all of the parts on the bike came from Len. But certain critical ones did and still do. See pic below. (Note SS lines and floating rotor disc, turn signals and a whole lot of things you can't see.)

I can't take 100% credit for something that I had help with; I have to give credit where credit is due. As do a whole lot of fellow members. RickB, don't feel you're being "shouted down" but please take a look at how long some of the folks who sing the praises of XJ4Ever have been here; and understand the reaction you're getting.

Fitz out.

 

Oh wow, that's got to be the prettiest XJ I've seen so far! Must've taken quite a bit of work!

 

I'll second that ! tis very pretty

 

Wow this thread has heated up.

In reality, non DOT Galfer lines would exceed the spec of your original lines.

Legal and safe are not the same.

In Australia DOT approved lines do not meet our Legal requirements, we have to have AS (Australian Standard).

So to avoid any legal issues (and to fly through the licence inspection) I had lines made up locally - tested to 4 billion PSI and with a bloody batch number just for my lines (can take pic of that part of the line).



As for people defending Len, I am trying not going to get involved. But as someone who has stripped an XJ down to its last nut, bolt and wire. I have voted with my wallet.

If you buy Tyres and brake lines fine, go ebay. If you NEED XJ parts for a serious rebuild, Lens expertise and stock holding shines. If Len tries to stock everything needed, sometimes some items may not compete.

I appreciate what Len tries to do, and understand why some people are hostile when you question his integrity over a few LIMITED stock items. Can that brake line seller sell you a side grab handle for a 750 Seca?

Len sold me one

 

The DOT standard is an interesting one here in Aus.
I went and spoke to my local bike mechanic and settled on Venhill brake lines as they met the requirements. ( DOT, TUV and whatever else a government department could dream up ***sigh*** )
I'll be putting my XJ on club plates and it needs to be squeaky clean for that....

As for Len... well, I call him Quickdraw...damn quick responses and fine customer service. I dont mind paying a bit for that !

 

The author of this thread doesn't care about DOT or NON DOT brake lines. The point he is trying to make is that he feels the lines he found are just plainly cheaper than Len's.
the argument here is are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges. It really only makes a difference if the person buying these parts gets into some kind of accident and the insurance company gets involved there could be an issue. Chances of that happening are pretty slim, however it only takes one instance to create a liability issue. Take the risk at your own level of tolerance. I don't think anyone is going to become a grease spot on the road because of these brake lines. Personally I'll use only DOT approved safety parts on the bikes I ride. Just personal preference nothing more and nothing less.

 

dark fibre.. i checked AS as well b4 getting braided and got a US equivalent grading - after some innanet checking - forgotten th #'s now. And yeah i don't get common stuff from Len but he's got what ya need.

 

You don't want to get len mad at you. When it comes time and you need parts he can make it rough on you when you can't find parts anywhere else. I was in the parts business its easy to say sorry its on back order. If you find cheaper parts just don't broadcast it especially to the sponsor of the forum He can be your best friend when your bike is broke and will go out of his way to help a fellow member.

 

So the new guy/RB is clearly excited about his bike and new ss lines. He promises future details and posts pics. Unfortunately, as a FNG, he takes a small poke at XJ4 in regards to price....not realizing that most of us like Len, bought stuff from him and are thankful for his vast product knowledge, fast shipping, etc, all while acknowledging he does not have the best price.

After that, in various posts, RB gets called/called out as a dick, child, troll, pathetic life, advised to growup, act like a man, manup and advised by a wizard to not visit this site. Wow, really? And all of these slurs and comments come after RB basically states 'ok, I get it, I'll stop'. Wow!

Like most, I am very thankful for Len's involvement on here. But I also appreciate the feckin new guys that spot good US suppliers at the 50% pricetag.

Kudos to Fitz though for his graceful post, trying to not 'shout down' the new guy and for that beautiful pic that makes us all smile.

 

Just curious, but does Len actually sponsor the forum in a financial way?

I have to admit this whole forum setup is a little weird seeming to me. I guess since I've never been a member of a public forum where a business is heavily advertised and almost universally recommended as the sole option, and any criticism (albeit unfounded in some cases) is met with passionate outrage and name-calling as well as threats that service may be denied by said business if one is not appreciative enough. I think that may be what gets under the skin of some folks.

 

i don't know if Len sends SnoSheriff any money or not, it's none of my business.
head over to kzrider and see how many references are made to
Z1enterprizes. i think it happens a lot more than we realize. probably any small niche group has a preferred supplier

 

Well I can tell you that personally, the recommendation comes from the service, and I recommend him heavily because that's the only way, short of actually ordering from chacal, to experience his service. Since he doesn't have a flashy website that's easy to order from, it can be off-putting to those that haven't ordered from him yet.

There was nothing wrong with the OP, or anybody posting about another supplier. But he also posted on another thread, to the tune of "why would anyone pay twice as much for chacal's products?" http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=4 ... rt=30.html Chacal then responded with a difference in DOT compliance (which was later answered). The point is, the DOT compliance is a major selling point of chacal's, and he was making it heard.

If you could look at the positive feedback chacal receives (ebay style), you'd be hard pressed to find more satisfied customers. However, this forum doesn't aggregate that information, so only the most recent threads are going to get views unless you are searching for info, and newbies are going to see them first. I think that's why members are quick to recommend him, explain how he works and defend his customer service, so newbies make that one order. If you are unsatisfied, there is NOTHING stopping you from complaining on the forum. Or never ordering again.

Threats of denial of service didn't come from chacal, just members postulating (I highly doubt that a business would turn away a paying customer, even if they find and post about cheaper competitor's prices). Name calling should be avoided (and there are rules about flaming on this forum...moderators might have sent PMs, we don't know).

 

Ok, perhaps this will end the discussion. I called Galfer and asked about DOT approved complete lines and got the same story about their DOT labeled and non-labeled lines being identical. When I told him that all states require the line be labeled DOT he said that all I had to do was request that the lines ordered include the black DOT boot and they would be included at no extra cost. So I called Starcycle who had them on Ebay for about $105 and requested that I be sent DOT labeled lines. The guy I talked to didn't know what I was talking about, but when he looked on Galfer's site he saw that DOT labeling could be requested. I ordered a set and immediately emailed Starcycle through Ebay and requested the Dot labeled lines, and they arrived today clearly labeled DOT. Now, I assume that means the entire line with fittings, but at least mine are labeled. As inexpensive as it is to add the boot, I'm surprised Galfer doesn't make that standard. The guy at Starcycle said they may may make it standard practice to request it. This was a great deal and so I gave it a shot for that reason and also just to see if the lines came labeled DOT.

Now, that said, I've bought a lot of stuff for my bike from Chacal--as a matter of fact this may be the first item I haven't gotten from him other than spark plugs. He may be a little higher than some other sources, but I feel like I'm buying a lot more than just the part. He always has the part, his service second to none, his knowledge and advice is encyclopedic, and he always answers my questions quickly and usually with a few tidbits of good advice. Try to get that from somewhere else and you'll understand why Chacal is the best deal around. There are a lot of good folks with a lot of knowledge on this forum, but I'm glad I didn't tackle my bike with our having Chacal as a source for parts and advice.

 

this is a free forum for all of us XJ owners to come together
and share knowledge and help each other
and trust me the help is appreciated and vital
have I purchased parts off ebay
yes, but trust me when you need a part that is hard to find
and yes it will happen.. Len has them
and he is fast when it comes to shipping
on the brake lines... just replace old ones to save lives