JIS Screwdrivers: Things have changed.

According to Vessel (as mentioned in the following article) the JIS standard for screwdrivers has been gone for several years. The standard to look for is DIN 5260. This will ensure that your screwdriver actually fits the screws on your XJ.

Link to the Web Bike World article: http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-tools/hozan-jis-screwdrivers-review/

Be sure to read the comments, as they contain most of the important information.

Also of note regarding why a Phillips screwdriver is not a good choice (from tbe comments of the above article):

"Some five years later, when Brandon Jackson wrote his Vessel Motorcycle Repair and Restoration JIS Screwdriver Kit review, he noted a similar occurrence with respect to a Honda CB 550:

"[T]he JIS screwdrivers fit very cleanly and positively into the various cross point fasteners on the bike. ... So well, in fact, that he could stick the tip of a screwdriver into a JIS screw head in a side cover (horizontal) and the Vessel screwdriver held in place when he let go.""

A Phillips screwdriver won't do that, but it will damage the screw head, eventually making the screw unusable.

 

"A Phillips screwdriver won't do that, but it will damage the screw head, eventually making the screw unusable."
I've got several of these damaged screws.

 

the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

You only have to take them out once...

 

That may be true, but there may be other factors too.
For one I had no idea that these screws were this JIS. Did I bother to investigate? No.
They looked like normal philips screws. Just thought my drivers were crap.
If I damaged them I replaced them. I probably would of never known about this JIS if I hadn't found this site with all these great people with all this knowledge.
As they say, "can't teach a old dog new tricks" isn't always true.

 

Well, I'm more confused than ever after reading over the Web Bike World article. Anyway, I bought a set of Vessel screwdrivers about 6 or 8 months ago and I assume they are fine. They are really good screwdrivers, and should be for what they cost. I keep them separate from my other screwdrivers and have them marked for "Jap Bikes only".

 

I did not even know about JIS drivers at first... now I do. But I still think that a JIS/Phillips fastener was a *really* poor choice in some spots, like an exhaust or carburetor manifold boots. Even with the correct tool, and hand strength like GI-Joe with the Kung Fu grip... still pretty hard to get out.

 

They are. That's who "cleared up" the standards issue. My read is that JIS screws are still made, but the DIN 5260 standard essentially replaced the JIS standard for drivers.

 

That is going to happen with any fastener. The problem is the lack of thread sealant or anti-seize being used at the factory. Pennies saved per bike to be sure, but that leads to millions in additional profits. It's good (though time-consuming) practice to coat all fasteners with the appropriate "goop" so they can remain serviceable (I have a habit of doing this even on new motorcycles/scooters).

 

+1 ^^^
I should buy stock in Anti-seize, it just makes sense . . . except when you need to use blue loc-tite.

 

I still have the original toolkit, I wonder if the "Phillips" in that toolkit is actually JIS.

I dorked up the carb drain screws years ago trying to use a Phillips. Wish I had know this then.

 

You're not alone. I'll admit to buggering up many screws until I heard about and tried a JIS/DIN 5260 screwdriver. Now my set is one of my most utilized tools in the box.

I still like JIS over DIN 5260.

 

It is.

 

Has anyone replaced some of the JIS screws (such as on the transmission covers) with the same size screws, but with hex type heads? I do this on my radio control race cars as hex screws don't seem to strip like phillips heads.

 

I went with Chacals stainless Allen hex set on mine. Much nicer.

 

The crank-end covers on mine all have allen socket head screws now. The case guards make it difficult to get a screwdriver into all of the screws, and that's the only reason why I made the change.

 

Last summer I was on a mission to find JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screwdrivers...you want to see "deer in the headlight" stares? Ask for these...

Almost as bad as asking for Herby Clips!

 

I never did find a set locally, and started to use my screwdrivers from the Japanese bike tool kits that I have lying around. Huge difference! Now if we can only find JIS tips for our impact drivers, that would be great.

 

like these?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vessel-B33-...782307?hash=item2364e803e3:g:n2gAAOSwLzdWRH1a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JIS-Screwdr...456643?hash=item27fd4dc403:g:Q9oAAOSwBLlVLCWP

http://www.vesseltools.com

I haven't looked but chacal might have these too.

 

I have that Vessel IMPACTA driver, love that impact screwdriver. Makes screws on the side covers, internal baffle screws, the brush holder etc. a breeze.

 

I was looking at that. Do you have the p2 or p3?

 

#3 x 150

 

Those 1/4 inch shaft bits are made for impact guns, the bits on a good impact screwdriver have slightly larger shafts (about .30 of an inch rather than .25).

The impacta looks like a "destructa", a little on the flimsy side. I've had my impact driver for over 40 years, I just can't see that tool lasting.

The best would be to find JIS bits with a 3/8th drive and different lengths, or bits with the proper sized shaft.

Maybe they don't exist?

 

now I'm more confused, the first link on "boomerang 22" list says the bits are dual purpose , both j.i.s. and i.s.o.
how can that be ,then.

stu

 

Look at the nice diagram on that 2nd eBay auction link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JIS-Screwdr...=item27fd4dc403:g:Q9oAAOSwBLlVLCWP&rmvSB=true

and it clearly shows the difference in the design of the screw slot (JIS vs. Phillips). Phillips style slots were designed to prevent assembly-line workers from over-tightening screws as they rushed past them on the assembly line; a better description for Phillips-drive screws (and their drivers) is "torque-limiting". The angled corners at the center of the slot allows the screwdriver blades to ride up-and-out of the slot, thus limiting the torque that can be applied. Since the overall slot length and width is the same between JIS and Phillips, you can use the drivers interchangeably between the two, but the JIS style allows you to put a lot more torque onto the fastener (both going in and coming out), and that's why the JIS drivers are less likely to strip the head out......because the JIS driver will not easily "cam out". It's the "cam-out" process that actually "strips" the slots in the center of the screw head.

We use the JIS drivers all the time, on everything around here. Can't take a carb rack apart with Phillips drivers (the lower and upper rack bolts are lock-tited in from the factory), but the JIS drivers zip them right out.

 

chacal didn't mention this but they are for sale in the toolbox section.

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/xj-parts-catalog-section-p-the-toolbox.44630/
prices look better then I've seen elsewhere.
Thanks chacal for doing what you do.

 

Taku, do you see the bit in your impact set that has the flat tip? It's ground pretty darn close to the JIS standard. I have the same set and it was my go-to bit before I had a JIS screwdriver.

 

So, after work I got out the original toolkit to try the cheesy screwdriver from it. The one screw on the clutch cover was too far stripped to remove with JIS screwdriver. Will have to dremel.

But....for the first time in 20 years I opened all 4 drain screws on the carbs. Years ago I quit trying as a phillips began to strip one. Backed right out with the cheesy little toolkit screwdriver. I also never knew the cheesy toolkit screwdriver handle accepts a 3/8 socket wrench, which made it even easier to torque.

Until this thread I did not know there was a difference between JIS and Phillips. Future maintenance will now be easier!

 

I'll let you know in 37 years

 

You are right K-moe, I use that one almost exclusively. I've worn out a few over the years as well, that's a new set of bits I was lucky enough to find at an old tractor store.

It would just be ideal to find the right bits or a 3/8 th's drive with JIS bits like the allen key I show in my last photo. There are times where you can't get that short bit in there (like splitting the cases, there are a few bolts that are sunk in there pretty deep).

I'm usually directed towards the quarter inch bits when I ask in a store, or I have to try to explain what an impact driver is, sigh, usually it's assumed that it's one of those battery powered DeWalt, Rigid or Bosch impact guns that contractors use (small shafts).

JIS is not well known, even the guys at my local Yamaha shop were unaware of this, these are guys who've been working on bikes daily for the past 30 years, so it's great that we are talking about this here.

 

I buggered up one of the screw heads holding the choke lever/turn signal switch on to the handlebars (XJ700) with a phillips driver of course. Ordered a new set of JIS drivers from Len... (Beautiful by the way...) as well as a new screw for the switch.

Anyway, of course the head of the old screw was now too damaged to remove with the JIS driver, so IN went the "Grab-it" bit.

Then I broke the "grab-it" bit in the head of the screw!

Mind you... there was nothing wrong with the old screw before I started down this terrible path. I just wanted to remove the switch to clean it out (turn signal sometimes tough to actuate).

Now I have a brand unused screw that I can't use and a chewed up old screw in place with half a "grab-it" tip wedged in the head!

Great Job!

 

Use a center punch to crack the remainder of the "grab-it" doohickey (be careful though so you don't crack the screw boss), then you can use some jewlers rouge on the JIS driver so it can grab the screw. If that won't work then grab a dremel and a carbide tip or cutoff wheel to cut a slot in the screwhead and the extractor, then you can use a slotted screwdriver to remove the screw.

 

I was thinking about cutting a slot for a flat screw driver as you suggested. Don't have a dremel though...

It's funny... Like I laughed (pathetically) OUT LOUD when I snapped the damn bit off!

It's one thing when you get something from someone else and it is already ruined... and you fix it it! It's come thing completely different when you start out with something that is just fine, and figure out a great way to completely ruin it out of your own stupidity!

Gotta get a dremel now.

Incidentally, I was amazed at how little pressure I was using when the bit cracked. I was in total disbelief at what I had done without really wrenching on it.

What a piece of crap.

 

Let me tell you about the first time I replaced a water pump..........

Long story short; it also ended up being the first time I replaced a radiator. The rad was fine when I started.

 

It would just like when I did the exact same thing with an F250 that i used to drive

 

Ok, now I feel better.

 

I replaced the rear license plate on my '08 Odyssey this month. One of the bolts broke off, even though not rusty! Tried to drill out, broke the bit off in the bolt hole. Tried to ream it out with another bit, but the threaded hole was softer than the bit, no joy. I too wasn't using much pressure or speed with trying to drill it out, must have been a defective drill bit.

Ended up using "shoe goo" to literally glue the license plate to the small stub of drill bit sticking out.

 

you use shoo goo like others use Duct tape

 

It is a great product. It has held the seam on my seat for over 10 years.

BTW - my shoe goo'd seat strap gave out last night. Used one of the ones I bought from you on the Bay! Many thanks.

 

What's it matter? Half of them are seized or buggered anyway... Take them out once + replace them...

 

I guess it don't. Just nice to have the correct tools for what i'm working on.

 

There is some truth there, depends on what you are doing I guess

 

Somewhere in College Station Texas (I will never admit to where) is an old Cuervo bottle filled with, lets call it recycled Cuervo and sealed with Shoe-goo. I'd be willing to believe that some 23 years that its been there, it is still nice and sealed.

 

A phillips will just bugger them up more. A JIS will actually get the screw out most of the time. Besides, most of the screws (aside from the float bowls) won't have ever been touched.