XJ700 *EFI* The holy sh*t it is fast now mod!

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

Looking good. Not a fan of the filter set up though. Are you going to put any sort of rain deflection on the filters, or just avoid riding in poor weather? Water logged air filters can be severely restrictive.

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

A k&n filter water logged will flow more then a stock filter shouldn't be a problem. Ad least they are pointing down which will keep it out of the engine

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

Cant wait to hear how much better the fuel consumption is on a country cruise.

Is their much other work left to get it on the road?

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

Very little work left to get it on the road. The filters were put at that exact angle so that my legs will block most of the water getting to the filters.

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more

Dude, This is sick. Probally one the of coolest mods I have seen to date. Execlent work.

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

Apart from the nice EFI-job you did, I must say I like the air-intake. It's similar to what I want to do with mine for next year, only I want the two intake pipes on the sides to curve forward over the engine.

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

Some more pictures. Now I am just doing some polishing of the engine etc.

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

I feel like I am being negative commenting on what will obviously be a great finished product, but I have done a lot of EFI work and have to comment on the trigger wheel.

The Microsquirt uses the zero crossing point of the A/C signal as its trigger.
By making the high points of the wheel so long, the zero point is very slow and flat (can draw it) The problem that this may cause is inaccurate timing at different rpm. Traditionally the high point of the sensor should be the same width as the metal core of the pick up (in this case only a mm or 2).

An easy way to test to see if this will be a problem is to program a flat advance curve, and then confirm the timing stays dead steady when you go through the rev range.

 

Re: XJ700 Super Awesome Fuel Injection Build - Now with more EFI

I am using a 36-1 trigger wheel now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/36-1-VR- ... 500wt_1182

I already figured that issue out. Already had a timing light on it and works fine and having a built in trigger logger in tunerstudio does wonders also. The engine will hit 10krpm within 1 second of opening the throttle. This is prolly one of the best mods that can be done to these bikes.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

VERY nice work!!!!
It sounds great. I can't wait to hear how it rides. Can you bring it over so I can take it for a spin? I'll buy the gas for your trip as long as I can tap your brain for information.

Truely impressive

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Thanks Mike! I would to a trip to PA but I just moved from Virginia and not a fan of the east coast.

I did order some 13" Progressive 412 HD shocks and some Progressive front springs!

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

We are a whole state west of the coast!!

I put air shocks on mine about a year and a half ago. Love them....but anything new is better than the 25 year old stockers.

SO many projects, so little time ;-(

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

BTW mike just let me know if you have anymore questions or would want some more pictures or details.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

and then Mike can help me FI Nahfick....right Mike???

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

gennro do you still have your stock carbs? i would like to know some measurements... throat OD, spacing and overall witdh etc. how much they differ from the tb's youre using?

im trying to find the best fitting throttle body. spacing on my 750 seca carbs (maybe hitachi 33?) is something 73-83-73. so the 80-80-80 on the gsxr 600 throttle bodies dont sound like a match.. also the OD is 44 compared to 38 on my hitachis..

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

I don't have the stock carbs anymore.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Well it looks like the 2nd gear won't engage so this week I'll be taking the trans apart to fix the dogs......

Will be possibly be picking up a 78 Suzuki GS1000 this weekend.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Well 2nd gear is fixed. The gear and shift fork were bad so I took them from my XJ650 and now 2nd stays in. Now one of my injectors started leaking so I am soaking them in WD-40 now.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Gennro

Nice build!...ever thought of selling a kit for the XJ? (HINT, HINT, HINT)

Kenneth

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Hey genro, ever thought of trying to build a tranny with the much wanted 6th gear in it? :idea:
You apparently have solid fab skills....maybe the next step in the evolution of Max-Fuel or Fuel-X or OMFG it's a Fuel Injected Maxim-X ( I know, to big for the side of the tank)! LOL! 8)
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Ordered one of these so I can clean my own injectors and parts etc. http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2-5L-PRO-DIGITA ... 45f899731b

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Can anyone remember where they saw those throttle bodies that looked like a carb??
I think BigFitz mentioned something. I remember the photo clear as day but only the throttle bodies and nothing about the bike

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Late model retro Triumphs have them

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Well been tuning the bike lately I need to get some BPR8ES sparkplugs due to the hotter ones I am running are letting the engine to get way to hot. So hopefully getting the correct plugs should take care of the issues I am having and will be done. Before anyone starts shit the reason I can't run BP8ES plugs because they are non resistor type. I need BPR8ES but they are not that common of a plug. So hopefully I can find some.

The progressive springs is a huge upgrade!!!!!!

Also found a 1993 Honda Nighthawk 750 for $1300. Just needs new brakes, battery, seals, and should be road worthy!

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

news flash, colder plugs don't make the engine any cooler !

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

And why can't you run non 'R' plugs ?

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

non-resistive plugs allow a lot of electro magnetic interference (EMI) back in the chassis which electronic fuel systems have a hard time dealing with.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Newsflash been running 6 heat range plugs which the engine calls for 8 heat range plugs. Yes spark plugs secondary function next to providing ignition to the fuel vapors is to remove heat away from the combustion chamber. Anyone that knows anything about how engines operate will know this.

From NGK themselves:
Let's make this really simple: when you need your engine to run a little cooler, run a colder plug. When you need your engine to run a little hotter, run a hotter spark plug. However, NGK strongly cautions people that going
to a hotter spark plug can sometimes mask a serious symptom of another problem that can lead to engine damage. Be very careful with heat ranges. Seek professional guidance if you are unsure.

With modified engines (those engines that have increased their compression) more heat is a by-product of the added power that normally comes with increased compression. In short, select one heat range colder for every 75-100 hp you add, or when you significantly raise compression. Also remember to retard the timing a little and to increase fuel enrichment and octane. These tips are critical when adding forced induction (turbos, superchargers or nitrous kits), and failure to address ALL of these areas
will virtually guarantee engine damage.

An engine that has poor oil control can sometimes mask the symptom temporarily by running a slightly hotter spark plug. While this is a "Band-Aid" approach, it is one of the only examples of when and why one would select
a hotter spark plug.



BP = 13/16 size R = Resistor 8 = Heat range ES = standard 19mm reach with 2.5mm electrode.

Also here is a link from NGK http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/docs/tech/ ... _plugs.pdf

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

From NGK themselves

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_suppo ... p?mode=nml

If you are relying on the spark plugs to cool your engine, you may be expecting a bit much.


I do agree that high performance engines will often need colder plugs to avoid engine damage, not because of engine heat but because of spark plug heat.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

The operating temperature of a spark plug is the actual physical temperature at the tip of the spark plug within the running engine. This is determined by a number of factors, but primarily the actual temperature within the combustion chamber. There is no direct relationship between the actual operating temperature of the spark plug and spark voltage. However, the level of torque currently being produced by the engine will strongly influence spark plug operating temperature because the maximum temperature and pressure occurs when the engine is operating near peak torque output (torque and RPM directly determine the power output). The temperature of the insulator responds to the thermal conditions it is exposed to in the combustion chamber but not vice versa. If the tip of the spark plug is too hot it can cause pre-ignition or sometimes detonation/knocking and damage may occur. If it is too cold, electrically conductive deposits may form on the insulator causing a loss of spark energy or the actual shorting-out of the spark current.
A spark plug is said to be "hot" if it is a better heat insulator, keeping more heat in the tip of the spark plug. A spark plug is said to be "cold" if it can conduct more heat out of the spark plug tip and lower the tip's temperature. Whether a spark plug is "hot" or "cold" is known as the heat range of the spark plug. The heat range of a spark plug is typically specified as a number, with some manufacturers using ascending numbers for hotter plugs and others doing the opposite, using ascending numbers for colder plugs.
The heat range of a spark plug (i.e. in scientific terms its thermal conductivity characteristics) is affected by the construction of the spark plug: the types of materials used, the length of insulator and the surface area of the plug exposed within the combustion chamber. For normal use, the selection of a spark plug heat range is a balance between keeping the tip hot enough at idle to prevent fouling and cold enough at maximum power to prevent pre-ignition or engine knocking. By examining "hotter" and "cooler" spark plugs of the same manufacturer side by side, the principle involved can be very clearly seen; the cooler plugs have a less substantial ceramic insulator filling the gap between the center electrode and the shell, effectively allowing more heat to be carryed off by the shell, while the hotter plugs have more ceramic material, so that the tip is more isolated from the body of the plug and retains heat better.
Heat from the combustion chamber escapes through the exhaust gases, the side walls of the cylinder and the spark plug itself. The heat range of a spark plug has only a minute effect on combustion chamber and overall engine temperature. A cold plug will not materially cool down an engine's running temperature. (Too hot of a plug may, however, indirectly lead to a runaway pre-ignition condition that can increase engine temperature.) Rather, the main effect of a "hot" or "cold" plug is to affect the temperature of the tip of the spark plug.
It was common before the modern era of computerized fuel injection to specify at least a couple of different heat ranges for plugs for an automobile engine; a hotter plug for cars which were mostly driven slowly around the city, and a colder plug for sustained high speed highway use. This practice has, however, largely become obsolete now that cars' fuel/air mixtures and cylinder temperatures are maintained within a narrow range, for purposes of limiting emissions. Racing engines, however, still benefit from picking a proper plug heat range. Very old racing engines will sometimes have two sets of plugs, one just for starting and another to be installed once the engine is warmed up, for actually driving the car.
Spark plug manufacturers use different numbers to denote heat range of their spark plugs. The chart below gives the equivalent spark plug numbers between different manufacturers. Spark Plug - Equivalent heat range chart between brands

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Nice copy paste.
If you disagree, that is healthy, but to paste 200 lines copied directly from the web is not arguing, it is just showing you agree with the crowd and paste it moving it along.
Experience is also a positive thing to have.

I have also converted engines to EFI. I have documented over 50 conversions since then.
I did my first conversion in the 1980s, so settle down and take a deep breath.
Learn with others, or argue with others.

Chill dude,or have you learned everything there is to know via google?

Are you aware more than one person on the planet understands EFI and performance engines?

Mind you on a website that covers 30 year old bikes there may be only a few.

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

select one heat range colder for every 75-100 hp you add

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Yeah I run a 18krpm 5million HP F1 engine that shits daisies and keeps hippies happy.


Anyways today did some more tuning got the BPR8ES spark plugs needed thanks to my wife for finding them for me. Having sync loss issues around 6500 to 7500 rpm. Doing some research it seems to be the VR sensor may be outputting to much voltage distorting the input signal. The diode in the uS could also be shunting the signal. So tomorrow I'll be adding some 10k to 50k resistance on the VR+ input and see how that will go. Seems from some reading it has worked well for others.

Other then that the bike runs like a raped ape all the way from 1000 to 6500rpm. Much better then it did on the carbs.

This winter I will rebuild the top end. Probably go with new rings, head gasket, shims, polish the piston tops, combustion chambers,polish the exhaust ports, and other stuff. Will end up going with better exhaust that will breathe a little better. Also new EBC brake rotors.

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

Isn't the "X" motor like the other XJ's, with a powerband that just starts getting serious at 6K rpm?

How does it run from 6500 to redline, you know, the FUN part of the rev range?

(And I wouldn't run "R" plugs unless you removed the stock resistor-type caps.)

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

Resistor Plugs are nothing to be afraid of.
If you run the prescribed heat range AND change the Plugs with some regularity; you're likely to never notice whats happening.

You need a Scope to understand what actually happens.
The Long and Short of it is: Longer.

5K Ohms causes the Discharge Arc across the Plug Gap to take longer.
The duration needs needs to be measured with an Oscilloscope.
Because the speed factor is actually a Radio Frequency.

In other words:
You can buy a Spark Plug that discharges its energy across the Spark Plug Gap at the Speed of Light, ... or
You can buy one that takes a little bit longer than The Speed of Light.

With a Resistor Plug
The Charge coming-down the Wire gets delayed for a few billionths of a second before reaching the End of the Spark Plugs Center Electrode where, ...
because it waited so long, ... NOW has to ALL go to Ground across the Plug Gap.

The Net effect is the Spark takes longer to Discharge.

You need an Oscilloscope to see it.
You need a CB Radio or an 8-Track Tape to hear it!

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

I'm not running stock coils anymore......... junk......

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

i like your bike

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

i like your bike also

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

Gennro, after reading your post about colder plugs I got to wondering about the lean running issues people have with pods. So my question is could a colder plug help with a lean condition due to using pods?

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

I'll raise this question, again, at this point of this really-great thread, because when I see how determined you can get to put Fuel Injection on an XJ-Bike, I wonder, ... why???

Why do you suppose there is not on the market a complete "Bolt-on -- Everything ... in-the-box" Fuel-injection Conversion Kit for these bikes?

Having a Kit that you could just bolt-on and tweak, ... either by setting Dip Switches, ... or reprogramming the Software with a LapTop or an iPad would be something I'd be good all year long, for ... to have Santa bring me one for Christmas!

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

Why?
Same reason people do up old bikes, both for a challenge and to improve them.
As for a full EFI conversion kit, with everything needed to bolt on using all new or serviced parts, designed for home user skills? Minimal market (full kit would be $1,200 ++)

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

Colder plugs will not solve lean issues. Plus the stock plugs on most of these bikes is already a D8 which 8 is pretty cold in the NGK series. Most watercooled engines will run between a 5 to a 7. Too hot of a plug will cause pinging and to cold will cause poor idle performance. But since the engine is air cooled the combustion chamber is already hotter then a watercooled engine so hence the need of a colder plug to prevent pinging.

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

our liquid cooled 2 strokes run 9's

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

I don't have much experience with 2 strokes other then a weed eater. :lol:

Anyways NGKs heat range is backwards compared to other manufactures.

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

THANKS GENNRO for answering my question with the explanation,I always like having an explanation instead of (no it wont work you dumba**). :lol:

 

Re: XJ700 w/ Fuel Injection - Videos Inside - Finished?

Thanks for a great thread.

Being a total newbie on EFI, I would have to do some serious background research to dare to attempt this mod my self - in the mean time I (as well as many others, I think) are eagerly looking forward to your updates.

Any news on adding resistance to the VR+ input?

´bout plugs: Do you use the stock (5 kOhm) plug caps still, or..?

- and coils: A recommended upgrade for the stock coils are the Dyna DC1-1´s: z1enterprises.com
stated to output >30K volts.

Do you think they would be suited for a mod like yours?

Would a top end rebuild be required if you were to EFI these bike - or not necessary, provided compression, gaskets etc. are ok?

"On the edge of spring"- Hi´s from Copenhagen

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

One of the side benefits of programmable engine management is the ability to specify the dwell time, this enables you to use almost any Ignition coil.

The Dyna replacements are still a lower energy coil. Pick a high energy coil from a late model vehicle, the more common and cost effective the better.

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

Ok, thanks (one more EFI-area I have to research, I guess

 

Re: XJ700 Now with F1 engine from down under!

Well 7k to 10k rpm is just awesome now! I took out the C30 .1 uF cap and turned on some software filtering now the bike will run from 1k to 10krpm with ease. Man now this is what a XJ should feel like!