xj650 electrical problem

Hello Everyone!

disclosure, I am new to motorcycles and this is my first ride.

I have recently run into a problem with my Yamaha xj 650 1980 maxim, It used to run very well with no problems but after I changed the oil and brake fluids the bike decided to stop working.
The bike has a brand new battery that I have tested by trying to jump with car battery which didnt help.
Initially I only had red oil light on and bike wouldn't start so I tested the kill switch and start button and they should be functioning.
I shorted the terminals in the solenoid and the starter cranked over.
After doing these things i noticed that nither the brake light, turn signals or horn would work, however tail light and headlight run as normal.
I have been told on this form to test the continuity for the start switch and kill switch, but they should be working now and are unrelated on the wiring diagram for the bike.

Please let me know where should I go next to try to get my bike running again?

 

I have read a similar post

http://xjbikes.com/forums/threads/electrical-issues-on-xj650.113922/#post-571056

where other user had similar but not the same problems.

Just tested the solenoid with a bench 12V power supply and it switches when powered.

 

Check the signal fuse, you also won't have a neutral light and you need to be sure you are in neutral to enable the safety circuit for the starter to work. You can start the bike in gear, but you must have a working clutch switch and have the clutch pulled in.

This is a very detailed troubleshooting guide for troubleshooting your problem. You can ignore the side stand switch references since you should not have the side stand safety circuit.

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/how-to-test-your-starter-circuit.7828/

If the solenoid is engaging the starter when you apply 12V to the two small terminals, then either your safety circuit is not functioning or you starter button switch is not functioning. Both are covered in the above DIY guide. Remember you must have the bike in neutral with a working neutral switch or have a working clutch switch and the clutch pulled in for the starter button to function and engage the starter when depressed.

 

What does this mean if Im not having a neutral light while being in neutral?
and what is the clutch switch? is there electronics connected to the mechanical clutch lever?

 

thank you for taking time to help a newbie out!

I went through the guide till part 6/7 where I found out my neutral switch doesn't work( 0.03 V for part 6 test and no change in continuity in part 7).
How do you clean this besides unscrewing it and inspecting?
(also I would have to take off the exhaust system to get at it.)

Also I noticed the previous owner had put in 15A main fuse instead of 20A as described in the service manual (also the sticker in the original fuse box says 30 A which one is right????), would this be a problem?

I found that the signal fuse was indeed cracked, I replaced it however that didn't change anything in terms of horn.. etc working.

 

I believe all 650's have a 20 amp main so I would suggest sticking with that. It will not cause a problem unless it blows, which might occur if the electrical system was placed in a max load condition.

It is not perfectly clear in the troubleshooting guide, but normally you would proceed to step 6 only because step 5 failed and you did not have the 12V at the R/W wire. Steps 6, 7, 8, and 9 are there to isolate a problem in the starter safety circuit. If you truly had .03V for step 6, then step 5 could not have passed.

So, repeat step 5 and be sure you have the 12V present on the R/W wire as suggested. Note that the 12V is only present if the bike is in neutral and/or the clutch is pulled in.

If you have the original fuse box they can be a source of problems as the clips corrode and weaken and then eventually break causing intermittent contact. Double check the fuse you put in to be sure it did not blow and inspect the fuse box closely. The best way to check it is with the voltmeter set to the 20 volt scale. Place the negative lead of the DMM on the battery negative terminal, then check both sides of the fuse with the key set to "ON" and there should be 12V on both sides of the fuse. And, while you are there go ahead and do the same for the ignition and head fuse just to be sure they are OK.

 

the clutch switch is on the clutch perch allows you to start the bike in gear with clutch pulled in.

if switch is defective or missing you can go into the headlight bucket and put a jumper wire across the connector for it then bike will start in gear without pulling in the clutch.
if this switch is missing bike will only start in neutral
if your neutral light does not work and you are missing switch bike will not start using starter..
you can ground the neutral switch wire to bypass it

 

I was getting 0.01 V on the R/W wire, I checked the wire running from the harness to the starter relay and the bundle seemed ok( i didnt take appart the bundle to see individual wires).
besides there where else should I check for discontinuities to solve part 5?
also wouldn't the neutral switch being messed up stop me from getting 12V since bike cant tell when its in neutral?

 

Is there any reason to take out the neutral switch and clean it in hopes of it being fixed in this case?
and where would I find the clutch switch if it did exist on my bike?( i know neurtal light is under exaust below the engine)

 

OK, so you are saying you failed step 5, which means moving on to step 6, and if your earlier statement is true:

Failing step 6 means no output from the kill switch when the ignition is set to "ON" and the kill switch set to "RUN". And per the troubleshooting guide last sentence in step 6 it means:

"If not, you will need to inspect, clean or replace the 20A Main fuse, the ignition switch, the kill switch, or the wiring between them. If you measure 12 volts (approx.), go to the next step."

The last sentence is not totally correct, it should say:

If not, you will need to inspect, clean or replace the 20A Main fuse, the ignition switch, the ignition fuse, the kill switch, or the wiring between them. If you measure 12 volts (approx.), go to the next step.

So, it's an easy process to isolate a failure in step 6, just simply walk through the points of potential failure:

1. DMM negative lead to battery negative, DMM set to volts on 20VDC scale.
2. Place the DMM positive lead on the main fuse, check both sides for 12VDC.
3. Turn on the ignition switch, place the DMM positive lead on the ignition fuse, check both sides for 12VDC
4. Remove the gas tank and locate the right control connector. Back probe the R/W wire and verify 12VDC. Note that there should be 2 R/W wires, the input to the kill switch and the output of the kill switch. If the kill switch is set to run both the R/W wires should have 12VDC.

Yes it can cause a failure in step 5, that is why you proceed to step 6 to isolate the problem to the safety circuit or the ignition power. Once again you stated earlier:

Which does not indicate an issue with a safety circuit, but rather a problem with ignition power.

 

Thank you for the very precise description of what to do, it helped a ton !

following in order that you have kindly listed.
2. main fuse ok (still gotta get a 20 A fuse)
3. ignition fuse burns out if ignition switch turned on and key is turned. burned out 3 fuses making sure that is what was happening, as soon as kill switch is turned fuse heats up and blows.
4. since I cant stop ignition fuse from blowing I didn't expect to get anything, but checked anyways and indeed 0.03 V and 0.01V.

side note, I noticed my fuse box was corroded so I added some dielectic grease for the time being so the connections can be complete. this fixed the lights, horn etc...

So from here I must determine why the ignition fuse has too much Amps running through it correct? if so what should be my plan of attack?

 

That is likely just a temporary fix and you need to go ahead and upgrade the fuse box. Here is a nice How-to on that:

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/how-to-install-an-aftermarket-fuse-box.6350/

Ignition power is used by the TCI, starter relay, and in the head light bucket for the oil light. You already have the starter relay disconnected from following the starter troubleshooting guide, and normally the next step would be to disconnect the other sources to isolate the problem. However, from your earlier thread you were doing work on the kill switch, so the most likely problem is a pinched wire at the right control that is shorting the ignition power to ground.

Open up the right control and inspect to see if a wire was pinched between the shell and the handlebar, or between the internal metal clamps that secure the wires. The wires must be carefully routed where they exit the control to keep form pinching them. There should also be black sleeving there to help protect the wires, but it often gets pulled back and does not do the job.

 

Jeezus, Rooster, you must be a Pikachu or something. Your knowledge of the electrical stuff!
Sorry, watching Pokemon with the boys!

(To all the peeps not versed in Japanese cartoon rodents, Pikachu is an electric type. My life!)

 

No wire pinched action going on, I took the whole assembly appart so the wires are only touching the switch and tested it on run resulting in fuse still being burned.

I traced down from the console to see if anything else was shorting out and found that in the headlight, the 3 part RW RW BW from the right control are all connected by continuity test coming out of the engine( I probed RW and then touched all 2 others coming out of the bike not console and they were all connected) is this normal ?

then with a fresh fuse I tested your previous part 4.
I got 12~ V and 12~V coming out to the disconected rely female holder while kill switch was in run ( this didnt burn out my ignition fuse after I disconected that relay)
and 0.05V for both when kill switch was OFF.

does this mean that the relay is shot or something else is going on?
side note, I got a big puff sound coming from somewhere below the fuse box when I turned the key, does this suggest anything in your wise ideas?
thank you again for helping out!

edit- tested the relay below the fuel tank ( this is the one I was messing around with) and it clicks when given power.

 

If the kill switch is set to run yes the R/W to R/W should ohm as a short.
As for the BW, I am thinking you mean L/W for blue/ white. This could ohm as a fairly low resistance if the starter solenoid is connected, however it should not as the starter cutoff relay contacts should be open. There is also the interpretation of what you mean by continuity, in the electrical wiring world continuity normally refers to a direct short; for example a reading of less than 1 ohm similar to when the meter is set to the lowest scale and the plus and minus leads are touched together.

I don't see how this could be if the correct relay is installed but won't argue with the results. I think the only possible cause would be somehow one of the terminals is shorted to the metal case and the case would then have to touch the frame, which normally they don't as the holder is rubber isolating it from the frame. Or, if the internal coil was melted and shorted, but also highly unlikely. So, make sure the relay that you are working with meets the criteria from:

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/

"Starter/Ignition cut-off relay (no color): behind the turn signal self-canceller. (note: the drawing and the description in the service manual is wrong).
on all XJ650 Maxim/Midnight Maxim/RJ Seca models: under the gas tank, in-between the frame tubes, on a welded bracket just behind the flasher self-canceller relay.
- small metal (original) or plastic (replacement) "cube" relay, inked 4H7-00, 4H7-01, or 12R-01 on the top face.
- has no colored paint mark on the bottom terminal connector block."

You can temporarily bypass this relay by shorting the R/W to R/W on the starter cutoff relay mating plug. This disables the safety circuit so it should just be used for troubleshooting only.

And, if it were in front of me this is what I would do instead blowing fuses and risking damage to the harness. It is kind of a hard process to write down as it is somewhat dynamic based on the state of the relays and switches, however assuming the ignition fuse only blows with the starter cutoff relay installed lets try this with everything connected:

1. Remove the ignition fuse
2. Turn the key on, set the DMM to volts and connect the negative probe to battery negative. With the positive probe check the two clips for the ignition fuse to determine which is the input and which is the output. The input side will have 12V, the output will have zero volts
3. Turn the key off
4. Set the meter to ohms and to the lowest scale (usually 200 ohms) and place one lead on the ignition fuse output clip (the side that read zero volts)
5. Connect the other lead of the DMM to the battery negative
6. Make sure the run kill switch is set to run.
7. With everything connected you should see a reading that would equate to a current greater than 10 amps (fuse blows) - so around 1.2 ohms or less
8. Hopefully 7 was true, so remove the starter cutoff relay and note the reading. Since the fuse is not blowing with the relay out, the new reading should be considerably higher
9. Temporarily short the R/W to R/W on the starter cutoff relay mating plug
10. You should now have a direct path reading the starter solenoid relay coil. The coil for the starter solenoid pulls close to 3 amps so the reading should be approximately 4 ohms
11. If 10 is true then you have proven the starter cutoff relay is bad. Try ohming the terminals on the starter cutoff relay as outlined below (assuming it is metal)
12. If 10 is not true and you now have the low resistance again (around 1.2 ohms) then the starter solenoid relay is likely bad ... but shouldn't be because you tested it earlier. Disconnect it and note the reading. If the reading goes up considerably then ohm the starter solenoid relay by itself. Check across the two small wires (R/W to L/W) and it should read about 4 ohms. Also check from the R/W wire to the two large terminals, it should read open.

(1) Check the starter cutoff relay as outlined below:

Yours may look a bit different so orient relay with case down and plastic key up:

All terminals to case open
R/W to R/W normally open contacts - open
R/W to B/Y relay coil - approximately 100 ohms
B/Y to Sb diode present - check using DMM on diode scale

 

Thank you for taging that identification guide.
I actually removed the Headlight Relay and tested the 2 R/W wires there, is that still correct or should I test a differnt relay?

 

edit- not sure since it has reminants of yellow on the body and the number is 3H600 meaning I think indeed I have tested wrong relay.
will test the correct one tomorrow

 

Well, it's not fixed yet. Sometimes I wish we had video links to direct troubleshooting vs trying to communicate with words.

 

It is best to use the wire coloring to be sure you are in the correct place. So, per Lens guide:

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/

Starter Cutoff Relay

Harness connector wire colors:
- on all XJ550 all models, XJ650 all models, XJ750 all non-X models, and XJ1100 models:
* Red wire with white tracer stripe
* another Red wire with white tracer stripe
* Black wire with yellow tracer stripe
* solid Light blue (sky blue) wire

Headlight Relay

Harness connector wire colors:
- on all XJ550 all models, XJ650 all models (except Turbo):
* Blue wire with black tracer stripe
* solid White wire
* Red wire with yellow tracer stripe
* solid Black wire

Note the headlight relay should be marked with yellow paint and the corresponding harness should have a wrap of yellow vinyl tape near the socket. The relay should be inked 3H5-00 on the top face.

The starter cutoff relay has no paint, but should be inked 4H7-00, 4H7-01, or 12R-01 on the top face.

And, most importantly you don't want to put the incorrect relay in the wrong spot as they are physically identical but electrically different and will plug into either place.

 

So I made sure to be very careful, and indeed it is the correct wires going into the relay identified by 2 RW wires, 1 BY and 1 Light Blue however the numbers on the relay are for a headlight relay.
I can upload a picture if it helps but all the above info is indeed correct.
I suppose the previous owner may have switched up the relays by accident?

 

happens a lot use the link you have been provided it gives you the numbers and locations
scroll down far enough ant it lists by bike

 

So get them back in their proper place using wiring color and numbers on the relay to verify. I would also suggest ohming them to be sure the internal diodes are not damaged. Here is what the headlight relay should look like internally:

 

So though sheer luck or voodoo magic after swapping the relays so they are in their rightful places the bike now runs....
Thank you very much for the help in fixing it, and maybe let me know how I could test that its fixed assides from your previous instructions.

 

If the bike starts and runs that is a good start, but you can test further to make sure all is well.

Headlight Relay:
When the key is set to "ON" the headlight is off
When the bike starts, or sometimes just very close to starting the headlight should illuminate
If the kill switch is used to shut the bike off the headlight should remain on (relay latched) until the ignition key is set to off.

Starter Cutoff Relay:
Starter engages when the start button is depressed and in neutral
Starter will not engage when the start button is depressed when in gear

Clutch Switch:
Starter engages when the start button is depressed while in gear and the clutch pulled in

Consider taking a motorcycle safety course to learn how to ride safely. You have no cage to protect you, and the course will be full of information pertaining to your safety.

You have an old motorcycle, it is great to hear it is running, but to be safe it is likely in need of a lot more TLC. Read this post and consider all the neglected maintenance that needs to be done for your own safety.

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-information-overload-hour.27544/

 

So turns out headlight doesn't work.
I suspect the relay is bad since when it was in the starter relay position before the bike wouldnt start but the headlight worked.
is this correct deduction?
thank you sensei Rooster for your continual help

 

Follow the schematic posted by rooster above to test the wires going to the headlight relay. My issue turned out to be two different problems, a broken alternator brush, and a melted diode block. P.O. really knew what they were doing...but testing them helped me determine where to start.

 

Could be the relay, should be easy to troubleshoot:

First check the headlight fuse, you have had issues in the fuse box already with the signal fuse, so make sure the headlight fuse is good and the clips for it are not broken.

1. Place the DMM on the 20VDC scale, connect the negative lead to the battery negative.
   
   
2. Remove the headlight relay
   
   
3. Turn the ignition key to “ON” and place the DMM positive lead on the headlight R/Y wire at the headlight relay mating connector. You should measure 12V.
   
   
4. Place the DMM positive probe on the W wire on the headlight relay mating connector, you should read zero volts.
   
   
5. With the DMM still connected to the W wire, start the bike and the voltage should go from zero to 12V, and climb slightly if the bike is revved to 2krpm.
   
   
6. Turn the bike off
   
   
7. If all is normal to this point, temporarily short the R/Y wire to the L/B wire on the headlight relay mating connector, turn the ignition key to “ON” and the headlight should illuminate. If so, replace the headlight relay.

If step 3 fails, then there is an issue with the HEAD fuse or associated wiring.

If step 5 fails, either the AC generator is not working or the diode block internal diode is open and not allowing rectified DC to reach the headlight relay, or the associated wiring or connectors are open.

 

Thank you again for the help and advice.
I conducted your test and I got an error on part 5.
I was not getting any power in whether the bike was on or not. to be fair I didnt ride it anywhere and just started it and checked the voltage.
I tried shorting the wires as part 7 with the only thing I could find which was my indicator lamp but this had no effect.
Also the turn signals dot blink but show solid light until I flick the switch in the other direction just a hair.

Also side note is it ok to have the neutral switch bypassed? it seems the previous owner has done it.
Should I look into

as Chitwood said or re do the tests after riding the bike a while?

 

As far as step 5 goes it sounds like it is not charging which could be at least part of your headlight issue. Check the running voltage at the battery, at idle, also at 2k rpm and above

 

You don't need to ride it to check that. This could indicate that the AC Generator is not working or as stated earlier a problem with the diode block or associated wiring.

So, connect the DMM across the battery, start the bike and see if the voltage climbs to around 14.5 volts when revved above 2000 rpm.

I don't consider the starter cutoff safety feature as important as the side stand safety, which you do not have on the earlier model. If it were mine, I would likely fix it, but depending on what the issue is I might put it off for an opportune time.

If that is a test light it should have illuminated, but the headlight would not light. You can use something as simply as a paperclip to jump the two, just double verify you are on the correct wires based on color code.

 

Just got done taking some friends out and about from another town to look into the bike again.

So Voltage climbs to 14 ish Volts from R/Y wire and White wire still has nothing.
When I shorted R/Y+ L/B headlight turned on when key tuned to ON.

what does the wise Rooster say about this ?

 

So since it appears your AC Generator is working it is likely the diode block has an open diode for the headlight relay. It should be located in the headlight bucket:

From http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/

"Identification:
- on all models except 1982 XJ750 Maxim and all XJ1100 models: a small, flat, thin rectangular shaped, housed within a soft rubber "sleeve" that is approximately 1" wide x 2" long x 1/8" thick, and has 3, 5, 6 or 7 wires coming out of one end and going into a black or white plastic connector shell."

It may smell burnt, which would be an obvious indication to replace it. If not, you can check the diodes with a DMM set to the diode scale. One direction should read approximately 540 ohms, reverse the probes and it should read open. D2 is the diode for the headlight relay. If it checks OK, you will need to check continuity on the main harness mating wires for those two pins. One will go to the headlight relay (white wire), and the other to one leg of the AC Generator (also white).

 

I don't have a diode tester on my multimeter but measured the 8 ohms in the diagram.
Im packing up my bike for the year since I have to leave for university.
Just bought some fuel stabilizer and will unplug the battery till next year.
Thank you very much for the help this summer !

 

So did it pass the sniff test of possibly burnt?

Good luck with your university studies.

 

Didn't smell anything burned but I wanted to be sure with a diode test!