1. Hello Guest. You have limited privileges and you can't "SEARCH" the forums. Please "Log In" or "Sign Up" for additional functionality. Click HERE to proceed.

Politics - I apologize

Discussion in 'Hangout Lounge' started by cds1984, Oct 30, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

    Messages:
    8,866
    Likes Received:
    1,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The room where it happened
    https://academic.oup.com/jid/articl...pVh80_vPExoCjh0NO3VanprpW5PXwL1iCku_uynPMcea8

    The Journal of Infectious Diseases, Volume 198, Issue 7, 1 October 2008, Pages 962–970
    David M.. Morens, Jeffery K. Taubenberger, Anthony S. Fauci

    "Conclusions: The majority of deaths in the 1918–1919 influenza pandemic likely resulted directly from secondary bacterial pneumonia caused by common upper respiratory-tract bacteria. Less substantial data from the subsequent 1957 and 1968 pandemics are consistent with these findings. If severe pandemic influenza is largely a problem of viral-bacterial copathogenesis, pandemic planning needs to go beyond addressing the viral cause alone (e.g., influenza vaccines and antiviral drugs). Prevention, diagnosis, prophylaxis, and treatment of secondary bacterial pneumonia, as well as stockpiling of antibiotics and bacterial vaccines, should also be high priorities for pandemic planning.


    Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to re-create the Spanish Flu virus (H1N1), as was done in 2005 by guess who:
    www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2005/10/scientists-recreate-1918-flu-virus-see-parallels-h5n1

    "Scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reconstructed the virus and tested it in laboratory animals, which quickly died. The CDC says the work, to be reported in Science, will enhance preparedness for the next flu pandemic, a potential benefit believed to justify the risk of recreating the virus and publishing the information.

    In a joint statement today, the directors of the CDC and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease (NIAID), Dr. Julie Gerberding and Dr. Anthony Fauci, said, "For the first time, researchers have deciphered the entire gene sequence of the 1918 virus and have used sophisticated techniques to assemble viruses that bear some or all of these genes so their effects can be understood.”



    “One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.”
    - Milton Friedman
     
  2. cds1984

    cds1984 Active Member

    Messages:
    902
    Likes Received:
    195
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Perth, Western Australia
    Damn... recreating a disease to play with it, surely that's what a secret moon base is for.
     
  3. JPaganel

    JPaganel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    147
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    And the point here is... ?

    If you don't get the primary virus, you don't get the secondary pneumonia. So, take measure to prevent that.

    Also, you might want to get a pneumonia vaccine, of you haven't already. It's available.





    Unless you got some evidence tying these two together, please drop the wink-wink-nudge-nudge. This is Apophenia talking.
     
    Rooster53 and k-moe like this.
  4. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

    Messages:
    19,613
    Likes Received:
    6,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The City of Seven Hills
    @chacal

    I have asthma (have had since I was 9). Sometimes I get the flu, and then about 50% of the time I get pneumonia afterward. I am very lucky that I have not had to be hospitalized with pneumonia so-far in my life. By my count I've had to be treated for it over a dozen times (most before a vaccine was available to me). Arguing semantics about the cause of death does not change the instigating factor, and has no bearing on whether or not to prevent the spread of disease, because death is not the only negative outcome.


    Around 50% of all motorcycle accidents are single-vehicle events, meaning that the rider is the instigating factor. What do we do to mitigate that? We make the easiest pathway toward licensure the taking of a motorcycle safety course (we could do better though). Most (still?) states also require riders to wear a helmet to mitigate the damage caused to the rider when an accident occurs. Motorcycle manufacturers are required to incorporate safety equipment on their machines (we caution against removing the safety relays all the time here, don't we?), again to mitigate the risks involved.

    Wear a mask, social distance, and get vaccinated when it becomes available to you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
    Rooster53 likes this.
  5. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

    Messages:
    8,866
    Likes Received:
    1,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The room where it happened
    I did too, rather bad when young, and lots of allergies, too. Got shots for almost 5 years, once a week, when I was young.....you can imagine how that went over! Luckily, I "outgrew" or was treated successfully enough that it's only a minor annoyance now.

    In regards to the "wear a mask, social distance, vaccinate" issue, I think that is great advice which should be voluntary, not mandatory, and a decision to be made by individuals depending on their particular situation and environment. I think they should also be aware of the risks of doing so. Very few things in the medical field are a clear-cut all-gain/no-risk type of situation.

    And although it may surprise some people, I was likely one of the earliest adapters of wearing a mask (and gloves, and eye protection), starting somewhere about late January /early February, as it was obvious by then that something was going on "over there", and it was likely to arrive over here soon enough. In fact, my friends would make fun of me (and some even refused to go into stores with me, saying that I was "scaring people"......I reminded them that the CDC was just a few miles down the road, and was probably getting test samples in from around the world, sort of a concentration point for what was being portrayed as a very serious problem. Of course, that observation made them even more skeptical.....). And these weren't the little "face diaper" type masks like you see nowadays; these were half-face respirators with dual N99 or P100 cartridges......real filters. The things that I observe most people wearing as "masks" are basically useless for disease prevention, they're a joke, they're a talisman as I pointed out previously.

    People who are at-risk or in a "hot zone" should probably take whatever prudent precautions that they feel are necessary, just as they would for any communicable disease....that's common sense, and, hopefully what such people have been doing for years and years during flu season, etc.


    I'm not so sure that this is necessarily true. It is also possible that the wholesale, constant use of masks leads to bacterial infections, as common sense might dictate. Bacteria are huge compared to viral particles, and thus quite a bit of expelled bacteria may remain in the mask and get re-introduced into the airways.......whereas viral particles will pass right thru most masks, medical-grade or not. So perhaps the mechanism is this: viral outbreak occurs, people mask-up, and thus give themselves respiratory bacterial infections, and they get sick and die from bacterial infections. Not saying that is true, but it certainly is worth exploring?

    Perhaps this is why the reported success with hydroxichloroquine (HCQ) and other treatment protocols that showed a lot of success: all of them included a antibiotic component in addition to the anti-viral properties found in HCQ.

    It is pretty well established that paper masks, cloth masks, home-made masks, masks with vents, designer masks, loose-fitting masks, masks improperly fitted, masks that people touch a lot (like, when speaking or eating or just in general) are ineffective at viral control. Virus particles are just too small, and the general population does not have the means, the money, the training, nor the knowledge of how to properly use masks even on a short-term basis (never mind all day, every day) for disease prevention control.


    Evidence in leiu of definitive, proven causality (i.e. what amounts to merely a theory/hypothesis/conjecture) requires connecting lots of little dots to get a better understanding of what is really "going on". So I thank you for the suggestion, but I'll probably keep exploring the data and evidence.


    An oldie but goodie:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzEdYlSjfEI

    The numbers have obviously changed since then, but the question around the 3:20 mark seems important.


    Oh, and "S. Peterson" was not available:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEo3rnU12jw&feature=youtu.be
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  6. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

    Messages:
    19,613
    Likes Received:
    6,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The City of Seven Hills
    FWIW. I used to have to wear a mask regularly for my old job (glass dust is bad to breathe), and know many longtime career nurses who have been wearing masks throughout 10-12 hour shifts for the past several months. Masks do not increase bacerial load or increase the susceptibility to respritory infections. There is plenty of nonanecdotal evidence to support that anecdotal observation.

    Everywhere is becoming a hot-zone, because far too many people did not adhere to reccomendtions earlier in the year.
    Rates that increase at an increasing rate get out of hand really quickly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  7. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

    Messages:
    8,866
    Likes Received:
    1,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The room where it happened
    Yes, exponential math is pretty iron-clad in it's expected outcome.


    Why do you say this?
     
  8. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

    Messages:
    19,613
    Likes Received:
    6,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The City of Seven Hills
    Your question relates directly to my first statement.

    Too many in the US (and in some cases abroad) have ignored guidelines and mandates (particularly certian politicians who have insisted that the whole thing is a hoax).
    Refer back to my earlier post about Midwest hospitals, and the additional news (not linked here) of schools returning to virtual learning.

    Also: Purple is bad.

    https://www.wlwt.com/article/ohio-has-its-first-purple-county-heres-what-that-means/34730074

    The increse in cases is not limited to Ohio.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  9. JPaganel

    JPaganel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    147
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    If this was true, you'd see pneumonia without COVID. Maybe even more pneumonia than COVID. And there is no evidence of that.

    Instead, what we are seeing is people getting COVID, and then developing pneumonia, likely due to shallow breathing and stagnation in the lungs. My dad's pneumonia came on two weeks after Covid. He wasn't great on mask wearing to begin with, and he stopped once he got sick, so you can't blame it on that.

    HCQ didn't show a lot of success.

    The people who claimed it did, had various flaws to their methods. One cherrypicked patients that were less sick and getting better, another was more or less anecdotal.

    Claims of HCQ being a huge success dwindled down a while ago. I can't really remember it being much in the news after that witch doctor woman. It may be somewhat useful as an anti-inflammatory, but there are other drugs that do the same.


    You don't exhale just virus particles. You exhale vapor. If even 5% of what you exhaled gets caught, it's still better than 0% of no mask. 5>0.


    That's the thing, though - what you have isn't evidence. It's a budding conspiracy theory. You mention a fact, and then invite people to make unfounded inferences. You make a show of impartiality, but really you are guiding the apophenia. Perhaps you don't realize it, but that's what you are doing.

    There is absolutely nothing to tie a pandemic starting in China with a completely different virus being re-created at the CDC.

    Labs work with various nasty stuff that is either rare or eradicated in the wild all the time. Yes, it is a good idea to do that. No, it isn't causing problems.

    That was... I don't now what that was. Some kind of performance art? Hypnosis? I can't take this spoon-feeding set to goopy music. It makes me itch. I gave up at about 30 seconds. I don't see how anyone can take this nonsense seriously.

    I have serious doubts as to the authenticity of this.

    A Dr. Hodkinson appears to exist, with the list of credentials mentioned, but he is the CEO of MedMalDoctors and Western Medical Assessments, both companies that provide expert testimony in malpractice lawsuits. They make no physical products. The supposed "biotechnology company selling COVID tests" is unnamed, and I can't find any information about it. I would think that if his other two companies list his information on their sites, that one should too.

    Literally everything else about him online is a copypaste of what's in that video, all of it on seedy conspirologist sites and in Facebook posts. There is no other confirmation of this.

    Lack of details about what this supposed meeting was, where it took place, who the other participants are, that's also very suspicious.

    Look, anyone can put together a video and say anything they want. Anyone with access to MS Teams can create a screen like that. I could do that right now, I have Teams for work. I could present myself as literally anyone, whose voice isn't well-known publicly. Note that the speaker doesn't have video on, and, judging by the icon, is calling into the meeting from a phone.

    On a side note, Teams has a built-in recording function, and the recordings don't show the screen sideways like that.


    Whether this guy is for real or not, I would love to have had him around with us to talk to the ICU team two days ago when they told us my dad was gone. And to the funeral home yesterday. Then, they could maybe show him the bodies. And what the damage is. And how the people in the ICU are. And tell him how our local military cemetery is booked weeks out. They told us they are running 25 funerals a day.

    Bad flu season, my ass.
     
    Rooster53 likes this.
  10. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,751
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Beaver Falls, PA
    from theory to practical, if i'm in the checkout line and someone without a mask gets in my face and starts spouting off about covid and masks, can i smack them upside the head with a can of beans
    and claim self defense?
     
    cds1984 and chacal like this.
  11. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

    Messages:
    8,866
    Likes Received:
    1,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The room where it happened
    What is a "case"?
     
  12. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

    Messages:
    19,613
    Likes Received:
    6,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The City of Seven Hills
    Are you seriously wanting to argue what that word means in the context of transmissible disease?
    I cannot imagine that you honestly don't know what the word means.
     
    ManBot13 likes this.
  13. JPaganel

    JPaganel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    147
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    [​IMG]
     
    k-moe likes this.
  14. Minimutly

    Minimutly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,746
    Likes Received:
    748
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    West Wales, uk
    Get a grip you two...
    One thing became clear today, whatever your beliefs, Giorgia voted to get rid of Trump, I won't comment further..
     
  15. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Fairfax, VA
    If we're being honest, you shouldn't be in the checkout line, you should be refused at the door if you don't have a mask. Will you politely walk away and go get one (or go home and order something delivery) or will you spout off about masks making no difference? Because that's the reality we've been in with people refusing to wear masks and claiming FREEDOM!!!!
     
  16. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Fairfax, VA
    A lot more states than Georgia voted to get rid of Trump, and millions more people too. Enough to win the electoral college AND the popular vote. And there's not a shred of EVIDENCE to the contrary.
     
    k-moe likes this.
  17. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

    Messages:
    19,613
    Likes Received:
    6,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The City of Seven Hills
  18. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Fairfax, VA
    Let me explain this to you k-moe. Back when the infection started and was growing exponentially, epidemiologists were warning of the exponential growth. Trump and right wing media claimed that there was no pandemic and it would all go away, and used the “case” definition as one explanation.<sarcasm off >

    Now that a quarter of a million Americans have died from it so far (far more than the annual flu deaths they kept going on about normalizing it) maybe the right wing media (Trump administration and Fox News) should reevaluate their predictions on the epidemic and who to trust (epidemiologists instead of crack pots and witch doctors) and admit they were wrong. There’s still a pandemic raging, and still lots to do to show it down. Even if, sadly, it’s already too late for some (sorry for your loss JPaganel).
     
    Franz, JPaganel and k-moe like this.
  19. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

    Messages:
    19,613
    Likes Received:
    6,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The City of Seven Hills
    The John Birch wing of the Republican party is never wrong, and never reevaluates anything. Hence the huge mess we are in.
     
  20. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

    Messages:
    8,866
    Likes Received:
    1,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The room where it happened
    I'm not wanting to argue, I simply asked what the word means, in the context of this situation. Definitions are important, certainly something as simple as this can be a source of agreement?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page