Starter Clutch Repair help needed.- RESOLVED!!!

Not wanting to jump into splitting the case on my 11,000 mile 750 I'm hoping the problem with the starter clutch is that is has been sitting for 3 years & is gummed up. I ran into the orig owner tonight & he said he never had any problem with the starter.

I know I have good circuitry all the way from the start switch through the solenoid & to the starter. The starter turns over very fast, but the clutch doesn't kick in to turn over the motor. I am attempting the seafoam lub bath to try & loosen the clutch dogs & springs up, but since the bike is a way from running I can't add the seafoam to my oil & run the bike through a number of hot/cold cycles.

I'm hoping to get to the clutch through the generator opening and so far I
Got the nut off the generator this morning by wrapping a 1" tie down strap several times around the gen & threading it through the frame & tied off to foot peg. So in gear with my foot on the brake I torqued down till the strap tightened up & she broke free.

OK, now about pulling it off the shaft.. I have a bunch of diff pullers, mostly 3 leggers, but could not find a good place to hook onto on the back of the contact plate. I have no holes to thread into. Even tried a two leg set up, but when I started to put torque on it it seemed as the the front plate started to warp...

How the heck are you supposed to grab this thing & pull it??

While I was in there I shot it with some PB blaster on the threads for my next attempt.

If anyone has a photo with the puller on I'd appreciate it!

Thanks for all the patience & input thus far.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

If you look closely, you will see the inner bore of the rotor is threaded. You need the rotor puller to thread into that, then torque it down to retract the rotor. Since this is on a tapered shaft, you can simply load up the puller bolt, then hit it smartly straight down onto the top of the head, and it should pop right off and you can pull it out by hand. That buckling plate doesn't sound good though.

I made a puller from a cheapo harmonic balancer puller bolt that I shortened. It had the exact proper thread (M16X1.5)

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

The way to pukll the rotor off is not with a 3 legged gear puller type tool. You will need (frommemory so anyone correct me here) the appropriate sized threaded bolt to fit into the centre of rotor/shaft. I think again from memory it might be a reverse thread.

Applying pressure on the bolt and eventually turning it (the thread is on the inside of the rotor) it will force and push against the shaft to gently lever the roto off the shaft.

Anyone else want to buy in on this process. Like I said doing it all from memory but the rotor puller on the XJ900 is a single bolt and nothing more. I have it my Haynes manual so will check tonight and refer back tomorrow.

It's a courageous operation you're entering into and we'll try to help.

Back tomorrow with the details...

K.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I guess I'm missing something, isn't the treaded portion the inside if the tapered shaft? If so, how does threading into that pull the rotor off?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Hi Folks,
I'm following this post closely, because I have the same issue. I just want to ask: Are the special tools, (Rotor holding tool, Rotor puller and Attachment), mentioned in the Yamaha Service Manual, still available or obtainable?
Thanks for your help.
Bill

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Folks, as Mack pointed out, you MUST use an M16-1.50 ( I confirmed this measurement again just last night. Actual bolt diameter on my Pro-Motion tool and extra bolt is 15.80mm) bolt to press this rotor off. DO NOT use a puller, you WILL damage your rotor IRREVOCABLY! This bolt is standard right-hand thread. Pro-Motion sells the tool or you simply buy a hardened bolt. That is it, no magic, no secret handshake.
I have never had to hit the bolt head, all of my efforts had the rotor fall off with ease.
Roverguy, very ingenious using the strap! You get two gold stars!

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Thanks, I hope my black mark for starting to pull the rotor with the wrong tool doesn't come back to bite me...

P.S. I've been sucking everyone for info for the last week or so as a Newbie on Bikes. I'm hoping I can contribute some of my knowledge & tips that work for me.

Wheather it be this forum, or my British Car forum I always learn something new.

That's why these forums are so great!

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Hey Rover Guy,
I scaned these images from the Service Manual. The Roter puller is just a bolt to fit the hole, and the attachment is just a steel dowel small enough to fit into the hole. Together they push the rotor off the shaft.
Bill

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

just use a bolt it'll come right off
mcmaster carr # Part Number: 91180A830 $ 3.80
i have the springs and rollers still in the bags if someone wants them $10

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Bought a 16mm 1-1/2" bolt on way home from work. Will give it a try after diner.

So the treaded part is part of the rotor, not the shaft? I think I got it!

 

SUCCESS!

Now that I got it through my thick head how the rotor is held on I was successful in my endeavor.

Just tourqed down the 16mm bolt, quite tight I might add & it popped off!

Used the 1" strap wrapped around it & tied off to the frame.

For those attempting this it's set up like this:

The drive shaft of the gen is threaded, that's the nut you see in the center of the rotor when you pull the cover off.

The rotor shaft is threaded at the outside, the 16mm & tapered on the inside which slips over the drive shaft.

When you drive the 16mm nut in it contacts the end of the drive shaft & pushes the rotor off.

I thought I was pulling the rotor off, infact you are pushing it off by threading the rod in.

I didn't even use a plug inside the hole in between the 16mm & the drive shaft & it worked well.

Once that is off the three Torx screws are the next task. Of course I got one free & the other two started to strip using a socket drive torx & my hand impact. I was getting really nervous, so pulled out my air impact for the first time & popped those two babies off, although they need to be replaced it's much easier than drilling them.

I pulled the drive shaft out the whole assly dropped down as expected. I couldn't actually see the clutch & the springs & dogs. I just flooded the whole inside of the chamber with seafoam; actually OMC branded stuff that breaks up gunk like the dickens. I'll let that soak & see how that goes.

Oh, & another minor victory, after 2 weeks of soaking the gas cap I finally got it to open. A few squirts of PB Blaster & it works smooth as silk. It was just dry, so the small clips wouldn't retract.

Yea, one step at a time....

To all those helping me through this far thanks alot.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Yeah! Way to go, and neatly too.
Roverguy, would all my help be worth $10? (I'm kidding here).
Polock, I'd be interested in them. I expect to do a clutch before too long.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Robert:

Your help was worth more than $10, if you are ever on the "right coast" look me up I'll buy you a cold one at the local Pub!

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Got home a little early today as I was excused from Jury duty. So After I got the gen removed & really blasted the entire area of the clutch starter with seafoam last night I thought I'd try spinning the starter, if for no other reason that to let it spray some of the foam around.

Not to my surprise the starter spins just as fast as ever, i.e. no clutch engagement. Can anyone tell me for sure that if the starter clutch is not engaging that the motor will spin 3-400 rpm & it sounds as tho it's also turning the idler gear. As a matter of fact I can feel the gen drive shaft vibrate slightly, so I assume it is turning the clutch.

I treaded the bolt into the driveshaft, pulled the plugs, pulled the starter & used a sped wrench to spin the driveshaft forward & reverse as fast I could, again hoping to either spray the foam around, or even loosen up the dogs. I know my hand spinning is not even close to the starter speed, but nothing to loose. Then I used my air gun set on med to tighten the bolt, more to actually shake the drive shaft as it locked up, but again no luck.

Just to be absolutley sure; I had pulled the starter apart & cleaned it out. I notice the idler wheel that the starter contacts to drive the clutch only spins in one direction. There is no poss way I could have the starter spinning in the wron direction I assume?

I spoke to the orig owner the other night & he says he never had any starter issues, that's why I am asking this question.

Remember the bike only has 11,000 miles on it, so I doubt it could be a wear issue.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

The clutch will only turn over the engine in one direction and is designed to prevent return transmission of crank power to the starter. I would put the alternator shaft back into the clutch and see if you can turn the engine with it. And no, you could not be turning the starter over backwards unless you hooked up the battery leads crossed (you do know to ground the case first and then apply the positive power to the terminal stud right?).

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Rob:

I did put the drive shaft back in & with the plugs out & bike in neutral can turn the engine over with a nice pop from the spark plug bores. This also bodes well for the fact that the engine doesn't appear to have been harmed form sitting.

Yea, I know about the +/- on the starter, that dc voltage, unlike ac will reverse the direction of rotation of a motor. I was just doing the "idiot" test to be sure I didn't do something dumb.

Hope for the best on the clutch dogs freeing themselves up.

Maybe an exorcism is needed?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Rover, If those springs free themselves up, can you really trust them enough to put everything back together, and not replace them? Think of all the grief you've gone through to get this far. Make sure this is the only time you have to do this.
Bill

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Proto:

I could do this whole exercise in less than 2 hours next time.

I'd rather contribute my time to getting the bike running & on the road before winter to see if it's something I want to put more money & time into over the winter. If the case has to come apart it's gonna take a back shelf to alot of other projects on my to do list.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

It sounds like you have eliminated any other causes for your issues. Open that clutch pack up and start cleaning to see what lives in there.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

just a thought, if it looks anything like this, replacing the springs and rollers
won't do much good
i don't remember if you see this side through the alternator hole, it's been a while
it started the bike sometimes

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Ouch, no, it's hidden by the gear cluster. I would hope not, as the PO says he never had any problems with starting. So, the springs push the dogs out towards the face of the plate, or to the outside circumference?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Just caught up with this earlier thread as follows:

Just to be absolutley sure; I had pulled the starter apart & cleaned it out. I notice the idler wheel that the starter contacts to drive the clutch only spins in one direction. There is no poss way I could have the starter spinning in the wrong direction I assume?

Funny you should mention this...I had the starter off a while ago to replace the brushes and when I tested it it went fine - when I put it back on the bike it ran fine as well, but didn't engage the starter clutch??? After a thorough CSI type investigation I discovered that I had rotated the brush plate around from where it should have been causing the starter motor to run in reverse. Of course when it does this, via the idler gear to the starter clutch, it is actually spinning the starter clutch in the direct it would normally go when the engine is running; i.e. in a reverse direction where the rollers do not bit into the clutch but spin freely. Once I fixed the brush plate the starter ran in the right direction and engaged the clutch.

Leave no stone unturned...so easy to rotate the brush plate. There is no notch to fit it in place but if you look at the diagram in the Haynes manual closely there is a particular "line-up" point. Not obvious but it is there.

Before going further just check that the starter motor is running in the right direction..Also, with the starter motor out you should be able to put your finger through the hole and turn the idler gear in one direction but not the other (from memory but I could be wrong). If this is the case the starter clutch is probably OK.

Keep us posted as this is one operation where there are a few posts on the site but no detailed step by step photos. I did the operation but neglected to document it.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Red:

I had posted this question thinking exactly the same thing as I had spun the idler noticing it only went in one direction. I do remember fiddling with the brush assly, not about rotating it, but wouldn't that be awesome if that were the issue!

Does anyone have a copy of the diagram showing the brush orientation?

Hope exists!

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Ok, my curiosity got the best of me, plus the Red Sox are in the 14th battleing Tampa Bay at 1-1 so put the radio on in the garage.

Pulled starter apart & checked the tab that aligns the brushes, can only go one way, besides that wouldn't make it spin backwards, it's still a plus/minus thing (polarity).

I did check the rotation of the starter before I put it in & it would spin the idler in the opp direction to engage the clutch!! What the heck??

The only way to reverse it would be to change the polarity & even though the cable from the start solinoid is black it is positively charged as the St mtr is grounded to the frame.

I don't think I could have assembled the end with the drive gear & two pinion gears wrong??

If anyone can tell me, does your starter motor spin clockwise as you look at it from the left side of the bike.

I'm tired & confused & the Sox just gave up a 3 run home in the top of the 14th.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

If you think 9 innings of baseball can be frustrating for your favourite team you should try Test Cricket in its 5 day form. Five minutes before the end of the final session on day 5 and the home team need 6 runs to win...and what happens...they score 5 runs, draw the game after batting and bowling 2 innings each after 5 days. Good grief, pass me a beer...

I'll get my Haynes manual and scan the image of the starter although you might find it on a Yamaha parts website - the exploded diagram, which I think is what the Haynes manual takes it from anyway.

Sounds more and more like the brushes may be only 90 degrees out of alignment which is causing it to rotate in the opposite direction...especially if you can spin the idler gear in one direction but not the other. I did what I thought were all the correct steps when I cleaned the starter motor and replaced the brushes - put it back on the bike and round and round it spun not engaging on anything. Worked like a charm...but not in the right direction.

The brush plate may have a tab but I recall that there are several tabs/indents.
Anyone got the link for the Yamaha parts website...you can find the exploded diagram for the starter motor and the starter clutch well reproduced.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

By the way, there should be only one way to reassemble the other end of the starter motor with the enclosed 2 orbital gears so no way should that be a factor in what may be happening.

I hate to nag,but...check the starter and brush plate alignment before you perform open heart micro surgery on the starter clutch.
I hate to nag,but...check the starter and brush plate alignment before you perform open heart micro surgery on the starter clutch.
I hate to nag,but...check the starter and brush plate alignment before you perform open heart micro surgery on the starter clutch.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Red:

I went into the garage & pulled the starter apart, looked to be assembled correctly as there was one tab bent down that was in a slot in the S Mtr case. I also compared it to the parts manual. Their is only one way the brush assy can go in from a front back direction as the wire is not long enough to flip it around.

Does anyone have a starter out of their bike they can jump start to see which direction it spins in. Same think if they have motor apart as for the idler gear.

Oh, by the way the Sox lost 4-2 in 14 innnings..............

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Last weekend I took my starter off, disassembled, cleaned the armature and the whole shibang for no reason other than I,m waiting on some parts and figured it needed it. I even bench tested it before reinstalling but didn't pay attention to the direction of spin.
If you don't get an answer by tonight I will pop it back off and confirm for you, it'll only take about a beer and 1/2 start to finish.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Capt:

Most appreciated.

Another question, if the starter is spinning in the right direction but the clutch dogs are bad can you see any of the internal gears behind the clutch pack spinning?

My starter spins really fast when in & it almost feels like I can get a vibration from the gen drive shaft if I hold onto it.

Sure seems like it's spinning backwards if the clockwise direction causes the idler gear to spin freely?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Okay I snuck home from work and pulled the starter off.
On the bench with the starter gear closest to me, mounting bolt holes and cable attachment away from the starter spins clockwise, this would spin the gear it engages in the case down. On my bike that gear pushed down would spin the engine and spun up is free-wheeling.
Hope this helps, I will leave the starter out if you want to confirm anything else.
On a side note the Reno Air Races are going on so we have the Thunderbirds screaming over once in awhile, pretty cool.
Good luck.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Woow, if my memory serves me correctly mine spins opposite, as in if you are looking at the starter when it is mounted it spins clockwise, that would be the opposite of what you are saying if I understand you correctly..

One more time:

If you are looking at the starter gear (the side that drive the engine it spins clockwise).

To be sure, you gounded the case, & ran + (hot) to the starter lead nut?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Yes ...case grounded, positive to nut, spins clockwise facing the gear, spins gear in case down.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Can't wait to get home to try this..

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I'm on the edge of my seat too! It sounds to me like it's something simple and you will be on the road once you put your finger on the problem. I would confirm the polarity of the battery with a meter. I knew a guy who actually trickle charged one backwards and after much hair pulling we found it acually read backwards with the meter. I know no one believes this, it seems as if someting catastrophic should have happened to the battery or the charger or both but I tell you it happened, Check your polarity. Always start with the simplest explanation.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I've done dummer things. I am actually running all my tests with a portable jumper power pack, had the same results with my known to be good auto battery.

Sounds like the polarity is switched. DC is funny that way.

I checked the wiring diagram & it shows the + (hot) to the solinoid & hot from there to the starter. It is weird that the cable the starter is black though..???

Could I have re-assembled the starter incorrectly?

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I would check you battery polarity FIRST. If somehow your plus and minus are swapped you could have some electrical damage. TCI comes to mind maybe other devices....

I'm also not sure the motor will turn backwards even if hooked up in reverse. At least I have read that auto starters will not and I don't think they are much different in design. I would love to be proved wrong on this in your case because a simple fix would be great.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

You would have to reverse the brushes for it to run backwards (180 degrees) I think. I'm not sure that is possible with the cable length. I have had mine apart twice. There are locater slot in the plate the brushes mount to and tabs in the housing so you should be able to see if you have it in right. I don't think the starter goes back together properly if the plate is not seated correctly.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I can't remember what I did with the brush plate to make my starter go in the opposiitie direction but I did manage it - I do know that it was out of alignment and therefore had the effect of making it spin in the wrong direction.

Now, if I've done it correctly there should be an atachment that shows the exploded diagram of the starter...

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Interesting Red I'm not sure how you could that either but obviously you have proved it possible.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

I didn't think about this before until seeing the diagram but now it occurs to me that if the orientation of the brushes is shifted around the axis then that would change the relationship with the permanent magnets in the housing, maybe it is as simple as realigning the brush plate with the correct tab.

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

The interesting thing captain is if you shift the plate the locating tab will hold the plate up at an angle and make it difficult at best to get it back together. I know I tried

Anyway I won't speculate any further - hopefully that's all the problem is..

 

Re: Starter Clutch Repair help needed.

Yeah I hate guessing.

 

SUCCESS!!!!!



Thanks to all the input & inspiration. I have resolved the problem.
I did have the brush plate rotated about 10 degrees out which causes the orientation to the permanent magnets in the starter body to spin the starter in the wrong direction.

Thanks esp CapNemo for sneaking out of work & confirming the correct rotation of my starter! I thought I was losing my mind.

You guys saved this project. Now I don't have to split the case!

However I got some good wrenching experience on my first bike. I can honestly say I could now pull the starter & rebuld it in probably an hr.

I can also say I could pull the generator & do any work in that area.

I don't know why I had bent one of the tabs over to line up with the notch, but now that I think back I remember a little hickup when I was reassembling the brush plate.

See the attached sketch with the hint on re assembly.

Again guys, thanks!!

 

Right on!
I'll be in Cohasset at the beginning of November and I'll collect my beer then.

 

Right on!
I'll be in Cohasset at the beginning of November and I'll collect my beer then.

 

I'm in Melbourne, Australia and I'll have to take a raincheck on the beer but I'll keep checking my postbox each day anyway...

Good collective work folks.

 

Red:

You too were instrumental in getting me through this.

Thanks

 

Great news - I'm surprise that the small rotation caused the issue so I learned something new. I see how you got it back together now. Like I said earlier I did the same thing but could not get it back together and discovered my problem.

 

Man I'd love to be there. ^^^ I hope you are enjoying it enough for us all!

 

I'm cranked, now I can thnk about pulling the carbs & cleaning out the fuel system