How badly did I screw up?

Hi, I'm new to the site, but I've already found it pretty helpfull.

If you want to skip the long story, and cut strait to the point, jump to the last paragraph


I just bought an 82 XJ650 Maxim a week or so ago (first bike; brand new to motorcycles). I've been fiddling with it (dont minor things, nothing to complicated) stuff like new spark plugs (old ones were pretty carbon fouled) and cleaned out the gas tank. Well, while I had the gas tank off and being cleaned, I decided to try and locate a little electric gramlin that I'd noticed the day before (headlight stopped working, as did the dash light for it)

Anyways, I figured since the bike has a reserve (I assumed a sepparate tank, but this doesnt seem to be the case. Well, on to my real problem, and the part where I feel like an idiot.

I was looking for this reserve tank, and cam accross the crank case. I opened it up, and I smelled the cap, and it smelled like gasoline, so I figured this was the reserve tank that I had been looking for (see where this is going?) So, I start the bike, and it runs for a minute or so, and then dies (out of gas), so I decide to put some gas into what I thought was the reserve tank, and tried starting the bike. For obvious reasons the bike did not start, so I gave up and waited untill I put the fuel tank back on.

After I got the fuel tank back on (and a freshly recharged batery) I went to crank it up, and it runs like crap now (who didnt see that coming?) I realised, after running it for a total of probably 5 minutes, what my mistake was. :cry:


So, I put gas into the crank case, thinking it was the a reserve gas tank, and ran it for about 5 minutes before I realised what I had done. What damage has this potentially done, and how can I fix it? I would think that an oil change (or 2) is in line, but I would like some feedback from those who know what thier talking about.


PS: I have heard of adding solevants to oil (like kerosene), so I'm hoping that gas might not be so far off from that, and it has dont little or no damage.

Thanks for any help,

Shawn

 

First, welcome to the site. I think you'll find a lot of really good advice here. We've all done dumb things to our bikes and some of us can't claim that it was due to our being new to bikes!

Second, Where exactly did you add the gas? When you say the crank case, do you mean that you added it where one would normally add oil? Left side of the bike on top of the big round cover?

If so, I don't think you did any harm, but it's understandable why the bike isn't running. I would immediately drain the oil from the bike. The lug is near the filter cover on the bottom of the front of the engine. You will also need to replace the filter. The filter is pretty cheap as is the oil, so I doubt you've made an expensive mistake.

I am by no means a serious mechanic and others here will probably chime in with other issues. Had you run the engine for a long time with thinned oil, you could have done some damage, but my guess is that after only 5 minutes you're safe.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

Greg

 

Actualy it was on the right side of the bike. Big round thing with a screw-cap on the top of it. I am going by a picture out of the haynes manual. It calls this the crank case, and it says this is where you would add oil as well.


How urgent is it for me to change the oil? I am about to head off to work, and I doubt I will have time to do it untill the weekend. Will it hurt it to sit with gas in the oil? I might be able to get it done tomarrow, if theres achance of serious damage, but I'll be fairly busy (work, and an MSF course to go to)

Thanks for the reply. I also found a thread where SnoSherrif accidently left his petcock on prime, and gas flooded the oil, and he ended up changing the oil and everything being OK. I'm resting a little easier now knowing this.

Thanks!

 

Right side. My mistake. I don't think it's that urgent. Just don't run the bike in its current state. Not at all. And be sure to change the filter as well.

Best,

Greg

 

Welcome to our humble place KanesSon. I hate to hear of this woops, it could be fairly harmless and it could have done some very serious damage. The lifeblood of the engine is oil, period. Without it, cams weld themselves to cam blocks and heads and motors seize. I'm hoping that you ran the motor at idle only and did not rev it up at any point in time. The cams ride on a very thin film of oil and it WILL damage the cam if this film is lost. Petroleum will thin out oil without any problems (being a distallate of oil and all) but will provide (and I'm being very generous here) a slight measure of surface tension. As to weather or not it was enough is a good guess. I would seriously hope so but the only way to be sure would be to pull the cam blocks and look at the cam bearing surfaces (this is relitively easy, pull the fuel tank and the valve cover). Another point is that gas is much thinner than oil and the oil pump may not have been able to develop enough pressure to get the gas up to the top end (but being a tricordial type pump, odds are pretty good it did). Best of luck to you, you are not alone on the learning curve. We've all been there one time or another.

 

Well you're not the first one to look for the reserve tank. And gas in the oil is actually common for XJ's. When the petcock (fuel valve) leaks it leaks fuel in to the oil. That maybe why you thought it was the reserve tank. So we have mucho experience with fuel in the oil and some of those bikes were started and run for several miles. I did this to mine and still put another 30K miles on it.
So if you smelled fuel instead of oil then you "may", ( more on that later) have found your first XJ specific anomally. Changing the oil is of course mandatory but you need to remove the fuel line from the petcock and place the petcock setting to "ON". If fuel drips out then it needs changing too. Now before you go out and buy a new one you have the option of rebuilding it or taking it apart and stretching the spring inside so that it will close and work right again.
You also need to know the petcock settings. "ON" is where it should be left for all conditions. "RES" is reserve and it works as you most likely now know by pulling fuel from lower in the main tank. You switch to it when the bike runs out of gas while riding. "PRI" is the prime setting. You use this when you remove the tank and run the bike running all fuel out of it. This setting allows fuel to run freely into the carbs and fill them with fuel after all fuel has been drained or used. The petcock should NEVER be left in this position. If it was then this is why you smelled fuel in the oil. So you may not have found your first XJ anomally and only need to leave the petcock in the "ON" setting to relieve your problem.
If you still want to check the petcock by removing the fuel line remember there are two lines attached to the petcock. The larger one is fuel and the smaller one is vacuum. You only need to remove the larger fuel line to see if it drips in the "ON" position. Remove it from the petcock and look for fuel to leak from the petcock. Keep the fuel line up unless you want gas on your pant leg. And please don't smoke while doing this! Let us know what you find and we'll be here to help!

 

I checked the petcock while I had the tank off to clean it, and had to take the petcock apart and fiddle with it untill it didn't leak anymore (probably why I smelled fuel in the crank case to begin with). I was aware of all of the settings of the petcock, unlike the previous owner who thought that 'pri' meant 'primary'- fortunately for me the dealer he bought the bike at told him to NEVER put it on this setting, as he told me the same thing when I bought it.


Tomarrow I will see about getting the oil changed, and fixing the starter button as well (man was that thing corroded!)


Here's hoping that I didn't damage the cams. :-\ Because I did rev it some while I had it running.

 

Ok glad you know about the settings. I really wouldn't worry too much about the cams. Like I said, many here have had this issue and have ridden their bikes for miles before they discovered the fuel in the oil. Those bikes are still going strong.
You probably do have a float valve in one of the carbs that isn't seating well. This allowed the fuel to overflow the carb and get into the crankcase in the first place. But I wouldn't dive into the carbs yet. If you found crud in the petcock then that was your main problem.
Starter buttons are another XJ problem. New one if needed an be purchased from www.partsmore.com

 

KanesSon
If you change the oil and the filter, the residual gasoline in the oil should cook off after a fairly good ride, about 10 miles or so. Then smell the oil filler cap area and see if it still smells strong like gas, it should be better but once it does smell clean you should smell and check once and a while to make sure your carb is not leaking again.
Another way is to not fill above the oil sight glass and if sudenly you see the oil level climb... then you know something is up.
By the way, by now you should know that the Reserve tank is built into the main gas tank, it's just a small amount set aside in case you start to run out.
Good Luck
Mike

 

I couldn't seem to get the last little bit out of my tank when it was set to prime, but that was even with the tank off and tilting the tank around to get the gas down to the petcock

 

The only way I know to get it really empty is to pull the petcock off and tilt it around until nothing else comes out. :cry:
If your going to paint or clean out the tank, that is the only way to get it all out though.

 

I found this to be true as well.

 

So I am in the middle of the oil change, and drained the sump, and the middle gear drain. Now I need to change the filter. I think I know where it it (forward and above the sump- single bolt).

I tried taking this off, but it won't budge. The bolt looked fairly decent (not stripped) untill I tried getting it off, not its practicly round!

I'v got to go to an MSF course now, so this is gonna have to wait untill later tonight.

I don't really have a plan of attack yet. Any suggestions? (preferably ones that wont require buying anything- as I'm really short on cash for the next 2 weeks (the oil/filter) was about all I could muster.

I have a moderately stocked garage/toolbox, so hopefully I can figure something out.

 

Sears ... Tools Dept ... Craftsman Tools ... Hand Tools ... Sockets ... Specialty Tools ... you'll see EXACTLY what you need ... (Hint: They have sockets that will remove rounded-off hexes.) Go quick ... they're ON SALE until Monday!

 

Big deal, my GS did it when I left in prime, the vulcan did it cos its a freaking kawi ... and they got no clue how to build a petcock, and it just rinses out the crap and you should've drained it all when still hot ... nice clean motor ... and yea chase it with like 1-2 runs of oil to be extra safe ... and shake the motor etc and get it all out form the top etc.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

I have used a hack saw to cut a slot in the rounded head and then used a very broad bladed, two handed screwdriver to remove it. You may also wish to try an impact driver as well. Worst case, I've seen folks use a chisel to get the bolt to turn. I've also used the trusty eazy-out successfully (hint: reverse twist drill bits are a God send). Ruins the bolt but you get the old oil filter out. Be sure to have a new bolt on order or in hand before you begin. The filter is stuck simply because the PO over torqued the bolt (which the owners and maintenance manuals both warn against for this very reason). The correct torque value is even cast onto the filter housing. I have also heard of simply fileing flats on the remaining stub and using a large pipe wrench to finish the job. What ever route you take, replacement is the result. Best of luck to you.

 

Very Bad , but not dangerously

 

Well, I'm gonna give that Bolt Out thing a try.

I took a look at OldBikeBarn for a new oil filter bolt, and the dang thing is $20! 8O Is that some kind of sick joke? I'm gonna try to salvage the bole thats in there before I shell out that kind of cash for a bolt (Then I'll try getting one off of a wrecked bike at a yard or something).

Anyone know if these things are universal (I'm guessing not :roll: )?

 

They are used in a wide range of Yamahas. XS, XJ, FZR, FJ, and maybe a few others I'm unaware of. $20 delivered is acceptable, but I know that the bolt can be had for a bit less, shop it, they are not that hard to come by.

 

It's not just a bolt ... It a well engineered Safety Valve, too. Don't think of the 20-Bucks as cost for a bolt. Think of it as an investment for saving you time and aggrivation for the next time you have to do a filter change. You're time is valuable. The new part, with a dab of NeverSeize on the threads, will whip right in there and be a breeze to remove next time you change oil. No Federal Case ... just apply tool -- extract bolt -- change filter -- replace etc. -- and be done with it! Compromise will eventually swing-back around to haunt you. Pop for the new one. 20-bucks! That's no big deal for a NEW one. You can get a good one in a salvage yard. Brand new, almost ... the reason the bike's in a salvage yard is because the owner never changed the oil ... the bolt should be in great shape!

 

Ebay my friend.

Sooooo many parted out XJ's, there's nearly a steady flow of parts.

 

Partsnmore.com has the filter bolt for $9.

 

I picked up 2 of the filter bolts from Shade Tree Motorcycle for 3.50USD each. I think with shipping it was less than 15 bucks.

 

Well, I sprung for the 'Bolt Out' today, and it (eventually) worked.

So, I got the filter off, and did the ole hacksaw trick and turned the bolt into a flat head screw. I'll check the bike yard next time I'm there and see if I can't find one that will work.


So, I filled it back up with oil, and fired her up. IMMEDIATE DIFFERENCE. Purred like a kitten.

I have one concern now though. There is a very pronounced clicking coming from the engine (Valves? Cam lifters?). I deffinately heard the clicking before this whole oil-in-gas fiasco, but I think it's more pronounced now (or maybe I am just listening harder to it). I bought some Seafoam, and was going to run it through to see what happens, but I'm not sure now that this clicking sound has my ear.
Anyone have any thoughts on that?

 

Is it static or does it increase/decrease with RPMs?

 

The frequncy of the clicking increases with the RPMs, but I think it starts sounding a little more faint the higher I rev the engine.

 

How long have you had the bike and what type and weight of oil are you using? Did the bike sit in someones garage for a season or two?

 

Classic valve train noise. (You hope!)

OK ... you have to dive-in and measure all your valve clearances. If you find the clearances to be "wide" ... but, within specs. Good. Leave them alone. The "Ticking noise" you are hearing are the valves closing very securely.
Valves closing completely = Good. Valves closing NOT completely ... because the clearance between the cam lobe and shim is too tight = Bad.
So, if you hear ticking from the valve train ... you can relax and not worry because you know that your valves are closing "gas-tight." If they ARE NOT ticking ... there is the distinct possibility that performance will suffer when the hot gases escaping past a valve NOT closing completely will eventually overheat and burn that valve and cause you to need a "Valve job."
You definitely WANT to hear your exhaust valves ticking. A tight exhaust valve is going to burn and start the viscous cycle that can lead to catastrophic engine failure.
Valve is tight. Gasses escape between valve and seat. Valve and / or seat burn. Compression is lost. Performance suffers. Valve burns and deteriorates allowing gas to escape very easily. Minimum compression results. Minimum compression allows piston to rise without any compression resistance. No resistance on piston places heavy strain on pistons connecting rod. Rod subsequently fails. (Throwing a rod) Engine knocks, seizes or explodes. You need new engine or new bike after being discharged from hospital.
Check your valves clearances. It's required maintenance. Adjust the valves by changing the shims -- ONLY -- if they are OUT of specs.
Out of specs means BOTH ways. Too tight outside the limit. Too loose outside the limit. Too tight ... you risk burning the valves. Too loose ... you risk "Throwing a shim" Both of those scenarios are season-ending; wallet-busting situations you can avoid by popping the cam cover and spending a few minutes checking things over with a your feeler gauges.
Like the NIKE ad says ...
"Just do it!"

 

Clicking - If its worst just above idle, and disappears as you pick up rpm and practically non existent by ~4-5K, Yea they do that ... they turn into a buzzy noise after that 4K or so and you lose it in the racket the motor is making. BTW a GS500 with 1/2 the valves and 1/2 the cylinders will click loud enough to make you wanna toss it in the nearest ravine ... and its valve clearances are 1 thou to 3 thou of an inch. Maxim is at 5-7 intake and 7-9 exhaust ... can you say clack like a MOFO ... I set em tight on a GS and can hear them still, each individual one ... and I can tell when its time to adjust ... again 1 at a time ... Literally ... going from 1 thou to 2 thou, I can tell its going up - takes like 1000+ miles ... but yea.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

YEp your probably correct , your listening harder , its amazing what one does not hear until one has to listen intently and all these other noises turn up + imagination too. good to hear [excuse the pun]your sorting it out!

 

I agree with the guys that it is more than likely you listening more intently. These valves do make noise. But it wouldn't hurt to adjust your camchain tensioner. Just loosen the jam nut on the end , listen for a click which means it was slack or no click which means it wasn't and retighten the jam nut.

 

Man, I really need that XJCD, I have no idea how to tighten the canchain tentioner (or where it is, or what it looks like, or what it does...)

Hopefully my haynes manual will have something in there- I'm gonna give it a shot.

 

The Haynes will tell you how to set up the chain for tensioning adjustment. It is very simple. Pop the left crank cover, rotate the engine twice in the normal direction (sorry, dont' have the book handy or I'd tell you), open the adjuster screw and tighten it back up. Simple.

 

Just going back to your earlier post about your filter bolt. I had the same problem but it was the drain plug. Whoever tightened it, really messed it up! I tried several things to get it loose and ended up using my heavy duty impact gun on it. It pulled all of the aluminum threads out with it! Wow, was I PO. Had to order a one over self tapping plug. Put it all back together with new filter and started pouring the new oil in and saw a puddle developing on the concrete.
This is a design flaw that most Japanese bikes have, they use a steel plug in an aluminum case! Well after a few hours of searching, I found a crack right above the plug. Geesh!!! What next?
Well I ordered this special aluminum brazing rod that you suposedly can use with propane or mapp torch. I used the mapp. I ground the vee in the crack and started the braze. The brazing rod just ran off it even after using a half tank of mapp heating it!
Removed the exaust headers and pipes and the oil pan.
Went on e-bay and bought a used pan pan for 5.50 plus 5.00 shipping, bought ne gasket and it's done! Ta Da! and so is this blog! Heh Heh!