Turn Signal Solutions Welcome

Hey all. I'm new to the site, and thankful theres such a good resource for XJ Bikes. This is great!

I'm having trouble with a set of after market signals I just bought for my 81 Maxim XJ650 that operate at 12v 23W.
I've hooked them up correctly, and when I flip the turn signal switch to indicate a turn, the blinkers stay completely solid. if I drop it back to the off position they turn off.
I know the old bulbs run at 12v 27W (which still work fine when I've hooked them back up).

My thinking is that the new bulbs aren't drawing enough wattage to trip the relay to make them blink. Not sure if this is the case, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

So due to the fact that the new turn signal bulbs are so tiny, I doubt I will be able to find a correct replacement that operates at the full 27watts.
I did find however this "possible" replacement here: Bulb Replacement

Though not Positive what the "50/15w" watt means.
If it means that it can operate between 50/15 watts, will this work as a solution for my dilemma?

Any help / suggestions would be great.

Thanks in advance!

 

not trying to be a smartass but use the search function. there are several helpful threads regarding turn signals. I have a set that i havent installed yet and will have to deal with this issue as well. from what ive read, u can get a different flasher relay for about 12 bucks at an auto parts store and that should do it.

 

Rather than messing with the bulbs it would probably just be easier to go to an auto parts store and pick up an electronic flasher rather than a mechanical flasher. I had the same issue on my bike when I put on aftermarket signals and this worked out just fine. They are less than $15 if I recall correctly.

 

Thanks TMHack
So I just need to go to the automotive store, and ask for a 12v 2 pin electric flasher relay?
Any other specs for this relay I should be looking for?

 

Sure, a flash rate you are happy with!
Seriously though, you have only to source a two pin 12V electronic unit and you should be just fine.

 

Just like Robert said. Source a 2 pin electronic flasher.

When I first had the issue I used a regular 12V mechanical flasher and the problem I had was that the flash rate would change with the RPM's of the motorcycle... not sure if that was because of the flasher style or the hacked wiring that came on the bike, but the electronic flasher fixed it.

Also the stock flasher(at least on my bike) was a 3 pin so you will have to look at some wiring diagrams or do some trial and error as to which 2 wires to use. It's been a while since I did mine so I'm of no help there.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

 

Some one posted the gouge on the pinout of our relay here a few weeks back, don't remember who it was. Check out the search function.

 

thanks guys for all your help.
I'll look for the pin out, and see what I can come up with.

 

Does replacing the stock flasher with aftermarket remove the self-canceling feature (where the blinkers turn off after a short time when at high RPM and after a long time when at low RPM [and never at idle])?

 

I thought the self-canceling feature was on a constant timer?

 

Mine are...oh wait you gots a 750 seca too

 

Okay, being a little dim about all this, let me recap to confirm a couple of things...

My 81 650Max is stock. I can go to the auto store and get an electronic flasher, replace the current, and everything will work? (turn, blink, cancel?)

Then (my next goal) I can replace stock turn signals w/LED models = brighter lights and lower amp draw?

thanks

 

Not sure if the canceling unit would still work or not. The one on my bike was long gone by the time I acquired it. But looking at the wiring diagram in the Clymer for my 550 the one wire that is left out of the circuit with the 2 prong flasher goes to the canceling unit. My clymer only goes up to the 600 models so I'm not sure if wiring would be the same on yours or not.

 

Well that was easy...
Bought the 2 prong 12v Tridon EL12 Electronic flasher Relay at Napa Auto, paid like 12.00 bucks. Went home and traced down the old relay unplugged it, and just plugged the new one in. It was real simple. If you look at the old relay, there is three prongs; L, B, and C I believe. Just line up the "L" slot on the new one, to where "L"on the old one was, plug it in, and that was it. Presto!

*Note*
(I have an '81 650 maxim and if anyone is wondering where the old relay unit is, "on mine" it was the first one in line directly behind the neck, under the tank and backbone, right above the the horn and the engine. Thought this might save somebody a little extra time)

After I got all the wiring done I took it out for a ride and noticed the self-cancelers were not working, where as they were before with the old relay.
TMHack, I think you have it right about the 3rd prong tying into the canceling unit.

Tridon makes a 3 prong relay as well (the EL13) but you may have to do some switching of wires and testing from everything I've read elsewhere on the forums.

Thanks everyone for all your help and input, what great site!

 

My idea of a solution is to simply add 8 Watts of "load" to each side, by adding a marker light, or a couple dash lights, to bring the total to 54 Watts, these extra lights can be hidden under the seat, or displayed.

Then you retain the self cancelling feature, and maybe fine tune the flash rate by adding another tiny bulb? for more load.

I have heard that the self cancelling works off distance AND time. Is it tied to the speedo, or the tach? I could figure this out myself by un-doing my speedo cable.

 

I think for me; it would take me more time to rig up extra lighting to increase the "load" than to unplug a relay and plug a new one back in it's place...

I guess the canceling feature is a luxury I can live without.
Mine was temperamental at best anyhow even with the original relay.

Plus the dummy dash light starring me in the face is a constant reminder that my blinker is still on. LOL.

 

That ↑ sums it up (very well) for me too. Think I'll listen a while longer in case our electric gurus know of a relay that includes the cancel circuit (cuz I deliberately stay close to stock when I can). If not, it's 2-pin "plug&play" for me.

 

Does anyone know if this is the location of the relay is for a 81 550 Maxim? If its not, does anyone know where it is?

 

on my 82 550 seca it was by the coils under the gas tank. More thank likely in the same spot on the Maxim's. The stock one is a small black box with a three prong connection.

 

Does the tank need to come off to get to it?

 

Mine does. But I also have a 650 Seca tank that is larger than the original... Tanks are pretty easy to get off of these bikes(one bolt under the seat and unhook the fuel and vacuum lines and its off). Best bet is to look up under the tank and see what you see. If you can reach it go for it.

 

Thanks!

 

You can also hook up a resistor in the turn signal circuit to take up the exta amperage needed (a tiny bit easier than running extra lighting)

 

The resister idea is a good one. I've seen some pre-packaged resistors on eBay for between eight and twelve bucks. But, I'm sure it's the saame kind of resister you could score at Radio Shack for short money without the shell casing and the pre-soldered ends.

 

Tylernt,
To date, no one has found an aftermarket flasher that will work with our self-canceling system. I'm working on this, we will find a way.
Time-To-Ride,
Yep, the instrument cluster has a small element inside of it that measures rotations (through magnetic pulses near as I can tell) of the speedo cable. The self canceling unit takes in this "distance" measurement and compares it to a timing circuit that is built into the unit. The lights should self extinguish after approximately 10 seconds or after traveling "164 yards". Both measurements must be present in the system before it will cancel the signal to the flasher.
There is a brief blurb on this system's operation in the Haynes, Page 236 Paragraph 23. Rather a complicated thing.

 

this did mine:
http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... html#94855

 

To be honest, I'm not sure I really want it any more. My blinker usually blinks for too long after turning a corner from a stop sign, or when changing lanes. Worse, if I'm going fast and signal well in advance of my turn, it self-cancels too soon and I have to activate it again. Perhaps my XS flasher only works on distance and not on time like the XJ system.

It's a clever system, 10 out of 10 for ingenuity, but it needs to be user-adjustable.

 

I'd agree 100%. I'd be all over it but I've got just enough spare time to drop in here between assignments. This will be a long term project and it may well be that someone else will figure out a fix (I'd like the fame and fortune for myself but just don't have the time for it right now).

 

Somewhat old post, I know, but does anyone know how the interaction between the cancelling unit and the flasher relay works? As in, how does the canceling unit "tell" the flasher relay to stop? I'd be happy to find a way to make this thing work if i knew a little more about it. Anyone have schematics of these devices?

 

Self-cancelling feature DOES depend on the correct relay. It works off time and/or time moving. There is a reedswitch in the speedo so it knows whether the bike is rolling, there's no way it knows how fast or how far, just that it's moving or not. THAT (moving or not) affects when it cancels. Clever but simple, won't work with aftermarket relay to the best of my knowledge.

 

Bluepotpie; good question. It's either gotta drop it (the "third wire") to ground or just open the circuit, but which? I'm gonna see what I can figure out with the factory book, it would be WAY COOL if we could figure out how to ADJUST it.

 

EASE EASE EASE EASE EASE EASE IS THE MAN FOR TURN SIGNAL PROBLEMS AND RELAY REPLACEMENT

 

It's been awhile since I messed with the turn signal relay, but, if memory serves, the way it works is just like a standard electronic two-pin flasher relay which is why you can use a standard flasher in its place. The big difference, of course, is that our OE unit has the third pin coming from the canceler unit. The canceler unit sends a very low current 12 volt signal to the flasher relay when it needs to suspend flasher function. This occurs when you travel a certain distance and a certain time limit has expired. This 12 volt signal travels into the relay and follows a wire that is wrapped around the electromagnet. This wire is wrapped first around the electromagnet's core using a very fine wire. Then, a heavier wire is wrapped over it which is used by the turn signal flasher tank circuit. When the canceler sends its signal up this wire, it effectively saturates the core of the electromagnet preventing it from further operation. To reset the canceler, you have to select a new direction to turn or shut the power off.

 

How low of a current? What i'm getting at is can I just put a normally closed 12VDC relay before the flasher and and activate the coil with the 12vdc signal from the canceler?

 

Nope. Tried that. We're talking milliamps.

I did find one relay at Rat Shack that would latch. Hold on and I'll see if I can find the link for it...

Here it is:



12VDC/125VAC 10A SPDT Mini Relay
Model: 275-248
Catalog #: 275-2

The problem I ran into is that this relay isn't rated for outdoor use. You would have to pot it somehow to keep water out. I've come up with a much better (and much simpler) solution. Chacal and I are working on it right now.

 

Ok, i've got a place to shield to from the weather, that's not a problem. I just want something to work for now. When you and Len get the electronic flasher to work with the canceler as you intend, I'll be waiting in line to buy one.

 

anyone know how many pulses from the reed switch is 150 meters? i'm looking to test this without driving it.

 

It's about a tenth of a mile. I propped the front wheel up and spun it by hand.

 

good idea. thanks. i'll test tomorrow.

 

ok so after reading this and trying the el13 and el12 flashers I am still not getting results. Also another issue that I am pretty sure I know how to solve but i'd like a 2nd opinion.

My bike is a 1983 XJ750MK and I replaced the stalk turn signals for some 12 volt LED lights thinking that since they were for 12 volt systems they should work. As they did along with I installed an LED taillight/brake. That is working awesome. I got rid of the rear fender and fabricated a oval shaped bracket to accommodate this light and its worked great.

As far as the turn signals go they are small 3 led lights which i have installed to replace each turn signal. I knew the leds would not work without some other things being done and I assumed i could go the resistor route which i am not a big fan of. resistors eat power and create heat. So i got another flasher to try and in fact both flashers listed in this thread and i am not having any success.

Also as noted before i believe i need some diodes to control the back flow of power from one side of the turn signal system to the other through the console. My bike has the turn signal indicator amongst the oil light high bean light and neutral light. So when everything is plugged in behind the head light the orange turn signal signal light does not light up, but both sides of the turn signal system turn on with the actual switch being right or left.

So when i unplug the harness for the warning lights the sides do work individually however they will not flash. Any ideas of how to proceed? Or at least recommendations would be appreciated. I am not concerned wit the self cancel feature because mine always hung up anyway.

Thanks

 

from what I have read about LED turn signals you need a load equalizer to make them work. without it they will both come on.

 

I documented this here: http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14068.html

 

Hey thanks for the responses. I actually released the pins from the harness that plugs into the "dash" harness if you will and now they are two seperate circuits. And they now come on separately. I am thinking i will just install diodes inline to prevent the power from being sent both directions. anyway, that light i almost don't care about. what i do care about is getting the lights to blink like turn signals.

I appreciate your documentation however I have actually read your article about 10 times and i feel like i have followed it to no avail. Perhaps i missed something. I also found out tonight using a power probe (glorified test light with ability to supply power or ground and read voltage, show continuity etc.) i am only showing 10.2 volts going into the turn signal relay. Solid brown wire. even lower voltage going into it with the yellow with green but to my understanding that is correct. I feel like I have something weird going on with the other wire.

I have the lights coming on in two separate circuits but still no blinking. If I supply 12 volts to the flasher directly with ground on the other side it flashes the power probe like it should. If closes and breaks the circuit. It is a new flasher (electronic) but i just thought i would test it to make sure.

At this point i don't know where to look. I don't completely understand the way the system works. I am an automotive tech and new to working on bikes. So I understand 12 volt electricity but I haven't quite come to terms with what is going on here. I am going to trace this wire and see why only 10.2 volts when the battery is sitting at 12.3. Short to ground somewhere maybe?

Again any assistance or direction would be helpful. Thanks
Mike

 

Low voltage is not likely to be from a short somewhere, as, good contacts and wiring, combined with a short equals blown fuses or burning wires.

Low voltage in this case is indicative of a bad contact somewhere along the way. Could be the classic stock electrical box problems (bad fuse clips), could be a bad plug contact somewhere, or it could be a nearly worn-out ignition switch.

I just looked at the layout for you bike, though, and I think the problem IS the turn signal indicator in the dash. On my bike there are two turn signal indicators in the instrument cluster, and they are run in parallel with the turn signals themselves. In your bike there is one indicator lamp which is wired BETWEEN the two flasher "hot" lines (Dark Green and Dark Brown). If you remove that indicator lamp, I'll bet your turn signals work correctly.

A longer-term fix would be to rewire this indicator lamp to run from a diode-summed signal from the two wires, with ground on the other side.

Cheers,
Paul

 

I gotta agree with paul on this one. I bet it'll work after you re-wire it with the diodes.

 

My problem is no longer side to side operation. I disconnected the bulb from the loop by un-clipping the wires from the harness connector and I am thinking about using two separate bulbs somewhere else.

my issue is the thing will not blink with the electronic flasher. I believe it is from low voltage. Im going to trace the wire and ill let you know what i find. It already has its own new fuse so thats an easy place to start from. Forward from there and back from there.

Any other ideas why no blinking could occur?

Mike

 

Yes. If you have the wires to the flasher reversed. These two pin flashers require supply on one wire and load on the other. On the one I got from SuperBrightLEDs, the supply wire is gray and the load wire is black.

 

Since my bike has the auto cancel i have three wires. Y/G, Br/W and Br. When I use a new electronic flasher 3 prong. I get nothing. When I use the factory one I get lights but no blinking and when I use the two prong, once again I get lights but no blinking.

I have tried several combinations by jumping the wires with the pines for load and supply and I get results like still no blinking or signal lights but dim and still no blinking.

I suppose these leds are still just not drawing enough. Although I don't want to go the resistor route, I might just have to until I figure out what is going on. What resistor would be recommended. I have some 12 volt resistors but I believe they draw to many amps. Anyone have a specific model or part resistor they have found to work?

Also, now after cleaning some corrosion and taking care of the wiring I get a nice healthy 12 volt signal from the wires at the flasher.

Thanks again
Mike

 

Read this article: http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14068.html

 

this post provides some very useful information however, I have been through it about 20 times now and it is not solving my issues. I appreciate your efforts.

I believe there is something else going on. I just havent figured it out yet.