Broken intake boot bolts :(

Well I finally decided I would paint my motor and do it right. So I went to NAPA and got some black and silver ceramic heat resistant (500 deg) paint and some scotch brite pads. Got home and took some old 2x4's and made a temporary engine stand so I could easily get to all parts of the motor during the prepping.


It was kind of a circus with my wife helping me get the engine mounted but we 'got 'er dun' and I started the long tedious cleaning process. After getting about 1/4 of the engine cleaned I thought "I should probably take off the intake boots too :roll: . Bolt #1 comes loose. Bolt#2 I can't budge, I'll come back to that one. Bolt#3 breaks off :x Bolt#4 breaks off :evil: I go to the boot at the other end...both bolts come out Bolts 7 and 8 break :twisted: ...and number 2 breaks as well!! Frzzin frazzn mmrrfrggin$$#*( 5 out of 8 bolts are now at various stages of protrudence ranging from 1/4" stubs to flush.
Which one of you guys suggested removing the boots to paint the engine!!?!? :evil: (LOL j/k)
Wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't also suffered 3 gouges, two slashes and a cut in the process...grrrrr!! :evil:

Has anybody had good results using and easy-out in this situation?!?! I've never used them (easy-outs) before so what the best practice as far a hole size drilled into the screw....Should I let some penetrating oil sit on it over night??

 

Old enough to know better? :roll:
First, you need to stop and do some research.
#1- - buy some Kroil. online. Fitz has the link.
Any stud protruding far enough to get a Vice-Grip on may come out with the torch and wax method.
Before using an Easy-Out on the flush studs, you should pre-drill one tiny hole thru the threads, and let the Kroil soak in to all the threads.

To perfectly preserve the threads and the head, you would take it to a machine shop that has the electric "stud eliminator" machine.
Get out your wallet. . .

Hey guys, since the engine is out, he doesn't have to remove the head, does he?

 

Your engine stand looks great!

If it were me I would take one and ONLY ONE stab at removing any broken studs that do NOT require drilling the old stud out.

For me it has always been a long road to nowhere when I start drilling steel studs firmly embedded in aluminum! Nowhere except that is to the machine shop!

Kroil is pure 'awesome in a can'. Get some and you will always have a spare can on the shelf so you can't run out. The wax idea certainly has some merit but I don't think that I personally would ever drill a Kroil access hole along the threads or drill any hole along the longitudinal axis of a stuck stud.

Call around to area machine shops, get a good price, drop the engine off, go to lunch and come back to a stud free engine!

Good luck!

Loren

 

when i painted mine 7 of 8 came out i tried everything including drilling into the cavity behind the bolt to get the Kroil in there, that part worked but it didn't come loose, then i gave up and left it there
i beat a hand impact driver till i thought i would knock the head off the cylinders, that's the first bolt that beat my impact driver
at this point my advice to you is bite the bullet and take it to a machine shop

 

I'll third the trip to the machine shop.
Nothing worse to see is the look on the machinists face when you bring him a head with an EZ out broken off in a stud thats drilled off center and below flush from the gasket surface.


MN

 

buy lots of beer, and a snap-on bolt extraction kit. it has guides that slide over the remaining stud to keep the drill straight, and straight splined extractors.

also, penetrating oil and HEAT help.

 

I like that engine stand, last time I saw a test bed like that, was for the RB2 11.

 

One way of getting those bolts out is welding a new nut on to the broken bolt. I use my MIG for this, with the heat setting way up. Let the bolt cool a while before applying force, it probably will break the first few times, but at the the end the bolt usually comes out. Use copper sheat to protect sensitive aluminium surfaces from the welding.

/H

 

These things work awesome too.


Some heat from a blow torch before trying to get it out will definately help.
Or welding a nut to it can also be a very effective way. Since the heat of the weld helps to break loose the bond between stud and head.


grz Thijs

 

hmmm...not the kind of replies I was hoping for... :cry:
seeing as the budget for this bike has evaporated with my layoff since December, I don't think a paying some one to do the work is an option at this point. It would seem to me that if KROIL is the miracle worker I've read it is why couldn't I:
1)drill a small hole through the center of the stud.
2)make a small dam around the stud and flood it with kroil.
3)let it set a day or so
4)Use an ez-out or extractor to remove the stud
I'm trying to figure out what a machine shop could do that I can't. I could lay the motor on my CNC table and indicate the flange area flat. Drill the studs out and install a helicoil if I need to....what else would a machine shop do other than that?? Not trying to be a smart a@@...just trying to

 

thats right i forgot you have a bridgeport, well then you are the machine shop
but i would forget the ez outs if one breaks then your buying carbide end mills

 

I'm looking at his heavy a@@ motor that I'm getting tired of lugging around and I'm wondering....Since I have a previously purchased head gasket sitting here, how much work/trouble is it removing the head? My gut tells me I probably should replace that gasket anyways as there was a lot of oil in the area when I got the bike...


I don't have a manual or the CD (one of those round-to-it things) but I have read that it's easiest to remove the cams, zip tie the gears to the chain and keep a wire or string on the chain so you can keep it from falling in the motor and to fish it through the head at reinstall....
I am making more work for myself?!? Is this like walking blindfolded in a minefield without a manual?!? I got plenty of time to do the work...just a shortage of cash...

 

Are you talking about a sink EDM (electronic discharge machine)? we have one in the metallic's lab at school, they work really well for removing broken taps from material as well.

 

PM concerning headgasket replacement.

I would replace the headgasket now that the engine is out of the frame, and the base gasket too. Isn't that much more work, and you can check your pistons and rings for wear and tear.


grz Thijs

 

The likelihood that the Base Gasket needing replacement is almost Nil.

IF ... You are going to Restore that Engine ... removing the Head and having a Machine Shop remove ALL the Fasteners and Re-Tap the Holes is the way to go.

Since it involves REMOVING the HEAD ... you service the Head.
Valve Job with Seal
De-coke
Remove the Manifold Fasteners.
The Modern Machine Shop will "Burn-Out" the steel fastener fragments and be able to Re-tap the Aluminum Head.

IF only ONE Cap Bolt is seized ... the trouble it presents is worth having the Machine Shop do the work every time.

A truly SEIZED Cap Screw is never coming out.
Soaking it with David Copperfield Juice will do nothing.

 

A truly SEIZED Cap Screw is never coming out.
Soaking it with David Copperfield Juice will do nothing

+1

 

Kroil is "David Blane" juice !!

David Blane could make David Copperfield disappear.

 

Weld a nut on the end. Use heat and vibration if possible to help extract after you get the nut on. Don't use an easy-out!! They are f***ing useless pieces of shit. Every time I've ever seen an easy out used, it has broken and made the job harder.

 

COVER ME BOYS.....I'M GOIN' IN!!!!!

I let it soak in kroil overnight....nuthin'
I tried the torch and wax trick.... nuthin'
Tried heating around the stud....nuthin'
:cry:
So there I sat, frustrated as h311. Called a machine shop and sent him some pics. He's going to get back with a quote. Well it's a boat anchor as it sits so I figured I might as well get an education and go a little deeper. I didn't feel comfortable with the amount of oil on the front of the motor, and I figured machining the stud out would be easier (and cheaper?) with the head off the motor. So I got some info on the right way to remove the head and within 90minutes I had the head off. Well at least that went well.

I know conventional thinking is to have the head gone through while it's off, which I would love to do but just can't afford it. What things can I do myself to clean some of the carbon off the head and the pistons? What things should I not do??

I did notice some scoring on the cams where the end cam shaft caps are, other than that everything looks pretty good....

 

You can de-coke the head & piston tops & lap the valves, you are in for a new head gasket & a bunch of shims, anyway.

 

fixing a broken intake boot bolt is very easy ive done it before, and I did it with motor still in the frame! Just drill out the screw, tap it with the same size. and install new bolt. You dont even have to take the screw out just drill it.

 

Have you tried heat and a bolt out tool from Craftsman? THey will grab onto any bolt round is no problem. But steel into aluminum is your main enemy here. Welding a nut on them will get more heat into the bolt then a torch and rather quickly too. You could def set the head up on your cnc tabke give it a go. If they don't come out a good quality drill bit and tap as mentioned will take care of you. Remember don't go full bore when drilling and keep the bit lubed to keep the heat down.

 

Thanks 85max...and everyone else with ideas....
the majority of the studs broke off almost flush with the intake
Got tired of waiting for the machine shop to get back to me so I got a metric tap, my air drill and bits and started drilling...so far I've got two done and three to go.
For sake of the forum, here's my method:
I took one of the intake boots that needs replacing and got a drill that just fits into the bolt hole of the boot. I put the boot up to the head in location as close as possible,then I use the boot bolt hole as a guide to get a small dimple on the center of the stud. Then I double and triple check to get to the center of the stud with a center punch, and give it a whack once I'm satisfied.
I've been starting with a small .08 bit, then a .125, then a left hand .154 (in the hopes it might screw the stud out) If it doesn't then I go to a .168 then finish with a .196 which puts me at the right size for an M6x1 tap. I've been keeping things lubricated with some "Marvels Mystery Oil". So far so good...

 

Nice process Mad_B, sounds perfect. Best of luck on those three you have left.

 

Well she' fightin' me at every turn.... # 3 the .125 drill bit broke leaving about .100 of the tip inside. I continued the process and by the time the tap reached the broken bit, it had worked itself loose enough that I could extract it with a magentized awl. # 4 broke the tap with just enough sticking out that I could unscrew it with some vise grips... phew... It's not like I'm horsing this tap through either, must have been too cheap of a tap

Once I get this done I plan on using a brass brush w/WD40 to decoke the head, being very careful/cautious around the valves. Once that is done, what is the best solvent to use to flush everything good so I know there's nothing left that can get to and score the cylinder walls?? The odometer on the bike reads 15k so I'm hoping I don't have to mess with lapping the valves. I plan on doing a seal test on the valves by pouring ?(what kind)? solvent into the ports and see if there's any leakage.

Also I want to decoke the piston heads. I plan on laying the motor down so the process will flow out of the cylinder and not down around the rings. Two of the cylinders are near TDC but the other two are at the bottom of their stroke. Can I rotate the motor to bring these to the top and then reverse the rotation to get them back to the bottom?? Sorry for all the (DUH) questions, but this is as deep as I have ever ventured into an engine before and I figure it's easier (and cheaper) to ask a dumb question than it is to make a dumb mistake Thanks guys!

 

yup take off the left crank cover and use a 19mm wrench to turn over the crank. You will want to keep tension on the cam chain so it does not ball up in the lower end. Be careful not to crash into the ignition pickups while turning the crank.

 

I think if you use paint thinner or gasoline, you will find that all valves leak a little, on almost any motor- - it's not that kind of a seal.

Lapping is easy and fun- - using the spring compressor and not firing a keeper to the moon is the tricky part.

 

SUCCESS!!! All studs are gone and all holes tapped
woohooo!!!

Cool on rotating the crank, Thanks 85Max!!

As I sat on the deck contemplating decoking the head I had a thought...has anyone ever tried soda blasting the carbon off?? That way I could clean around the valves without being worried about messing up the seal between the valve and seat....whaddya think guys? Have I been sniffing too many gas fumes?!?

 

Nice feeling, isn't it, I have just retapped mine (project900) putting s/s bolts back in with anti sieze.
Yes to the soda blastin, do all the ports as well, no problem.

 

Yep, been there, done that, tried drilling and went to the machine shop. Actually I was lucky and got one of the shop teachers at a local vocational school to do it with his students. Charged much less than a commercial shop. Call around to some local auto tech or vocational schools and see what they say. It definitely makes an interesting lesson in how NOT to try and remove intake boot studs!

 

soda blasting is a great idea, it won't hurt your heads, valves. etc.