Neutral light from starter diagnosis - 2 problems

Here is an interesting question for all the XJ heavies. I have been trying to trace why the starter won't roll on demand. This is an ongoing issue since I got the bike 3 years ago. After an afternoon with the service manual and a meter, I think it comes down to the starter relay next to the battery. However, since one is not readily available, I put her back together and can live with the occasional bump start. One of the Yamaha Old Hands at the 2009 Bike Blessing said "typical Yamaha starters", but I find this hard to believe.

This is not a battery issue - I crammed a 20A gel battery in there and there is more power than needed. This issue persists with a large car battery and cables, so it seems to not be connections or battery. Any random time the starter button is hit, the starter simply won't turn. It is about a 50/50 proposition today, getting worse by the week. When it does turn, the engine fires up immediately. One suggestion over the winter was to place an all-weather switch between the battery and starter to make a short direct path, but this didn't appear to be the best option.

However since putting it back together, when the clutch is pulled, the neutral light comes on. Sure this is not a big safety issue, but it is certainly distracting. Did I fry a relay or something as I was testing?

Any help on either issue would be appreciated.

 

The "starter relay" next to the battery is called the starter solenoid. Chacal has them, so they ARE available. You don't mention which bike you have, but the ones he has fit all XJ's. People have also had good luck retrofitting lawnmower solenoids.

Testing the solenoid is as follows:

1. Try shorting the heavy terminals of the solenoid with a screwdriver you don't care too much about. If this reliably runs the starter, then the starter is OK. If it doesn't, then look into new starter brushes, cleaning the starter out, etc.

2. If the starter was OK from step 1, try removing both smaller terminals from the solenoid and jumpering +12V and ground to them. If this reliably runs the starter, then then solenoid is OK, and the problem's somewhere in your safety circuitry, starter switch, or ignition switch.

 

SQL, I truly appreciate the advice, which will get a trial this weekend. The manuals call this a relay even though it reminded me of a Ford solenoid that sits on a fender well instead of on the starter like a GM. Should have figured that the diagnosis process would be as simple.

Anyone have any ideas why the Neutral light comes on when the clutch lever is pulled?

 

Could be wired wrong, could be a bad diode. Which bike?

 

The bike is my avatar - xj650j - and the issue started after I went through the system with a meter checking relays, etc. I have not changed any parts or changed any wiring. Weird.

 

I too have had starting issues, from the starter just needing brushes (it is a 28 year old starter) to a bad connection from my starter button to the fuse box that was installed by the PO. Is there a stock fuse box in it? If not maybe chase down the connections when a new box was put in.

 

Nice try tennsouthernbelle, but the fuses were history long ago and the starter button tests out fine.

 

Sounds like a classic case of the solenoid going bad - mine did the same thing. Paul's test will tell you for sure.

neutral light has to be the diode block as Carl said or a short - clutch switch and neutral switch do have the diode block in common.

 

Appreciate all the advice fellows. I shall try these tests this weekend. Just to be clear, "jumpering the small terminals" of the solenoid means what exactly? Last thing i need to do is fry something else. Electricals usually mystify me, so specifics are appreciated!

 

Typical Yamaha Starter.
Could be.

The Yamaha Starter Brushes are BIG.
They wear-down and make a lot of dust.
The dust gathers all-over the Starter's Electrical end. Once enough CARBON DUST collects in the Armature ... the Starter gets "Intermittent"
Not long after ... it quits.

Remove the Starter.
Undo the two Long Screws and pull the Electrical End out a little bit.
Look in.
If there's black carbon dust all over the place ... douche it out.

Use a whole Bottle of Isopropyl Alcohol.
Trigger-pull Squirt Bottle.
Spray the whole Electrical end, Armature, Brushes, Casting until whats coming out is as clean as what's getting sprayed on.

 

I, too, had a similar problem. Thought I had it nailed down to a bad solenoid. Replaced it and all was well... for a week. And then nothing. Hit the starter button and nothing. Arggh!!! Right?

So, I tore my tank off and looked at the starter safety relay. After some testing, prodding, and poking, it turned out to be a loose connection at the relay's connecter. I could hold the starter button in and twist the starter safety relay pigtail and the bike would start. I removed the relay and bent the metal tangs out slightly so they would make good connections in the pigtail again. I haven't had a problem since.

 

It means directly connecting, with two lengths of wire, one to ground, and the other to +12V. Connect one side first, then touch the other side to its terminal.

 

Again, thank you all. Rick, this clean out was done with the starter last year, although it could be done again when I replace the generator gasket as it is not much more work. Brushes were OK but worn, so maybe there is another weak spot. Don, I tested the relay under the seat and it does check to spec and seems to fit OK. I will give the wiggle test a try. Promise to keep my patience handy and dynamite in a far away place.

 

Psteele, regarding your neutral light question:

Here's a diagram of the starter circuit on an XJ650J.

If the neutral light comes on when the clutch lever is pulled, I would say you have a shorted diode in your diode pack - the one that goes between the clutch switch and the neutral switch on the diagram.

The switches act like an "OR" gate, i.e. either the clutch switch OR the neutral switch will allow the safety relay to engage thus allowing the starter button to energize the starter relay. The diode is there to prevent exactly what you describe - the clutch switch illuminating the neutral lamp.

Incidentally, the diode right above that one is used as a lamp test to illuminate the oil indicator light when the starter button is pressed. Either the starter button OR the oil level switch will light the oil indicator. The diode there prevents the oil level switch from energizing the starter which wouldn't be a good thing.

Geez, I hope I don't sound too technical or condescending.

 

Technical or condescending - geez gitbox, hardly! Great information, just hope I can get it fixed properly. Starting issue #1, light after. Again, thanks to all you XJ-perts. My weekend sounds busy.

 

OK Guys, I tried the suggestions above. Took the time to open, clean and close as many connections as could be reached. Wiggled all the pigtails while holding starter button. Jumped the big terminals with a screwdriver and this ran the starter every time. Could not disconnect the smaller ones as they seem to be factory soldered.

The solenoid seems to click better, but now while the bike starts reliably on a bump, will not turn the starter at all on its own.

Vewy, vewy fwustwating.

 

Just for the sake of clarification, were you able to disconnect the starter solenoid's pigtail, the one with the red and blue wires?

 

Yes I was and it never crossed my mind to jumper that part that way. Is that what you're driving at Don? Sounds like a good way to do it, but with my fear of frying something, I await your reply.

While waiting, I checked out your How To on the starter circuit - looks like I need to hang around this site more often, as I did not know it was there. GREAT how-to, so let me deal with that and get back to this topic in the next few hours.

Thanks for the superb how-to! Great photos and information.

 

We're a Full Service Agency.
Doctors who specialize in all areas.

You should have SPUN the Starter when it was off the Bike.
A Battery Charger.
Negative to the Case.
HOT Lead touch the Pigtail Post.

See of hitting the Motor with 12 Volts makes it go.

 

Well, after getting to the bike today, here is what I have found. First, the starter spins every time using the screwdriver between the posts trick. Jumping the pigtail results in a clunk in the solenoid and that's all. So, it sounds like I need a solenoid, correct?

 

You can monkey with the one you got.
Some guys are able to resurrect them.

Guys like me put-on one that works.
New; used.
It don't matter.

Then, you take the old one in your left hand.
Toss it out in front of you at about eye-level.
Smack it with a Baseball Bat.
They don't go far but it feels good.

 

Best advice yet, Rick. Solenoid, bat, beer...I think I hear a good old Nova Scotia kitchen party about to start.

 

"It's a line-drive to deep center field..."

 

In praise of Len and the crew at XJ Forever:

Never have I had a repair as simple and as simply satisfying as this one. Not only did the solenoid arrive at my door this morning at 11am, less than 7 calendar days from ship date, but the fit was perfect and the operation flawless. How I managed to live with the increasing frustration of a deteriorating solenoid is beyond me. Len's aftermarket part performs better than expected and it seems the starter doesn't even turn one revolution and the bike starts immediately.

Now I can dial back my envious looks at owners of new bikes that start right up because my old Maxim starts at least as quickly if not better.

What makes this all so surprising is that it all took less than 5 business days to ship from Atlanta to Nova Scotia - no red tape, no customs, no hassle at all.

Let that be a lesson to this old fart - don't live with a problem. Fix it and stop making the excuse that your bike is old and cranky just like you! It can be fixed. Total time from start of seat removal to riding down the street - 17 minutes. Shazam!

Thanks XJ Bikes.
Thanks XJ Forever.
Thanks Len, great service, as promised!

 

Hello wisers,

I am experiencing same problem, NO NEUTRAL light and when start button pressed lights up OIL light. from reading this thread am guessing the oil switch is malfunctioning hence triggering the starter relay Not making the bike to start. Its 1985 MAXIM X 750. If someone could point me where this oil switch is..would be the way to go i gues..thankx

 

littlegiant, when you press the starter button, the oil light is supposed to come on as there is no oil pressure yet. Your neutral light not coming on is likely due to one of two issues - diode block (unlikely) or neutral safety switch malfunction (likely). New switch should solve your issue immediately.

 

Thanks psteele, strange..my 1986 XJ700S aircooled maxim never has oil light on when starting..so i thought that not normal for my Maxim X 1985 to do that.

 

If the battery and the starter were connected the solenoid when you did that, the starter should have spun. Has somebody load tested the battery? I don't mean just checking it with a volt meter, load testing it requires another tester. anyplace that sells batteries will have one and they can be bought for around thirty bucks. Batteries can be intermittent, but its not real common. Testing a battery with just a voltmeter is near useless.

Intermittent problems can be VERY frustrating and having multiple problems makes it worse. I'm going through similar issues with mine now.

I'd ignore the clutch switch light for now and concentrate on getting the starter turning first.

What I'm going to relate comes from my knowledge of the 650 and from the drawing that was posted earlier. There are differences, but they're very similar.

For the starter to engage, the ignition switch and engine kill switch have to be on and the starter button has to be good. We know that all of those things are happening, because the oil light comes on when you push the button and it wouldn't if any of those things was bad.

Next the ignition relay has to close and that can happen a couple of ways. If the engine is in neutral it will get a ground through the switch. Since we seem to have a problem with that circuit lets just ignore it and use the other method which is to both pull the clutch in and have the side stand switch up. The drawing that was posted doesn't show a side stand switch, but I'm assuming its there. This relay is seriously overworked. Every time you pull the clutch lever with the side stand up it operates. That means every time you shift it cycles. Not great engineering

When the ignition relay closes, it sends power to the "pigtail" on your solenoid. You should be able to measure voltage on the R/W wire with the starter button pushed. That's going to be hard to do while holding the bike up with the clutch in, so a helper might be in order. If there's no voltage there the relay didn't close.

The fact that it will bump start gets it down to one of three things. The battery, the solenoid and the ignition relay. You've already replaced the solenoid. Edit: It could also be a starter or a wiring problem. You indicated that every time you jump the big terminals on the solenoid that the starter spins so that seems to be eliminated leaving the battery, relay and wiring. If the starter turns the engine strongly sometimes, the battery is possible but unlikely.

The neutral light issue can be handled separately.

Good luck,
Mike

EDIT: added wire color