Float level frustration

First of all, I want to say that I read, reread, studied, and asked questions about the float level adjustment procedure prior to beginning. This includes my Clymer manual, chacal's tutorial, and other sources. This is my first time and I'm attempting to do this off the bike. I'm using my Workmate bench to hold the carbs solidly in place and level.

When I did a dry measurement by holding the carbs at an angle so the tangs just touched but didn't put any pressure on the needle spring, all the carbs measured almost exactly the same from the top (bottom) of the float to to the edge of the bowl.

On my first test with fuel, carbs 1&2 were right on the money. Carb 3 was about 1mm low out of spec. On carb 4, fuel basically ran out of the air intake then stopped, but the level was very high when measured.

Using chacal's instructions...

"You would bend this tang down (away from the needle) to raise the float height (and thus raise the fuel level in the bowl), or you would bend this tang upward (towards the needle) to lower float height (and this will lower the fuel level in the bowl)."

...my first adjustment to carb 3 had the opposite effect described above and actually lowered the level further - by at least a half an inch! The adjustment to carb 4 worked as expected and, although fuel didn't spill out of the air intake this time, it didn't lower it enough.

Attempts 2 & 3 generally seemed to have the opposite effect I want. I gave up when I started test #4 and all of sudden fuel ran out of the air intake on carb 1, (which I hadn't touched).

One item to mention: Some of the black coating seems to have come off the #4 carb float. I may have gotten some carb spray on it accidentally. Not sure if that's a problem or not.

I have NO clue what is going on. Is it possible that there's something wrong with the needles or seats from the kits I bought? Could I be bending the tangs improperly somehow? After working on this for 3+ hours, I'm lost.

 

How tight do the seats fit into the carb bodies? Are you useing the clear tube on the drain stub to see the float levels?

How much pressure are you useing to fill the carbs? IV bottle or?

MN

 

Remember that up=down if the carbs are inverted, as they are on my bench when I take the float bowls off. The "away from" and "towards" the needle makes it clear which orientation Chacal's carbs are in... same as on the bike.

I had fuel run out all over when a float needle jammed... usually the floats are springy when inverted (bounce on the needle spring) but this one went "thunk". Bad news there. Hope it's not that, but Chacal sells float needles too.

 

Pretty tight, I guess. The little bracket (can't remember the name of this) that holds them in place pushed them down into position when I tightened the screw.

Yes.

I've got a test tank salvaged from a snow blower but I have it hung up about three feet above the bench where the carbs are.

MN[/quote]

 

Although I think saying "away from the needle" takes the up/down, top/bottom orientation out of play, doesn't it? To be clear, though, when I have the bowls off and am working on the carbs upside down, I'm bending the tang upward (toward the sky) when I'm bending it away from the needle.

I bought these from him as part of the rebuild kits. The springs are operating on both of these needles.

 

It does. Sounds like that's not the problem.


How do the float pins seem to be working? Nice and smooth, no binding on the float motion? Pins are straight, i.e. you can rotate them and the float still moves nicely?

 

You did all the measurements after getting one carb into spec, I trust.

Sounds like the needle got stuck.

Right. As mentioned in his instructions (I'm going over them, adding pictures and rewriting some of the text), by bending the tang downwards you're widening the gap between the top of the needle and the seat. This means fuel has more time to pour like a raging torrent into the bowl before the floats lift the needle all the way into the seat to cut off the flow. Bending the tang upwards makes the gap smaller, thus the needle doesn't have to rise as far.

("Like a raging torrent". Where's my Pulitzer, dammit?)

Don't know what happened with the #3 carb, but that doesn't sound quite right.

Again, sounds like the float needle got hung up. Whacking the bowl usually takes care of that in short order.

I don't know either, but you could always see if there's a hole in the float which would let it fill up with fuel.

 

The Floats are Solid.
They don't fill-up.
Carb Cleaner don't hurt them.

Polish the Inside Diameters of the Float Valve Seats.
Use a good Polishing Agent.
Tape 2 or 3 Q-Tips together and shine-'em-up good.

 

So you're thinking the float valves/needles may be hanging up a little? Are those seats solid brass or are they plated?

I've got No7 rubbing compound and Mother's Billet polish. I'll have to remove the floats, right? Should I also remove the seats for easier and more thorough clean up?

 

I found that I had to fill the bowls slowly when filling them the first time, otherwise I run into similar issues and the valve needle wont close.

When I prime them, I have a tube attached to view the level. I shut off the prime when the level is just shy of my set height. Then I either run my bike or ease more fuel in very slowly.

Don't know why this happens.

 

Weird. The manual says to run the bike first but I don't have mine running yet. I don't know what that changes in the carbs but it may somehow eliminate this problem??? I'll try watching the tube next time and use your method of going slowly from there. Thanks.

 

OK, removed and polished the inside of the seats as per Rick's instructions. Adjusted tangs some more. Floats move smoothly on the pins, to answer an earlier question.

Number 3 carb is now within spec. Number 4 carb needle valve is not operating at all, as far as I can tell. At least fuel pours out of site tube freely regardless of how high I hold it.

I have several old floats, pins, needles, and seats that I could try if that seems like a logical next step.

 

float hinge pins straight and the floats move freely on them?

 

Yes. I just took out the #4 carb bowl parts again and inspected them very closely. The spring on the needle operates as expected and the needle itself slides easily in the seat. The float turns smoothly on the pin. There is nothing misshapen as far as I can tell such as the conical end of the needle.

I've worked on this for three more hours this morning and my knees are killing me. I've also lost the will to live...

 

the tab that pushes the valve up should be flat (only bent where it meets the main part)
the tab should also be smooth so the little pin can't hangup on a nick
the keeper thing that goes on the valve and over the tab is free

 

It's not, at least not anymore. How are you supposed to bend that thing and keep it flat? What kind of tool can both grab it and bend it, given that the space around it is so small?

This could also be an issue.

Meaning that it should be able to slide freely on the tang?

 

There were some nicks on the tang of the #4 carb float, so I spent much of the last hour getting it smooth by rubbing it with a little strip of 360 grit sandpaper wrapped over the end of a tiny flat blade screwdriver. Then I bent the tang up (away from the needle - just the opposite of what the instructions say to do to reduce the fuel level) so that it was basically flat again. That seemed to work. Thanks, Polock.

Now the fuel level is just a hair high. It's essentially even with the top edge of the float bowl. If someone can describe for me how to bend the tang so that, A) I don't score the top of it again, and B) I'm still able to keep it flat, I would sure appreciate it. Now that I'm this close after all the hours I've spent on this, I REALLY don't want to screw it up again!

Thanks for all of the help everyone has offered so far.

 

here ya go, as to how to bend it...........very carefully :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

...there's part of what's getting you confused. If the carbs were upright, like the instructions imply, then you would have been bending the tang downward. Think of "up" as pointing in the direction of the hats. (Thanks for pointing that out. I must remember to add that to the writeup.)

In any event, you obviously need to bend that tang a wee bit more in the same direction as the last time. Just a hair, mind -- fractions of a millimeter count. Might I suggest either a small flat blade screwdriver or a set of smooth needlenose, if you aren't using one of those already?

 

Thanks again, Polock. I guess I might have misunderstood what you meant by keeping the tang "flat." I thought you meant flat as in parallel to the rest of the bracket attached to the float itself. In your photo, the tang is basically flat as it contacts the needle spring, but it's bent at a different angle compared to the bracket below it.

That's how I've been bending them. I guess I'll just give it another try but I'm going to use a little piece of rubber or something between the screwdriver and the tang to keep from scratching it again.

 

Thanks for your response. Actually, I was always bending it in the correct direction. I read it, reread it, came back, double checked, and made absolutely sure. The problem was some combination of having bent it too far (that's why I had to bend it in the opposite direction - as a correction) and the nicks I guess I must have put in the surface of the tang, (with a small flat blade screwdriver).

I'll find some non-abrasive tool for the super-fine adjustment in the morning. Thanks again!

 

One more thing to check.

Look at the Geometry of the Float Pin as the Float is moved up and down.
On some Float Needles the retention Wire is "Off Center"
Moving the retention Wire to the opposite side of the Float Tang might correct the angle.

(( When installing Carb Kits imported from a manufacturer that does not give the orphan his half-cup of rice for lunch until he has pushed-on 5,000 rubber tips onto float pin to be shipped with Brass seats that don't reflect light of the cylinder walls.

I roll-up a tight section of 2000 Grit Finishing Paper and apply a Finish to the New Seat.
I also look at the Tip of the Needle to see if the Rubber end is:
On right, centered and NOT overlapping the Needle.

If you find that the Rubber tip is "Un-balanced"...
Remove the Retention wire.
Chuck the Needle in your drill
Rotate it at medium speed making sure its NOT wobbling.

Using 1000 Grit Finishing Paper "Glue-Sticked" to an Emory Board ... reduce the overlap ...
WITHOUT touching the "Cone" of the Needle Tip. ))

 

Whoa. I wouldn't have thought that this kind of repair would be possible on such a delicate part. Thanks, Rick.

I thought I'd make a final post to say that I was finally able to get the float level set on the last carb. I used a small nylon cable tie to protect the tang as I wedged a very small screwdriver in and bent it just a hair. I think I have all four of them within spec now. I thought that this could be challenging but I honestly never imagined that it would be as difficult as it was. I'm NOT going to be eager to do this again, although I imagine I'd have better luck the second time around.

Thanks again to everyone who pitched in to try and help. I would be pretty lost without this forum and I appreciate your patience. I realize I've probably worn out my welcome in a very short time, but I hope that I'll be able to return the favor before too long.