Freaky Deaky Clutch

Here are the facts:

- I just installed new friction plates and clutch springs
- Easy clutch pull
- Properly adjusted cable
- Sometimes when I take off in first it will grab within the first inch of clutch movement and hold,sometimes it will release again in mid range, then grab again near the end of the clutch movement. (as a reference use from the handlebar to the end of the clutch lever as the movement range)
- 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th all grab at teh end of the movement.

My questions are:

- How much of the movement range should I feel friction considering they are new friction plates?
- Can someone explain these symptoms and are they a potential problem? other than the fact that my first gear launches are somewhat unpredictable.

Notes:

The previous clutch had only one poor friction plate (outermost plate if i remember correctly).. the rest were 3mm

- I replaced them all.





Thanks for any input.

-Kyle

 

I just did mine and have grabbing action as soon as I let it out. my advice is to remove the 'easypull clutch lever thingy' and try that. I beleive the arm coming out of the engine clutch cover should be facing 11 O'clock

 

'easy pull clutch lever thingy'? This really sucks that I just did the clutch and I get poor clutch friciton.

 

sounds like the clutch cable needs some oil

 

I did the clutch cable oiling already as well..

 

the first steel plate in that picture looks like it's seen better days but the second one looks new, is that the just the picture?
do the edges of the slots on the clutch basket have groves on them or nice and flat?

 

it's not just the picture. I didnt notice that before I installed it again. I didn't see anything odd with the clutch basket either. I really don't want to pull the case off again dammit. What are your questions leading to for a diagnosis?

 

The symptoms you're describing can be caused by the completely wrong OIL, or by a worn basket and/or hub.

The teeth on the plain plates have to be able to slide freely on the hub; the ears on the friction plates likewise have to slide freely between the ears on the basket.

If the hub and/or basket are worn substantially enough to snag the plates, the clutch won't operate properly.

Take a look at this photo:



Notice the shiny wear spots from the plates on the basket and hub. In this pic, the parts are simply polished in those areas, so the parts are still serviceable.

If the wear areas on either hub or basket are deep enough to FEEL, AT ALL, with your fingertip or by sliding your fingernail along the surface, they merit attention.

Slight wear can be smoothed out with a small sharpening stone; major wear means start looking for replacement parts on eBay.

 

Not trying to hijack, but is that the little spring connected to the clutch cover?

 

the little spring connected to the cover is just to take up the slack in the mechanism and hold everything at "home." It has no effect on operation.

 

So I removed the spring, no effect.. after riding some more, this clutch is really pissing me off... you can never predict where it's going to grab for launch so there is something serious going on. I guess I will pull the cover and look at the basket. Based on a pic that I took when I had the cover off the first time, it looks to be about the same as the one shown but it's hard to tell. While I have it apart, should I scuff up the steel plates? any other measures I should take?



ps. the clutch arm off the cover faces more like 8 o'clock ( i guess that could be 11 based on what clock you're looking at haha) but I don't see how it could vary since cable length can't change.

 

Two things: First off, the throwout lever position will probably be off unless the gear teeth picked up the shaft on exactly the same teeth they started out with, which is highly unlikely. You may need to reposition your throwout lever by a spline or two.

Secondly, from looking at your pic, I see what appear to be some "divots" (not just polished spots) on the hub splines. If there are little depressions worn into the splines on the hub (or the basket,) the plates will hang up and not release predictably, causing your symptoms. The intermittent behavior is because they will hang up/release differently depending on whether or not they are under load at the time.

You're going to need to inspect the hub and cage carefully, and try to smooth out any of the worn-in depressions. If they won't smooth out with very little work (use a honing stone) then the part may need to be replaced.

It looks like you might need a hub assembly.

You can "refinish" the plain plates with Scotchbrite if necessary.

 

Thanks for the reply.

The throwout lever is positioned properly. I'll let you know how the basket is when I open it up. Hopefully no replacement needed *fingers crossed*

 

Before you replaced the Driving Plates and Friction Plates you should have wiped-down the Surfaces where the Drivers contact the Boss and the Frictions contact the Basket with:

Panty Hose

If the Panty Hose snag during the wipe-down the Surfaces need to be Dressed with a STONE to rid them of Galling.

I don't see too much evidence of Galling in the Photo (although its not the best Photo.)

When you reinstall the Clutch Plates and Pressure Plate every move you make thereafter determines how well the Clutch will perform.

The Pull Rod (3) needs to be "Walked into" the Pinion Gear (24) while the Cover is reinstalled.
Once the Cover is back on, ... you begin making adjustments to insure that the Clutch will get COMPLETE Pressure and Release.

The ROD (Push Lever Axle - 22) needs to be ROTATED Clockwise to remove all Free Play at the lower Pinion.
(A shoe lace wound around the Rod and pulled taunt then taped to the Case will suffice).

Now, you must POSITION the Throw-Out Arm (Push Lever Assy - 20) on the Splines of the ROD to get the Maximum Throw when the Cable is Pulled.

Loosen the two Locking Hex Nuts on the Adjustment Barrel of the Lower Clutch Cable.
Loosen the Thumb Wheel Lock and Knurl Adjuster up at the Clutch Lever Perch.
Oil the Knurls Threads and position the Knurl 3 Turns OUT from fully screwed into the Lever Perch.
Lock the Thumb Wheel

Push the WHOLE Cable UP so that the Upper End enters the Receiving-end for the Cable at the Knurl.
Keeping the end of the Cable firmly in the Knurl, ...
Attach the LOWER End back into the Lower Bracket.
Keep the SLACK out going to the Perch.
TIGHTEN the Two Hex Nuts.

Pull the BULLET at the Cable End down removing any Slack in the Cable.
MEASURE how the Throw-Out Arm needs to be mounted on the SPLINES of the ROD to allow the Cable Connection Fitting to TOUCH the Bullet with ALL Slack removed.

Mount the Throw-out Arm on the Rod with ALL Free Play out of the ROD.
Use Padded Vice Grips or a Large Adjustable Wrench to Lever the Throw-Out Arm over to the RIGHT to allow you to place the Cable-end Bullet into the THROW-OUT ARM's Receiving Clip.

Adjust the LOWER CABLE in the ADJUSTING BRACKET by turning the Hex Nuts to MOVE THE WHOLE CABLE --> Up or Down <-- until you have THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF FREE PLAY YOU CAN FEEL.
Lock the Hex Nuts.

Unlock the Perch Thumb Wheel Lock.
Move the KNURL to REMOVE the FREE PLAY and No further.

The Clutch is Adjusted.

 

So I got some time to look into this a bit more. The clutch adjustment was great. So I pulled off the cover to take a look. Needless to say I was surprised with what I saw. Take a look at some pics.

Clutch Basket is smooth to the touch. The only place I see slight problems is at the very outer edge of the friction plate basket there are small burrs but they shouldn't be a problem. But, not taking anymore chances so i'll smooth them out.



Question.. is the clutch plate #1 (the one that belongs in the clutch boss assembly) supposed to be dimpled like the 7 other clutch plates? I sure hope not haha



The worst part. And before you laugh at me, realize that the last person to touch this clutch before me was supposed to have been a dealer mechanic. I'm just not sure where this came from.



after I broke it in half. it was fairly strong and brittle. maybe the clutch heat had something to do with it. what could this be?



My first guess, considering that it has a round cross-section. and that after looking at the assembly diagram. it's the clutch boss ring. which apparently decintegrated before I got the bike..


i'm assuming that small cutout near the base of the basket is the groove for this ring to sit in.. (see first pic)

Thanks in advance for any input

Kyle

 

Look-in the Clutch and you can see where it goes.

That "RING" (10) ... fits into a Locking Channel on the Boss.

You place onto the Boss these parts in this order:

Seat Plate (7)
Spring Plate Clutch Boss (8)
Driven Plate (9)
Locking Ring (10)

 

OK, gotta straighten some terminology out here, for those unfamiliar with the way in which the 550 clutch is different from the other bikes.

See: http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... tml#195348 This is the 550 clutch, but the hub assembly is essentially the same.

That's not the "clutch boss spring" you have there. It's the wire retainer ring that holds the clutch HUB together. As Rick pointed out, there are a series of grooves at the very bottom of the hub that are supposed to hold that wire ring; the very first plain plate is "attached" to the hub with it.

All of that is the assembly marked as "do not disassemble." Normally there is no need to take that apart. Looking more closely at your pictures, I see it's missing.

What you are going to have to do is pull the clutch hub off (get a new tab washer with the rest of the parts) and reassemble it. Chacal carries the parts; I would get a new plate for the hub and the retainer wire of course.

I'll get you a couple of pictures of an assembled hub up this afternoon, I've got one on the bench right now.

The "clutch boss spring" is a big wave washer/ring that goes inside a "different" (bigger ID) friction plate, in the third position in from the outside of the pack, as illustrated. This is unique to the 500/550/600 series motors, the big bikes don't have those. You don't have one.

Sorry, hadn't considered your hub might be disassembling itself. Once you get this fixed, your clutch should be fine.

I suspect whoever had it apart before took the wire ring off, then reused it. YOU CAN'T DO THAT. It's like re-using a cotter pin. Bad ju-ju.

 

Thanks for the replies. I labelled the part as the clutch boss ring not spring. anyway that's all that's missing. I took the other boss assembly parts out to make sure everything was cleaned out and put them back and in the right order/orientation. I have to ride this thing 250 miles tuesday so I can't wait for an order. hopefully my dealer or local supplier has something or ya i'll make the order. My question is.. since i've ridden it like this for a while it was a faulty clutch but didnt fail. if I can't get a boss ring by tuesday is it rideable or is there ca chance for catastrophic failure?

 

alright. I went to a local shop and pulled one off another bike.. considering I have to ride on tuesday this was my only option. i'll put in an order for a new one in victoria when I get there.

Thanks for any input guys.

Just waiting for the tank to dry from paint then i'll let you know how the clutch does first ride.

Cheers,

Kyle

 

Good job. I tend to treat hubs as assemblies myself; now that you've seen one all put together I won't bother with the pics.

If you've reassembled it with a solid viable hub then you should be good to go. I think you were done in by a previous "mechanic" I wouldn't be concerned about a repeat failure.

Ride safe.

 

here's the diagram I was going off of. seemed dead on.

 

Yep, you're good. My "corrected" diagram is for the 550s.

Usually, part #7 (consisting of itself plus #8, 9, 10, and 11) doesn't get disassembled.

 

Gotcha, I didn't even touch those plates the first time through for that reason (i'm pretty sure it was a post of yours that I saw before I tried this operation. Thanks for the info!!) I didn't notice that the ring was completely disintegrated (see lesson below). the second time I pulled it off I heard that small section of the ring fall into the basket.

Update.. the clutch works like a clutch should!! i'm stoked that I can now know when it's going to grab and ride with confidence!

Lesson here. look at the assembly diagrams and be sure that everything is 100% there and installed properly especially if you don't know the whole history of the bike and/or you have to remove a gasketed cover.

 

So i have run into a situation with my clutch on the 750. when I had got it back together from my rebuild the clutch was slipping...took it apart everything looked pretty good and probably didn't need to replace any of the plates, steel or friction however I did anyway.

I immeadiately notice a big difference and my problem seemed to be resolved but a couple hundred km's later it seems like it will not disengage from neutral. I'll make adjustments on the cable then it would catch but not enough to ride.

So last night I took the clutch apart again and the closest steel plate to the engine was purple...but only half of it.

I have a clutch perch off of a 2004 ninja with asv levers. I have as much free play as possible taken up with the cable adjustments at the bars and at the clutch but its seems that it still isn't enough. I have heard this is common with a different perch set-up and that guys that have XS's sometimes at a second steel plate to the first one in....I have one in there now and haven't tried it yet but I'm going to take it out tonight.

Also...it states in the sevice manual and in the supplementary that when adding/changing oil without a filter change, the bike only requires 2.5 liters. When I do this the oil doesn't even show in the sight glass when the bike is sitting level.

Oh and the pressure plate is mint, same as the inner hub. Everythings is in good shape.

 

Problem solved.