When todays bikes become old...... will they become scrap?

I read an interesting article the other day in one of the nationally published mags. It was written by an author that I have read since the 70's when he was working on a brand new engine configuration. He tends to go a little to technical for my tastes rather often but this month, he made a point that should strike home with any lover of vintage bikes.

He reminded me that for us, all of us here on this forum, it doesn’t take a whole lot for us to get these bikes running. Spark, gas, air and compression are all relatively easy to come by and once all three are assembled in the correct quantities, we would have standing before us, a running (to some degree) motorcycle.

Many of us remember points and all the little tricks we used to use to keep them operating correctly to time the sparks at the plugs. Ahh, remember the matchbook? How great was that little invention? We not only had a means of cleaning and dressing the points, but a built in points gap setter as well! Yup, all those types of things were the things that helped us keep our bikes running. I owned Kawasaki triples back in the 70’s and still do but at least my H2’s in the garage have CDI ignition and not the THREE sets of points that my H1’s had back then. In fact, most of the bikes presently in my garage have points operated ignitions.

Then it was my English loving friends that taught me about the first Lord of Darkness that reigned supreme long before Star Wars was even a gleam in the George Lucas’s eye. Yes, Lucas Electrics. We had to learn that + goes to ground and leaking smoke causes electrical problems and not the other way around. We learned that various thicknesses of aluminum could be rated for 5, 10 and 15 amp fuses when all else failed. We learned of magneto lighting and ignitions. Rev it up and the headlight shown brightly, over-rev and it burned out. They put up with all that because the handling was second to none and besides, they had me to fix their bikes<LOL>.

Long before Tickle-me-Elmo was Tickle-me-Amal. No rider was absent the smell of dried gasoline on his fingers. Bugs were a food classification long before full-faced helmets were available to the masses. If you rode a bike, you learned how to fix it, no exceptions. There were no “riders” as many of today’s owners are. Just as I know most if not all of the guys reading this know how to work on their own machines, it just came with the territory so to speak since neither me nor anyone I knew could afford to have anyone else wrench on our bikes.

There is a point to all this nostalgia. It is going to end soon. That’s right I’m afraid. Mr Wood in his article brought up a very good point.

With today’s computerized electronic fuel injections and multiple mapping and software controlled antilock braking systems, what are our children going to do when they find that 40 year old 2010 ZX10 in the old barn long after we’ve transformed back into dust? How will they ever replace the old and corroded fuel injection computer that runs on a 32 bit system when that technology is, well, 40 years old?

Even find anyone be able to resurrect an old DOS computer? Of course not. Even the old guys don’t have parts for them anymore or even the hardware platform to run it on.

That is the point. Since today’s bikes take much more to produce a simple spark and many if not most bikes either are or soon will be throttle by wire…..what will those kids be able to get running?

Have we found or maybe created our own ending to collecting Vintage bikes? I for one hope not cause my old bikes have something that I can't find on the new ones, a soul.......

jeff

 

Probably scrap. Most of today's things are disposable and designed for a lack of maintainance by the owners, just toss it away when it's done.

Unit hubs on trucks, instead of bearings you grease. No maint. but you chuck them and $600 (parts cost) of your money in the trash every year or two.

Been left on the side of the road by my jeep and an $11 sensor it can't run without. No warnings, just quits, engine dead. It's a 94. A limp home program would have been great.

My wife's Jeep Compass has been insisting via warning light that we're missing a tire for 2 years now because I refuse to pay $400 for an air pressure sensor. I told the dealer I've got a tire guage, thanks.

We're creating "smarter" vehicles and dumber people.

Sure 4 carbs can be a pain but once they're sorted you're likely good to go for years as long as the rest of the bike is in order.

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

This is gonna make me sound like one of those Old Farts that you never wanted to be, when your were young (guess I am one at my age). :twisted: EVERYTHING THAT IS BUILT NOW IS DISPOSABLE :twisted: !!!

skillet
BTW as you probably guessed, this is a pet peeve of mine

 

It will be a shame that "modern" bikes will mostly be junk (hopefully recycled in the "future").

But then again, entry level bikes are only what 4-6k? Not saying that is cheap for everyone. But if you just want to putz around many people COULD afford those if they knew how to ride AND were not convinced they HAVE to buy the 20k beasts...

Unfortunately even the 20k beasts (or 40k wings) will probably be junk as well.

Maybe the Star Royal Venture will still have carbs in 40 years - That model is NOT stuck in the past... It's future proofed!!!

 

Cant say I mind the idea of seeing these modern bikes slowly dying off....

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

Metal-bob brings up a good point, how many of us bought a new bike for our first? I didn't and only know a couple of guys that did, both in their early 20's. I began riding in 73 and never had a new bike or really even thought too much about a new one. I remember going to the yammy dealer and looking at the TX500 in the mid seventies, the brown one....don't know why but I REALLY liked that bike. Maybe because compared to my 73 CB350 it seemd so much nicer but it wasn't worth the money to me.

Maybe it's because I've turned into that old fart that Skillet mentioned but when I bought my very first new bike, it was a bike I could ride 1000miles without blinking or take my sweetheart camping on for a long weekend. In 07 is cost me 7400otd for a Vstrom 1000 and I had to mod a few things to make it more comfortable on the highway but it's bulletproof. It's not much better then Iwin's jeep....all electronic sensors etc and when it gets to the point that they can't be replaced, it will be worthless which is a shame. Now, if it had carbs then it could probably last forever with a rebuild or two but it won't with proprietary software and sensors.....

jeff

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

It might not even be an "age" thing. Talking to people my age, folks that feel the way I do seem to be in the minority. You have to end up on a site like this (or one like it) to find kindred spirits. IMHO a "throw away society" is just wrong ???

skillet
BTW I'll put away my soap box now...

 

I dont see the problem by then we wont be here and the gas engine will be obsolete. There will be hydrogen powered vehicles that fly through the air no more roads and you wont even have to pilot it it will just go to where your thinking about. Doughnuts will be the health food of choice and beer will be considered one of the major food groups. But marajuwanta will still be illegal unless you live in Muskogee

 

OK, Buck Rogers. Or is that George Jetson?

And here we are, it IS the 21st Century, and we still have cars with tires.

Did you see the Audis (and other vehicles) in "I, Robot?" They still had wheels...

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

You guys are forgetting one leetle teenie fact. The manufacturers didn't make just one of each of their models. As such spare parts (via donor bikes) will be available long after the models have been discontinued.

It is also dirt bag simple to find the parts these day. A few minutes on ebay and poof! You got it. When was the last time one of our members bought a new Yamaha carburetor?

There will likely continue to be folks like our own Len who can source consumables for us nostalgia buffs.

Some models have known failure problems that are extremely expensive to replace through the dealer network. For many of these parts there are the entrepreneurial sorts who design and manufacture better than new replacement parts or repair services to fix at the component level expensive assemblies at a fraction of the cost of new. A great example of this is the latch for the trunk on my BMW K1200 LT. It is a crappy overly complex design that causes the handle to break. A high percentage of the latches do fail too. No worries though because BMW has a solution. You remove the trunk, drill out the rivets holding the 2 halves of the case together and replace the bottom half of the trunk. I am NOT SH***ING YOU!!! The cost for the part is $1200. One thousand two hundred dollars. An enterprising gentleman designed two kits. One is a "Fix it before it breaks" kit and the other one is the one you need if your latch has already failed. Cost? $123 and $360. Go look at the kits. They are amazing. www.lttrunklatch.com

Fear not my friends! The sky is not falling!

Loren

 

It will have to be George Jetson i am all out of sparklers.

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

*Jumps on soap box*
This is what happens when you outsource engineers and pay the LOWEST bidder. No one knows how to fix/redesign it and the OEM parts are crap.
*Jumps off box*
(FYI: I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering but worked as a Quality Manager).

 

I want the electric/hydrogen/antimatter/whatever dual purpose bike from the NEW Star Trek movie

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

That's more than a good news!!!!
I just hope that my bikes will last for pretty long. (I have a 2009 suzuki M90 and a 750 maxim)I guess that the only way i can help things is by taking care of my bikes without kicking the hell out off them.

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

I think Im going to buy a Ducati 1198r and store every part on it untill im about 90, then ill give it to my great grandson. and he can sell it to a museum and bury my sorry a** with the leftover money. hahahha Life insurance here i come! (or should i say ducati dealer) :lol:

 

we might not be able to bring them back but someone will
i read about a guy that had a program on a laptop in his car just for emission inspection, passed every test perfect even though it was blowing blue smoke

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

Sounds like a plan!

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

I like what wamaxim said....

I'd like to think that in 40 odd years time people will still swoon and gasp at shows and spend hours rebuilding their neglected old MT-03s or whatever. Another generation of enthusiasts will surely bring another generation of expertise. Meanwhile I'm more than happy dwelling in the world of choke levers and suchlike.......

By the way, I'm only 24. And I really can't stand most modern bikes!

 

Right, I'm in, I have this theory about the evolution of things mechanical, where they go though design changes until they are pretty near perfect, then henceforth it's just tinkering.
Take the rifle for example, muzzel loading flintlock, rim fire, pin fire, untill you get to the winchester repeater, that was IT for me.
Like the bike I am rebuilding now the Bonneville copy, XS650D, the pinnacle.
More & more bike manufacturers are producing 'retro' bikes, I'm sure these bikes could be 'tinkered' with, long into the future, while the tupperware examples will go the same way as the mini skirt & the hoola hoop.

 

Because they have tupperware? The mechanicals are the same as a non-tupperware bike so why will they hula hoop and mini-skirt?

Loren

 

It gets down to the mechanical facts of it all. The combustion engine is inefficient at best no ifs ands or buts about it. Aluminum frames can not be trusted the oxidation ( rust in the iron would) runs with the grain of the metal may not be detectable to the eye only x-ray or eddy current will detect the flaws in the frame. Electronics deteriorate even if they are never ever used. But somewhere somehow there will be a group of people that will find a way around all the problems and low and behold there will be a vintage 2010 bike flying down the hiway with some guy with a big grin on his face.

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

"there will be a group of people that will find a way around all the problems and low and behold there will be a vintage 2010 bike flying down the hiway with some guy with a big grin on his face."

I sure hope Waldo's right....I know that for me, one of the best sounds in the world if the first startup of a machine that has laid dormant for decades.

wamax- the internal basics are the same but with all the operational 'lectrics such as fuel injector controllers and cpu's governing everything, that are sitting and corroding in the junkyards, it may be nearly impossible to resurrect them. It may not be a simple matter of cleaning contacts, verifying voltage and go....or maybe it won't be an issue....just food for thought.

jeff

 

I don't know why there is so much concern over the electrics. We all have a CDI box that rarely fails even on a 30 y.o. bike., and doesn't need maintenance.

Sensors aren't going anywhere and I'm sure they will be available in 30 years. Injectors are available OEM or aftermarket already.

Manufacturing processes are much better than when our bikes were made, so even the worst manufactured bike today is probably the same quality as the best 30 years ago.

In 30 years it may not be enough to know how to turn a wrench. You will have to solder a board, you may have to code also. I don't see this as a problem with the equipment. It may be a problem for our education system, which is far from the best right now. There will probably be forums just like this one for people that want to learn how to do those things.

As far as parts that go bad and leave you stranded, you can't argue with the fact that as vehicles have gotten more advanced, with sensors and the like, initial quality is higher, and warranties are getting longer. 100k miles and 10 years used to be a lot for a car, now many have warranties that go up that high. I'd rather get stranded by a $11 sensor than a $400 part.

Sure, there will be electronic parts on some bikes that go bad and are expensive to replace (auto-canceller for flashers, anybody?). But something makes me think we'll get by.

 

All you will need to do is buy a cheap 'one type fits all' ECU with an adaptor harness and download the program for your bike model and Bobs your dads brother.

This will happen sooner not later.

 

I tried to find this info but came up empty: does the 2011 XJ have any new "fancy" electronics (like CDI, or fuel injection, or ABS), or is it the old, plain, reliable same as my 93 XJ400?
I ask because in 2021 I will be 67 (if I ever make it), so I will possibly afford one!

 

LOTS of new fancy electronics; all of the ones you mentioned.

The 2011 FZ6R (the great-grandchild of the original 400/500/550/600 series) has electronic fuel injection, Digital TCI ignition, liquid cooling, 4 valves per cylinder and according to Yamaha gets 43mpg.

My '81-'83 550 Secas get 52-56mpg, and weigh about 50lb less.

Progress.

 

Why, that seems a clear example of "more is less"! This looks more like "retrogress" to me, hehe!
I have a picture of a blue one as wallpaper on my PC. I like tha staggered seat, and maybe I will style my 400 after it, but that will be all!
Imagine, having to fish twice as much shims from the shim pool!

 

Oh, you don't even want to know about adjusting the valves on those bikes.

The shims are about the size of an aspirin, and located under the buckets, requiring removal of the camshafts to accomplish the process.

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

Fitz, you just described the valve lash adjustment on my Beemer. A little button of precise thickness INSIDE the valve lift bucket. They look, from the outside, like a solid lifter and to adjust the lash you have to tie wrap the timing chain to the gears on both camshafts as well as the gear on the crankshaft and then remove the cam shafts. This is after you remove all the tupperware and other flotsam and jetsam. The good news is that the service interval is each 24,000 miles. It appears that the first bucket change is usually at 72,000 miles and then usually only one or two buckets need to be changed.

Loren

 

Well here's my 2c! For us that work on, restore, or hot rod bikes, We will probably need to go to a tech school for a semester or two to brush up. TV's used to have tubes and grocery stores had tube testing machines. They didn't last long between tweaks but we kept them going long enough to see a couple thousand episodes of gunsmoke or 200+ I Love Lucy episodes. Motorcycles arent made for or by home mechanics any more. Honda and Suzuki build cars, good ones too. By the time their engnes wear out the car isn't worth fixing.
The motorcycles we have are becoming as obsolete as dwell/tach meters and the new ones aren't made to be fixed, that's why parts are so expensive, The manufacturers don't want us to tinker with them, they want us to buy new ones. As a tribute to their iconic obsolence Harley Davidson may be the last one standing (or running). I don't see nearly the difficulty buying parts for them but I spent 1/2 my life trying to get engnes to idle smooth, without shaking to the point where sitting next to one in traffic makes me cringe. Real Hot rodding, is becomming a lost art other than stock replacement, engine mods & swaps are illegal in many places. It's just a matter of trickle down. Now, most bikes worth having new come with catalytic converters. Emission testing on motorcycles for registration will follow soon and it will become more expensive to own and maintain an old bike, buying a new one will become the most sensable solution.
We need to get educated enough to understand their systems, including infared analisys, and get a new set of tools or we will be just as helpless as a housewife in a dealer repair shop.

 

Dear Padre, I just hated your post! Why did you have to sound so horribly right?
You pressed all my open sores: I own an old, very low tech, US$800 93 Daihatsu (carburetor, not injection). Israel has a nightmare called "the test" - a yearly check on suspension, brakes, emission, general appearance (or is is "appearence"?). I got it easy the first time (I got here two years ago), the guys only made me change the front plate (was perfect but hey, you gotta dole out something!) but I see the poor thing decaying fast. Same thing for motorcycles (transplanting engines or changing original characteristics is a no-no, worthy a meet-and-greet with the judge), and it won't be long before this darn catalytic thingy comes along, I hear.
So Padre, be a sport and don't let reality spoil my dreams!

 

My 2cents: Have agree with aharon. It's sad that we now live an a DISPOSABLE world now. Things like a 1957 Chevrolet (had a few of them,a 57 4dr wagon with 283 overdrive that got 24mpg) were made to last not replace every 5 years But I guess that is PROGRESS-more like REGRESS. I also think our education system is sad,they just push people through instead of educating them. But I guess life is what you make of it good or bad. You would think that by now we have the tech available to make cars and bike to get 75 or 100mpg gallon. But we live in a world that's economy is based on the price of Oil and that is sad because of what the oil companies have suppressed in the field of making hi-mile-per-gallon engines. My2 cents. (PS Check out this site RexResearch.com some different stuff on it.)

 

We that build and restore old bikes, cars, trucks, snowmobiles or what ever will have an ample supply of bikes and parts for decades to come. Bikes that lose their fun after a few thousand miles and wind up under tarps, wrecked bikes with good engnes, Old worn out bikes with straight frames etc. And allways their will be some manufacutrer that will make piston crowns that look like Howdy Duty for the right price.
Motorcycles haven't been so popular since Yamaha came out with the Enduro 360 monoshock, and us that rode them got older and want something more civilized to ride to the taco shop at lunch or to a weekend cabin a couple hundred miles away. There's no shame in getting older, as longer as we get smarter along the way.
Since the first XJs left the showrooms, the sience of the internal combustion engine has totaly evolved, we have learned the cylinder opperating temps, Have a lower end limit and engines that run warmer than before last longer. We can expect the new stuff to last longer than ever before.

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

As a newcomer to fixing my own bike, I see that many "wondrows" things that usually justify bike shops to charge us an arm and a leg for stuff that we could do ourselves are not that complicated or "mysterious" as I once supposed.
Like shims. Now that my good friends here have taught me how to measure the gap, remove and check the shim thickness, and how to get the clearance back to its original measure, I wonder if, come the day when the "shim pool" goes dry, we will not be able to partner up with a good lathe shop and do them shims ourselves... Not far fetched, right?
The "know how" you guys share in this forum is worth the weight of its bites in gold!!! Since bites are unsubstantial, one wonders who pays for this forum to be up - and this is a question: who foots this bill? The advertisements? I hope they are enough, because I would still be the same frightened, ignorant "rider" of yore...

 

Re: When todays bikes become old...... will they become scra

Fitz like to bring up the fact, and it is a fact, that his old bike gets better gas mileage than a new, similar bike. I think, however, that for every cc of displacement, we keep getting more and more power as time goes by. I'm curious if you can get a 250cc with the same horsepower our old bikes have. I don't doubt you could, and it would probably get better gas mileage too.

If high efficiency, low horsepower bikes would SELL, then there would be plenty of them. Instead we get 650cc bikes with 120 horsepower and 40 mpg. My 650 with 60 horsepower also gets 40 mph. So the new bike gets 3 hp-mile per gallon, and mine gets 1.5 hp-mile/gallon. Sometimes you can't get a good picture using absolute terms.

As far as planned obsolescence, it has been a goal of auto manufacturers since Henry Ford to make a vehicle where everything failed AT THE SAME TIME. This serves two purposes. First, nothing is "over-built", thereby cutting costs and staying competitive. Second, we know that things are going to fail, so having things fail at the same time is cheaper in the long run. It is cheaper to manufacture a whole new bike on the assembly line than it is to hand re-build one, like new, from the ground up, using all new parts, and factoring in labor. Especially when a lot of that labor is just getting TO the part to be replaced.

We that work on our old XJs get away cheaper because we a) don't factor in labor b)don't use new parts and c)don't work from the ground up, because some parts last waaaaaay longer than others.

Tomorrow, a brand new bike will last 10 solid years before anything fails. Then it will all fail at once, and the economic choice will be clear, just get another new bike. Recycle the old one. The new one will be more efficient, safer, more reliable, and relatively less expensive.

Or we could go back to the old way. Have something replaced 2 times per year until after 10 years, you have a hodgepodge of new motorcycle, with some old "over-built" components mixed in. You will have sunk about the same amount of money into it as you would have for a new bike, but now you have a less efficient, less safe, less flashy, less accessorized motorcycle and, to top it all off, you never know what will break next.

Unless you are your own mechanic....and we are few and far between.

Don't believe me? Think about how much it would cost to build an XJ, from nothing....using all new parts. Add your labor at $80 per hour. No, just one, you don't get to use an assembly line, which reminds me....how much are those tools you are using?

Congratulations, you now have a bike with half the horsepower, 1/4 the stopping power, half the longevity, for about the same price. It makes sense for me, and probably you, because it's not the same price...but if I added in my labor or actually did a full restoration....I think you would find me at the dealership quick. I could get a pretty nice bike for $100 per month. That's ONE HOUR of working on my bike....PER MONTH. If you HAD to go to another mechanic....what would you do?

 

Oh, I agree 110% the only reason we can afford to pull this off (most of us anyway) is by doing our own work.

But remember, the only reason we're ALL here is because we're "old school" to one degree or another, regardless of age. If not, then we'd be the guy at the dealership buying a new bike and discarding his "old" one; or parking it in the shed under a tarp.

That guy's NOT us; but we all know him well. We generally refer to him as the "PO."

(Or a Harley rider...sorry, couldn't resist.)

 

Well put Fitz. I came from the era where if you owned a bike then OF COURSE you did your own work, we ALL did back then. What a surprise it was after taking a 20+ sabaticle from bikes to raise a family whereupon my re-entry I saw how many "riders" there are that would be lost trying to find out how to remove all the plastic to pull a plug, then wouldn't know how to set the gap if it were to bite him in the butt.

I think that's one of the reasons I belong to forums like this, most of the guys either already know how to troubleshoot and repair their own or their learning or at least want to learn.

I was surprised reading Aaron's post that he's just learning, especially after owning a Italian Harley(not very reliable) and all the other bikes that he listed. Rarely does someone own motocross bikes and not learn a few things along the way.

"planned obsolescence"...that term still reminds me of the Chevy Vega....LOL

jeff

 

Day7a1, i bought my first XJ ever for about US$500 with the intention of gutting her from everything "fossil" and have it go electric. Legal uncertainties, the heavy investment on lythium-ion batteries required, and its sheer four-cylinder beauty made me scrap the idea.
It was the obscene price of repairing it at a bike shop that got my at google, where I first found xj-owners, and then xjbikes.com. Being able to repair this XJ400 myself is also philosophical (a kind of "Zen and Art of Messing with your Bike"), but it is also - or mainly - economic oriented.
To sumarize: it may be more expensive to do it like we do, but I can spend the money "in suave installments". Plus the priceless feeling of pointing and saying "See this mess? I did it myself"!

 

Jeff, I learned a lot of things during all those years. Except from messing with gearboxes, I did all that could be done in those two strokes, and I adapted honda 125, four stroke engines in the italian harleys myself.
The thing that I am coming to terms now, and thanks to my friends here, is to deal with four-stroke engines. They always seemed very complicated to me. Now I see how mistaken I was, but it is understandable: back then there was no internet, access to information in brazil was scant, and the guys who knew would not give away their trade secrets.

As they (selfishly) say down there, "if G-d wanted snakes to fly, He would have given them wings"...

 

now, now. aren't we kinda getting WAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD? Sorry thats an american baseball refference that means, you've gone too far to be of any use to the team. I've had two strokes and four strokes and know 2 strokes are quicker then four strokes and four strokes last longer than two strokes.
Except scooters, they don't sell 2 smokes for the street in the usa any more. I'm glad, they're not reliable enough! They were almost scrap to begin with. How many two strokes over 20 years old still run, on the street daily? Yesterday I went to get some cigarettes and my xj seat was iced over, I worrried about the battery because my side cover is M.I.A. but it cranked, spouted a little life but died, I tried cranked it over twice (not wanting to stress the starter) then went to get my trusty can of ether from my apt. Half way upstairs I realized my keys were still in my bike. I went back to the bike to get the keys but I couldn't resist hitting the starter button once more, grr, pop sputter pop,pop vroom, vroom. XJ750rh, production date feb 1981, vroom, vroom, -1* c vrooom vrooom!