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Just a word to the wise...

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by schooter, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. schooter

    schooter Active Member

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    if you set your float levels with water, or use a combo of simple green and water to wash the outside of your carbs with a tooth brush, please, spray the floats down with some lube before you let them sit for any period of time and check them when you want to put them back on the bike..

    I spent a good 30-45 minutes putting my carbs in, tightening everything up, confident they would work fine because they did once i pulled them off the bike and drained the gas... when bam! gas just a pouring from my airbox, I pounded for awhile on my carbs to see if i couldnt free the stuck float, but no go.. turns out it was rusted to the shaft and didnt want to move.... there was about 2 hours of my time gone..
     
  2. cutlass79500

    cutlass79500 Well-Known Member

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    i thought i was the only 1 having bad luck with carbs lately adleast it only takes 45 min to get your carbs back on. Takes an afternoon on the virago just to put them on. I have to set the levels and put them on tomorrow. Adleast its gonna be 65 degrees
     
  3. schooter

    schooter Active Member

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    no wonder people hate viragos so much, half the cylinders twice the problems..
     
  4. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Schoot, back in the day when the 750 Virago came out it was all you saw on the street. Seemed like EVERYBODY wanted one; then they started to age and the dreaded starter clutch problem reared its ugly head, and there you have it...
     
  5. gennro

    gennro Member

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    hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
    What carbs?
     
  6. schooter

    schooter Active Member

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    you sonovagun
     
  7. TIMEtoRIDE

    TIMEtoRIDE Active Member

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    We could easily set a standard for setting the floats with a more user friendly liquid, like cooking oil - the exact same cooking oil.

    Since it's more dense than gas, the level would be a specific amount lower. Instead of 3MM, it would be 6MM for example. It would be consistent, Scientific, and repeatable in any country.

    The final "double-check" could be done with real gasoline, as the carbs wouldn't be leaking at that point.

    No fire hazzard - - no smell !! Set your floats on your kitchen table !
     
  8. snowwy66

    snowwy66 Member

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    the drawback of ANY v twin i guess.

    the front one isn't bad. but i get the luck of working on the back one before the season kicks in again.
     
  9. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Yes Schooter, it is a word to the wise and more importantly, to the not so wise.

    People STILL use water in their carbs? I'd heard to NEVER EVER use water in carbs for ANY reason way back when I first got into bikes and I never have, for any reason.

    Using carb cleaner to balance the butterflys works excellently but even then, you aren't filling the float bowls or otherwise soaking any o-rings.

    To the V guys, including the V4's and twins...there is a couple of tricks to getting your carbs on that takes 5 minutes tops. I'd heard them before but then when I got a Sabre a while back, it needed the carbs cleaned. They came off quite easily then went on just as easily. I have used two different methods since on other peoples bikes. One is the strap and tire trick and the other is the silicon grease & ratchet trick, they both work well but don't mess anything up.

    jeff
     
  10. cutlass79500

    cutlass79500 Well-Known Member

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    Definite pain in the as* to work on the carbs. And I switched from the pos Hitachi carbs that came on the models prior to 88 to later mikuni flat slides. On these Hitachis the low speed jet you is not exposed so you can't clean it properly without machining the carb to get to it. And enrichment screw on the top adjusts fuel not air. You can see by the pic setting the float level is a bit tricky since the right carb sits at an angle Which makes it more difficult. What i Have done is screwed different sized old intake boots over the years i have collected on to a board that is attached to my workbench take a level make sure side to side is level tighten up the boot clamp and your ready to set floats. Putting carbs on a virago is a royal pain The only way you can get the carbs off the bike is to remove the intake boots. I have made special tools an used different styles of bolts to make it easier.
    I Don't have any real things against the bike but the carb removal. If your short and just want to drive like a normal person its a great bike feels much smaller and lighter then my maxim with much more low end grunt but no top end rush of power. This will make everyone a bit jealus Valve ajustments can be checked and ajusted in less then 30 min screw ajusters. As far as the dreaded starter clutch any virago after 85 does not have that problem they redesigned it all. If you do have to replace the starter clutch 30 min job geat to gear. Easy way to tell if you have a good one is look at the cover where the starter goes in There is a small round cover held on by 2 allen screws on the chrome alt. cover. If your looking for a bike for your lady small light and easy to control its it,
     
  11. cutlass79500

    cutlass79500 Well-Known Member

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    Jeff if only it was so easy on a virago. I have used the strap method on many many bikes it works. for people that do use this method you need to make sure the bottom of the carb or top needs to be sitting in the boot if it isn't you can roll the outer lip of the carb boot and ruin it. The virago is a beast not hard getting the carbs in the boots. There a metal tab on the frame that the big chrome air cleaner and emission cover bolt to.That hangs down lower then the top of each carb less then 1/4 inch between carb and brkt. You have less then an inch when the carbs are out of the intake to get the boots off. and both boots have to come off or the carbs cant come off the frame. I have actually thought about pulling all the motor mounts except the rear lower and drop the motor down to get them off. But with the different bolts and bent wrenches its not to bad just takes lots of time. I feel bad for someone doing it for the first time without proper tools
     
  12. snowwy66

    snowwy66 Member

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    those tricks may have worked in the 80's.

    the later v twins have one carb. to each cylinder. on the back side. not 2 carbs connected together as an assembly.

    my front carb lays on it's side. have to seperate the wires and throttle but it can come out. after the air box is removed. and the wet test can't be done on it. it's not designed properly.

    the back one has a bunch of crap to remove. but it stands straight up. and trying to get the elbow connector ON for THAT air box. is ridiculous. not even lubrication helps out.

    there's a lot more wiring. emissions. and each carb is on the backside of each cylinder. not an easy job anymore. that's how my suzi works anyways. not sure on the other brands.

    i've never attempted a carb job on my magnas. i've heard it's not pretty and therefore i stayed away. i've looked at the pics and parts though and seen that it's NOT something i want to spend a month doing.
     
  13. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    the idea of any of the "tricks" to reinstalling carbs is instead of trying to PUSH them in, you PULL them in but if you dont look at it that way, it will be a struggle for you. my sabre was the V65, a V4 and while it did have 4 carbs bolted together, it wasnt very difficukt once you realize that you only have to pull in two at a time. when I repaired a virago 920 I think it was, pulling them in wasn't a difficult process....just remember to pull the carb and not push it. Having to remove a bunch of stuff is just part of the drill and only times a bit more time.
    Try a ratchet, come_along or strap wrench to pull it in. That way you arent trying to pull it inside the engine compartment where you have no room.

    jeff
     
  14. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Back to the original subject and in regard to TIME's comments:

    Using anything other than gas will give you false levels; we discovered a couple years back that windsheild washer solvent gives you bad readings (I was using it myself, oops...)

    TIME is right on, but nobody's done it yet; so the only accurate thing to use IS gasoline.
     
  15. cutlass79500

    cutlass79500 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldnt use anything but gas takes to long to get it right .Using anything else would be like dry setting them.
     
  16. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    I've got to ask since I didn't run into the problem myself, are these carbs usually that difficult to set? I set mine inversed and while setting the float levels, was VERY careful to get them all identical then, once the bike was reassembled, I checked the "fuel level" per the instructions and found each of them all to be exactly the same as the others and they were all correctly set. Was I just lucky? Do the floats usually differ in weight enough from each other to require setting the fuel level? If it isn't the float weights, what necessitates requiring the fuel level to be set instead of the float level? Maybe I need to learn something here.

    jeff
     
  17. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Sure. And yes they are (or can be.)

    Usually what happens in the course of a carb rebuild is the needles or needles and seats get replaced, and the aftermarket (or even new OEM) parts are sized ever so differently from the originals so the levels need to be set.

    Because of the geometry of the float actuating tang, a very small variation in "dry" height can lead to a much larger variation when the needles actually are called upon to stop fuel flow. You can be as careful as can be, and if you're off only a couple thou on your dry setting, you may end up with one actually shutting off way high or way low.

    This is further evidenced by how small an amount of adjustment is needed to affect a major level difference; in most cases, if you crank on the tang enough to know you bent it then you went too far.

    You can't count on each needle to fully stop fuel flow at exactly the same level based on your physical observation of the position. Each one operates ever so slightly differently from its neighbor. The float "ears," the pivot pins, the needle valves themelves are all loosey-goosey sloppy, tolerance-wise; each one finds its OWN "happy place" slightly differently when actually floating. Floating and hanging upside down aren't necessarily going to produce exactly the same result as far as holding the needle valve shut.

    So we use gas (and not a substitute of a different specific gravity) to test where the ACTUAL level ends up when the float and needle finally do their thing.

    I would say we're just being overly anal but the factory book has you do it that way for the same reasons, I imagine.
     
  18. rotaryboots

    rotaryboots New Member

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    There's two "V" bikes I hate working on. Virago's and VFR's. The Virago carbs are a pain in the ass, and the VFR carbs always have something break on them make of cheap plastic, that no-one carries anymore.
    Funny you mention Virago carbs. I have to rebuild a set (already taken off the bike) next week. They're not too bad once they're off.

    Bummer on the floats, didn't know people used water. Bet its better than getting gas all over your clothes though.
     
  19. cutlass79500

    cutlass79500 Well-Known Member

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    Don't know which carbs your doing on a virago hitachi or mikuni i put k&l kits in mine mikuni carbs got rid of the pos hitachis it lowered the float level 1/4 inch. I didnt want to keep dumping fuel. I have a article telling all about the carbs and how to tune them. I used a float gauge and dry set them at 19 mm checked them wet was spot on cut down on r&r float bowls. It wouldn't be bad if you ground off the tabs that hold chrome side covers on. Believe me it was temping to do it and tack it back on. This bike sat for many years gas hardened up into a rock. I had the carbs on and off it so many times not from being clogged up water was mixed with it and put a small crack in the carb somewhere from freezing. It would run good then 1 carb would flood when it got hot kept getting worse and worse. I tried 2 sets floats 3 sets of needle and seats It finally got to the point it would flood with the carbs off while i was wet setting them. Even called a friend that also rebuilds carbs. we spent an afternoon trying to get it set . Gave up had a set of later model carbs they worked great. But i got sick and it sat about 5 months 1 of the idle jets clogged up. Pulled them cleaned again Put them on and the floats started sticking. put kits in this time so there wont be any problems. Just need to spend an afternoon putting them back on. I would have given up long ago but the bike is 23 years old with 9k even miles now . God i hate that bike soon as its done its getting sold
     
  20. rotaryboots

    rotaryboots New Member

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    Only virago carbs I've ever run into were hitachi's. Getting them off isn't fun either, especially if the bike still has all the emissions crap. Dunno what it is about those floats tending to stick all the time. Even with new kits from sudco they would stick after sitting for a winter. And for some reason the customers always have to keep cranking on the bike hoping it will start, and then the famous starter gears get worn and you then have another problem. Doesn't bother me though, its more business for the shop. Just odd. You know what other bike does that overheating of the carb and boiling over? The late 90's suzuki intruders. They ran the rear cylinder's exhaust pipe facing forward beside the intake. Talk about a pain to tune. After its all warmed up and ready to go, you ride it then after 10 minutes it doesn't run the same. Frustrating. Kawasaki did that same stupid idea in the late 90's too. Needless to say they both went back to opposing exhaust ports.
     
  21. snowwy66

    snowwy66 Member

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    kind of like ford.

    putting the low side charging port for the air conditioning RIGHT UNDERNEATH the exhaust manifold.
     

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