Starter Troubles

I have a 1982 Maxim 750. I have never had any mechanical problems with the bike.

Recently, I did an oil change and decided to use synthetic oil. Immediately after this I started having starter problems.

I purchased a used starter on Ebay, which lasted 2 weeks. I just got in a rebuilt one and am experiencing the same "spinning" trouble.

The flywheel appears normal. I can freely spin it forward (towards handlebars) but not backwards (I assume that is normal).

Here's the odd question: Did the synthetic oil have anything to do with it? There seems to be oil on the flywheel.

I am at a loss!

Thanks for any help!

 

Some Synthetics are not recommended for Bikes.
What did you put in?

There should have been some small print on the bottle warning you if it was not the stuff recommended for bikes.

Don't give-up on your Starter.
It may just need a Cleaning or New Brushes.

Let me give you the best advice you will ever get, ... now that you own Yamaha XJ-Series Bike.

Get yourself a YAMAHA Workshop Manual for your Bike.
Leave it in the bathroom for "Reading Material"
When "Nature Calls" ... study the Manual.

Pretty soon, ... You are really going to know your ... (stuff)!

 

As Rick alluded to, this is actually a common issue. A lot of synthetics are too "slippery" for the starter clutch to work right.

It's NOT a gear on a bendix driving a ring gear on a flywheel like a car.

It's a "sprag" clutch that depends on a set of three rollers to "grab" a shaft when spun in one direction but not in the other. Synthetics are SO slippery the rollers can't grab.

If you feel the need to use a synthetic oil, be sure to use one that is specifically for motorcycles. The friction modifiers in automotive synthetics are part of the problem, plus they'll mess with your clutch (clutch not starter clutch) too.

You're better off with a conventional oil, rated for motorcycles, like Castrol 4T 20W50. Automotive oils have become too specialized these days.

 

I knew that I would get great advice here. I had thought it was the synthetic oil and have let the bike drain for a week. I put conventional oil in it and she starts like a champ! All that time and expense wasted on starters! UGH!

Thanks for the help! Time to ride!

 

some bikes require synthetic. my suzi doesn't make a difference. i don't think my maxims cared either way also. but every other bike i've tried conventional oil in ended up with a hard shifting transmission.

the ninja i once had even went so far as to have a rod knock at an idle using conventional oil.

it's a good idea learned that synthetic can cauase starter problems. who woulda thunk.

 

It's a common concern with the XJs as Rick and I pointed out.

It's not "new news" it's been posted here many times, invariably with the same positive outcome.

 

Oh, don't mention it . . .

Welcome aboard ! Oddly, my 750 can handle full synthetics but my 900 gets the "goose honk" on AmsOil 20W50 motorcycle oil, but is fine on conventional 20W50.

 

Not really wasted time, you are already on your way to builiding your own Lexicon of knowledge.
This is something that you can now pass on to others, welcome to the learning curve. 8)

 

Well I've tried the fancy oil thing (nothing is good enough for my bike but...). For me it was a new clutch and new springs and back to the good old mineral oil (quite cheap in comparison btw).
Too cold to ride here, but in a month...

 

Well, I thought I had the trouble licked by draining the synthetic and replacing it with conventional oil, then I had trouble starting it after a ride with my wife tonight.

I'm wondering whether I might have caused other damage. The bike finally started and I took it directly home.

This is a rebuilt starter on it now, and a brand new battery. Any ideas? A costly repair? DO I need to flush the engine to get rid of any residual synthetic?

 

If the Starter is "Engaging" ... but, the Engine isn't "Cranking" ... that's something that might be bad news.

If the Starter Clutch if failing, ... the "Fix" requires dismantling the Engine to get >> down-inside << and replace the Clutch and Parts associated with the Starting Clutch Assembly.

The process is referred to as: "Splitting the Cases"

However, ...

Seeing as you have had some luck with using a different Starter, ... you might try Refurbishing a Starter, ... which "Might" add some Torque and RPM's to the Starting Motor as a last ditch maneuver.

The Starter has two ends.
The Planetary Gear end and the Electrical end.
Take a Starter that you want to come to depend upon and OVERHAUL it.

Some washers are Paper Thin and may be stuck to a rotational surface.
Look for these washers, make a drawing and CLEAN a Starter Motor.

Here's how:

Do it yourself:

Pull the starter. Clean the heck out of it.

After you get it on the bench ...

Two long screws hold BOTH indexed ends to the main body.

Remove the gear end and COMPLETELY clean and re-lube that end.
You'll need to spread one Circlip to get the Planet Main Shaft out.
Keep track of washers and spacers.
Look on the ends of the shaft and inside the housing for thin Thrust Washers that like to stay stuck where they are.

Keep everything in order as you disassemble the Planet end.
Two small Planet Gears on opposed shafts.
The Ring Gear and Main Shaft.
Every Spacer and Thrust Washer.

Clean the "Whole-works" of the "Business-end." All of it so nice and clean a Marine Drill Instructor would have the Company check-out yours as good example.

Check for washers and thrust washers hiding on shafts and bearing ports.

Clean the Electric end; too.

Pull the Case away from the Motor -- slowly.
There's NO slack in the wire connecting the Brushes to the External Power Post.
Slip the Brushes off the Commutator.
Look for a Thrust washer - inside the Case - surrounding the port for the case bearing bushing.

With the starter exploded. Clean.
Use straight Isopropyl Alcohol loaded into a sprayer that has the Stream or Spray option.
("Honey, did you see the Windex. I can't seem to find it.")

Withdraw the Armature.
Spray everything until its completely clean and what you are spraying ON is as clean as what is dripping OFF!

Shoot the Commutator, Brushes, Brush Housing, Electrical Lead and the inside of the Electric end Case. Clean.

Shoot WD-40 on the CLEAN windings and magnets.

Lube the whole-works as you reassemble the Starter.

Using Top Quality Synthetic Waterproof Grease:
Everything and every surface on the Planet - Business End - gets lubed as it's reassembled.
Shafts, shaft bushing ID's, washers, spacers, gears, pivots, bushings, etc.
Grease everything. Either liberally -- for function, or smeared-on for both rotational forces on it ... or, to hold it from slipping as you reinsert bearing shafts into bushed port on the case.

Spin the Planet Shaft after its re-clipped in and grease the rotating Planet Gears -- "On the Fly" ... as they rotate around the inside of the Ring Gear.

Lightly smear washers and spacers on the Electric End ... but, don't allow the grease to contaminate electric connections and Commutator.

Get a dab of grease into the port on the Electric end; and smear the end of the shaft which fits there.

Now, the fun and games of getting the Brushes lifted onto the Commutator and everything lined-up and back together begin.

It's like a Chinese Puzzle.

 

Rick; an oil change fixed it. Synthetics again.

 

The starter kept spinning but eventually engaged and I rode home. I haven't attempted to start it again.

The starter is a rebuilt that I just got within the last 2 weeks.

I am just wondering whether the synthetic oil damaged something, or do I need to drain it again and run some sort of cleaner, to remove all traces if possible.

I might throw my original starter back in and see what happens.

 

Get it good and warmed up, as in HOT like a 40-mile ride, and change the oil again.

 

...but wear mechanics gloves because that oil and associated parts WILL BE HOT. 8O
Nothing ruins a good oil change like burned body parts! :cry:
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

The problem, as I see it, ... is:

The Bike Magazines are running articles about how much better and less prone to leak ==> NEW BIKES are, ... running the Synthetics.

They casually state "Motorcycle Synthetic's" leaving the impression that Motorcycle's and Synthetic's ... Go-together!

They should state: "Synthetic Brands Blended for certain types of Motorcycles" and the Code, ... AND state that the Synthetics are NOT recommended for Bikes that can be harmed by Synthetic Blends containing friction reducing molecules.

 

Yea, I think it just might be residual oil left. I came home from work and started her a few times. Will take her to work tomorrow.

On another note: I have the chance to by my co-worker's 2006 Yamaha V Star 650 for $500 (His dad gave him his sweet 1600 and this one's been sitting in the parking lot at work ever since). I want to get it as a first bike for my son (who is serving in Kuwait/Iraq). The only problem it has (besides needing a charge) is it slips out of 2nd from time to time. My co-worker just kept riding it that way.

I don't want to have to tear it apart, as I really want to get away from mechanical work these days as much as that's possible). How much would this repair likely cost? I will call a garage tomorrow as well to find out.

 

As the great John Wayne might say:

"Pilgrim. To me it sounds like that-there horse's been rode pretty hard 'n put-away wet."

The guy who own the Bike with NO second gear, ... is the guy who's doing the smart thing.
Getting rid of it.

Get the book value of the bike.
Call a Dealer and get an estimate for doing the 2nd gear.
Subtract the estimate from book value.
Subtract $200 more for you doing this for the seller.
Offer him that price.

But, Rick? What if it's a negative number. Whet if fixing it costs more than it's worth?

Tell him you'll haul it away for that much!

 

$500 is a damn good deal for a 2006. you'd still be ahead of book value after the tranny fix.

i wouldn't think a 650 had that much power to ruin second gear like the bigger motors. unless the guy was just a flat out lousy driver.

 

so I’m guessing that I have the same issue with my 82 xj650...
I put royal purple syn oil in it... the starter sounds like its slipping... and when I tried to start it today it cranked and then ran down slowly and stopped wasn’t the battery... so ill try a diff oil in it as well as pulling the starter and check the gears to see if I did any damage... the bike has 8,375 original miles on it so the starter should still be good...

for the overhaul it would be a good idea to take photos on a digital camera as you take each piece off the starter and then look at them in reverse for putting it back together that way you have less of a chance of messing the order up when putting it together again...