carb sync question

I have searched high and low and cant find an easy direct answer. I have a couple issues.
First--- I took my carbs out and found that the floats were stuck and I`m not sure how to adjust them ( specifications).The actual needles are sort of rusty and the floats look real old. I moved the float and the actual seat never moves. This was true for 3 of the 4 carbs.
Second--- can I adjust my carbs without the YICS tool. I hope it is possible.I guess from an adjustment I need to start from a bench sync first and then fine tune???? I have no idea where to start. i am guessing that I need to set the butterfly gap and then re-set the little brass flat head screws to some starting point. I did verify that all of the vacuum cylinder things move freely. I am not sure of jet sizes or anything and I did check that the valves are all set correctly. i found a procedure on that.
Any help or a link to one or both questions would be great.
My bike is an 1982 maxim XJ750.

 

The carbs will need to be cleaned or rebuilt first. There are several posts on cleaning carbs. This is a link to one. Another is found by searching for" In the church of clean" by Chacal. You cannot do a partial job and expect good results. You are in for a whole lot of hurt if you don't follow step by step. The YICS tool or a variation is required to get the final setting.

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1 ... rhaul.html

 

You can use a strip of oil-soaked t-shirt material to block the YICS if you don't have access to the "tool."

In order:

Valves in spec.
Carbs religiously cleaned, as in disassembled and CLEANED.
Bench sync.
Float levels set and confirmed using fuel and the "clear tube method."
Running vacuum sync (using a manometer of some sort, and YICS blocked)
Mixture tuning (ColorTune, plug chops, "idle-drop" by ear, etc.)

If you've already checked the valve clearances, then proceed with the carbs.

 

Looks like while I wait for my new coils and carb boots I'll get to carb cleaning. Now is there going to be different specs to setting up the carbs with aftermarket 4-into-1 exhaust? Also I am running pods (they were already installed when I bought the murdercycle) and would I need to rejet if performance is lagging? I never got to try the new exhausted, but with stock pipes and pods it would bog out a little...I'm rambling Thanks!

 

Exhaust*

 

Running pods with an aftermarket 4-1 will most likely require rejetting, yes.

Look in chacal's catalog in the "XJ4Ever-Supporting Vendor" forum http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14561.html in the carb parts section there is a set of guidelines in regard to rejetting for various combinations of intake and exhaust mods.

But until your valve clearances are in spec, you'll be beating your head against the wall with the carbs.

Adjust the valves yet?

 

No I haven't and I'm a little embarrassed to say, but I don't know my way around carbs to even find the valves. I believe there was a carb cleaning thread that had it all step by step I was going to reference.

 

The valves aren't in the carbs. They're under the valve cover on top of the motor. Fitz's write up is here: http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14827.html

 

Oh those valves...I think I need some kind of holder or special tool to hold the valves to take the shims out correct?

 

There is a special tool. There is the zip tie method. The copper wire method. Read and decide: http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=29209.html

I have the tool, but it's currently out on loan. I'll be picking it up on Sunday.

 

You guys are the sh!t.

 

Just be sure you have the valves in spec BEFORE you start trying to vacuum sync the carbs or you'll drive yourself nuts.

 

I am going to be honest. If you know nothing about the carbs and adjusting valves maybe there is a member that lives near you that will help you or do it cheap while you watch. There are so many things to clean and check and if your not familiar you could possibly get in trouble. I am sure you can do it but a little help would probably give you peace of mind

 

I appreciate your concern. I actually have a good friend (well a couple that ride) that usually come over and help me out. And little by little I've been getting into the various aspects of motorcycle maintenance. I'm actually excited to do this though and as long as I stick to the guidance I've been given on here and through friends I think I can swing it.

 

I'm +/- an hour south if you end up needing more help then your friends can provide. I'm booked weekends through mid july unless you can get it down here.

 

Yeah I'll definitely let you know. P.S. how did that ride go that you told me about? I think it was MD to DE to PA and back or something like that.

 

it went well. Didn't follow the map exactly but it was a good day of riding. We had 4 xj's and a kawi versys.

 

That's awesome did you guys take any pics?

 

I thought I took more but when I got home there were only 3. My bike, OldschoolOtter's 550 and one of the Kawi I believe. When/if I get home tonight I'll post them to that ride thread.

 

Saweet. I'm house sitting and it's got a great shop in the basement I can't wait to (gently) tear the bike apart ha.

 

Hey BigFitz! This seems too obvious to me, but what the hell...should the carbs be re-jetted before I even attempt to do anything besides cleaning the carbs in and out and adjusting the valves to spec?

 

The solution to having you Bike run well when you install Pod Filters IS NOT solved by re-jetting, ... alone.

The FUEL supplied by the Larger Jet NEEDS to find its way into the Intake Stream.
Atomized.
Not in near "Droplet" form.

To make that happen, the Intake Flow needs "Form & Speed"

Plus, Main AIR needs to be delivered to the Passage to aid in the Siphoning of Fuel from the Main Jet Feed.

Re-jetting.
Further re-jetting.
And more re-jetting after that, ... is not enough to overcome performance issues.

No kidding.

 

Right, but in order for me to be able to get my carbs synced with my new exhaust and pods would it need to be re-jetted first or after once it's all tuned (presumably to "stock" running conditions) in order for it to be right?

 

Step 1 adjust the valves. Pods and exhaust have no effect on valve adjustment but valve adjustment has an effect on tuning whether or not you have pods, stock air box, stock exhaust, or an after market exhaust.

 

Well put.

Get the bloody valves in spec first. FIRST.

Then make sure everything else about the carbs (cleanliness, float levels, bench sync, etc., ) is perfect.

While you're rebuilding the carbs, re-jet in accordance with the guidelines in chacal's catalog.

Then at least you'll have half a chance at getting the bike tuned (well, sync'ed up anyway) before diving into the seventh ring of hell (rejetting for pods and a pipe.) Maybe you'll get lucky and it will be close enough, jetting wise, that you'll be happy with how it runs.

But even then, like I've said before: Don't get into a heads-up stoplight throwdown with a pure stocker. You'll be on eBay looking for an airbox...

 

Thanks guys...sometimes I need to be kicked a few times before I learn.

 

As you toil, with the idea that you're going to fix-up this Bike to truly enjoy, ... it's going to be a daunting task to Fine Tune the Bike when you have BOTH Pods and Free-flowing exhaust.

If I was you ... I'd be shopping "Airbox", ... seriously!
Give yourself a fightin'-chance at getting that bike running decently.

Seca 750RJ Airbox

Ebay: $40.00 Buy-It-Now

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/82-Yamah ... ccessories

 

Okay first...I apologize to mafia101 for hijacking his thread...with that said I checked my clearances and here is what I came up with:

1st cylinder EXT: 0.15mm, INT: 0.08mm;
2nd cylinder EXT: 0.18mm, INT: 0.13mm;
3rd cylinder EXT: 0.18mm, INT: 0.13mm;
4th cylinder EXT: 0.13mm, INT: 0.09mm

(I'm posting these up in case something doesn't sound right to any of you.)

Tomorrow I am going to try the "Zip-Tie" or "Wire" method and check the out of spec shims and do the calculations.

 

Looks about right for valves that haven't been done in a while.

#1 and #4 are tight on both intake and exhaust; 2 and 3 look fine. One size down on the shims for the tight ones and you'll be good to go.

 

I almost forgot to ask since this is a budget rebuild for this bike. Is it okay to skimp on the shims and get the repro's or is this the type of area to splurge money on if you can. Same question for valve cover and float bowl gaskets, drain plug screws etc.

 

anyone know if this will work on an 82 XJ1100 as well? PO put pods on my bike as well but the more I read the more it seems like I'd be better off going back with the air box.

 

Nevermind, found another one for $10 more.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AIR-BOX- ... _500wt_956

 

You don't need NEW Shims.
Salvage Yards.
Used.
Online Shim Pools.

Check with Techs at Repair Shops.
Some guys will have Bins of used ones they'd be happy to get rid of.

 

Alright...using BigFitz's pictorial wisdom I pulled the out of spec shims from their respective buckets using the "Zip-Tie Method". Which, by the way, worked like a charm. So here are the shim numbers for each:

1st. Cylinder: Exhaust: Y273; Intake: Y285

4th Cylinder: Exhaust: Y280; Intake: (Y)280

Side note: The "Y" on the 4th Cylinder Intake shim was non-existent with only the numbers printed on the shim. So for the sake of posting my results I put it in parentheses here.

Rick - I read somewhere that using old shims or used shims was basically just pissing in the wind. Even more frightening, I read somewhere that some guys were trying to grind the existing ones down to a more manageable size. (All found around this site of course.) What are your thoughts?

Thanks again to everyone!

 

The Shim is harder than the Cam.
Other Sites have "Shim Pools"

That line of thinking would preclude moving a Shim from one Bucket to another.

Grinding Shims isn't a good idea.
Experienced Machinist's may be inclined to shave 10-thousandths off a Shim for themselves.

Bringing a Shim to have shaved is LAME.
The Machining will cost three times the price of a New one.

 

Interesting...well by the looks of it then, and according to the chart I can swap at least one used shim I have in place of one that I need. I'll check out some of these shim pools and see what I can dig up. Otherwise I'm anxious to move on to my carburetors, syncing and whatnot. Thanks again Rick.

 

Alright here's an update... or more of an excuse for me to stare at this site for hours on end while I A.D.D. myself away from tearing apart, cleaning, and rebuilding my carbs.

Various parts were ordered from Chacal and the bastard valve shims will be swapped and checked again for the proper clearances.

Rick pointed me to look out for "shim pools", I did a quick search on this site and found a few threads on the subject and with a few people that were willing to help as well.

So far, besides my one bad float bowl gasket, the rest of the carbs are pretty clean inside. I'm using Rick's awesome guide to carb cleaning glory as well as referring to my Haynes for pictures and any/all correct nomenclature. With great success so far, in due time I shall let you know how it all fares out when the parts arrive.

 

Valves are now in spec! Valve gasket is back on and valve cover is tight and with new "donuts" to boot. Carb sync here we come. Can't wait to rebuild my carbs and get the manometer out.

 

My bike is still running lean--Here is what i have done so far
Verified valve clearance---
cleaned carbs(probably not as good as I could have)---
Attempted to sync by ear.
The end result is that the bike goes like hell,does not backfire or hesitate, usually starts right up unless it is wet.
It runs like a dream and gets o.k gas millage but the plugs are still white, still running lean. The small mixture screws are like 4 turns out. As I move them out I really do not hear much change in the RPM`S. I would expect the cylinder that I am messing with to change rpm`s as I move them in or out but it does not seem to happen. I backed 1 screw almost all the way out and really no change. I put them all at 4 turns out and called it a day.

 

Unless the Pilot FUEL and AIR Passages were cleaned and the Pilot FUEL Jets are clear and passing Fuel, ... getting Tuned-up is going to be impossible.

Likewise, ... the Main AIR Passages and the Center Emulsion Tubes (16~20) Drilled Ports need to be Clean and Flushed, too.

You NEED the Pilot Passages Clear in order to run the Bike and make the Bike IDLE without MAIN Jets kicking-in.

Clean those Carbs thoroughly CLEAN and "Clunk Test"
Bench Sync with Quarter-Inch Wide strips of 3X5 card.
You MUST make the Bike IDLE adjusting Pilot Mix Screws

You can perform a HIGHLY ACCURATE Vacuum Sync using only ONE Vacuum Gauge.

"STUFF" the YICS Passage:
http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=4 ... +yics.html

"ONE GAUGE SYNC"
http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2 ... +sync.html

 

Thanks again Rick I will be messing with my bike this weekend.....

 

Alright...so... how would one go about tuning the carbs without a manometer or carb sticks, colortune etc., and a YICS tool being null and void. I'm wanting to get it close enough so I can ride again while I wait to acquire the proper tools. Everything is so damn expensive when you're on a tight budget.

 

You really can't. However:

A "comparative" manometer can be made as simply as a 5'~6' long hunk of clear vinyl tubing and a yardstick; then you simply have to sync "in pairs" rather than trying to do all 4 at once.

Final mixture tuning can be done by ear using the "idle drop" method; but you will need some sort of manometer to sync with. Like I said, it can be as simple as a long piece of clear tubing tied to a yardstick, or two baby bottles, etc. You don't NEED an expensive special tool; they just make it easier is all.

You still need to block the YICS, so you stuff it with an oily rag instead of the tool.

 

You can build the synch tool for about $4. Search this site. Ive posted instructions as have others.

Also search for alternate YICS blocking.

Or if its rideable make a trip down here and we'll get it set.

 

Oh yeah and I don't have a tachometer...I'm working on that one too.

 

Noticed you were using a haynes manual..... I know one of the haynes has 2 jets reversed.....

 

Yeah in fact when I posted that I think I read somewhere about that and the fact that the Haynes is pretty much useless for the "correct nomenclature" as well. Can't trust a book that spells tire, "tyre". I just decided that I would draw my own diagram in the blank pages at the end of the book so I would remember what went where. Thanks for the heads-up though jmilliken.

 

Hey, what's wrong with tyre? I have trouble with books that spell colour "color" ... next you'll be calling aluminium "aluminum"

 

Don't worry iandmac, you speak English, like wot I do.

 

Ha ha no disrespect to you fellows across the pond.

I mean c'mon though, how can you put together a proper maintenance/reference book with the wrong references to important things like carb diagrams and photo's for each thing in the book.

Half of the Fig. 1's and A's in that book aren't even there!

Oh man I love hearing "aluminium"and "arse". Even my computer thinks it's wrong (wish you could see the dotted red line underneath it ). Either way I get a kick out of it as you 2 obviously do with "our" spellings.

Hey at least you're out of the riot zones in your sister country.