Aftermarket valve bucket hold down tool vs. Yamaha?

I've done the valves on two bikes now using an aftermarket hold down tool, and I really feel like it just doesn't fit very well. I find that I have to reposition it 2, 3, 4 times or more before I can maybe get it into the correct spot. In the meantime, I find that I've pressed some dents into the housing just shy of the bucket, even had the tool come off the edge of the bucket at inopportune times without realizing it whereby I ended up scratching the outside edges of the cam lobes. Not good.

My question is simple: Is the genuine Yamaha tool better or is it the same crap shoot when you use that tool?

Thanks.

 

That has been my experience as well. I think it is time to machine up a new one that fits correctly.

 

Guys, it's no "crapshoot" and the tool is fine the way it is. Honest.

There's a "trick" to it, because of the fact that your "target" (the very lip of the bucket at its very apex) is so small.

With the camshaft out of the way, you can see how being off just a bit to one side or the other will cause the tip of the tool to miss the bucket:




But since you don't remove the cam, you can't see that relationship; however as I said, there's a "trick" to it-- CENTER the tool on the CAM LOBE as shown below, and you'll get it every time without fail.

As a bonus, once centered as shown, the tool also fits just fine; you can see in the upper pic how being off to one side or the other would also greatly affect how it fits.




These pics are part of my article on using the "zip-tie trick" in place of the tool: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=29209.html which also explains how to make the tool work correctly.

 

Bigfitz is right all you have to do is position it properly. I use the aftermarket one and you just have to pay attention on positioning it correctly and you will have no problems. Also take your time on all work on theses bikes theres no fast way of doing anything.

 

I was gunna say "Zip-Tie" but fitz beat me to it i've used it on all 3 xj/maxims i've come across, and it's been fine for all 20 shim plucks.

 

Thanks so much for the responses. But, I'm not hurrying, I assure you. In fact, I spent over three hours last night just getting getting my measurements so I can buy shims...and I didn't even need to remove the shims on three of the valves. I'm moving VERY deliberately and I actually do understand how the tool works.

And Fitz, even in your photo, the tool seems to be shifted a bit to the right. To my eyes, the flat section on the top of the tool appears to be extended past the edge of the cam on the right side. Also, see how much closer the left hole is to the edge of the cam than the other hole (covered by the screw)?

So I will follow your advice very carefully when I put the new shims in which will be either later today if I find them in town, or early next week if I have to order them.

Thanks!

 

The most important factors in positioning the tool are that it be centered on the lobe (little red arrows) and pushed up tight against the cam lobe. Don't worry about slight "crookedness" it's not critical; what IS critical is it being centered (as in the top photo.) Note also that the slots in the tool aren't perfectly straight in relation to the rest of the tool; again, not critical.

I can tell you that I myself swore, cursed, blamed the tool; etc., --- until I took a camshaft out and figured out exactly what was going on. Now I can get the tool to work first time, every time.

 

OK, I'm going to try and channel my inner Fitz ...and use the force to try and make this thing work consistently. I've got my shims so I'll have at later today.

Thanks.

 

***cough*** zip-tie is easier *** cough *** I tried for 4 hours with the bucket tool and couldn't get one. Took me an hour to pull, swap, remeasure, etc, for all 8 with the zip tie. Sorry Fitz. I'm sure you're right, and there's a trick to it, but it just wasn't going my way....

 

You're not alone. My own continued frustration in getting the blasted thing to work reliably was what prompted me to pull a camshaft and get it sussed for once and for all. Until I actually SAW exactly why it wouldn't always work, I couldn't get consistent results either.

 

I've read the zip tie method before and w/o pictures it didn't quite click.

Any pictures?

 

I know your right Fitz... i just don't have the time or money to completely tear down the engine....

 

Of the "Zip Tie Trick?" I posted the link in the beginning of this thread. It's safer to use #12 house wire; and it's all presented in glorious full color photos here: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=29209.html

jmilliken Neither do I. I have a spare cylinder head, which I used for the pics. I did the article so nobody else would need to tear into their motor to figure it out.

 

I was helping a fellow once with a XJ650........he was a former lead mechanic for a large national airline, he serviced and rebuilt jet engines for 30+ years......came to me and said "something's wrong with ths tool, it don't work"..........3 minutes later he was popping out shims with it.

It's the way you hold your tongue when using it that matters.....

 

Too true. The fast way is whatever way it takes to only have to do it once. Working at a SMOOTH pace with redundant checks in one's methodology to catch possible errors. Double checking one's own work along the way and even triple checking when operations are tricky or the stakes are high. That IS the fast one. "Done in one" no corners cut. no shortcuts taken. If a shortcut is actually worth taking (ie doesn't carry risk) then it's not a shortcut, it's the right way.



I'm pretty sure the slots in the tool are only there on both sides so as to make it universal across multiple models. If yamaha had only made the tool for one specific head then at least one hole would be reamed to size, on location and the tool would come with a shoulder bolt. Fitz is right, you gotta line it up with the cam then feel the tool scrape on the face of the shim until it just "snaps" off it's edge and this is always true on every top end on which one uses this tool. The one time I used it on a venture I found it helped to just slap the thing in there with bolts almost finger tight then commence to wiggling. When it's center and you then slide the tip back towards the edge it gets a significant amount more free play once it's past the shim.

 

Yeah, I wasn't hurrying or taking shortcuts, I promise you. I don't know how to say it more clearly than that. Haste and carelessness are not the problem here. I don't even know how to do anything fast. I just completed what might be the longest brake job in history on my van. I'm thorough and deliberate to a fault. Just ask my wife.

This sounds like the opposite of what Fitz is saying. He said to push it up tight against the cam lobe.

 

There are many different methods you can use to achieve the correct result; which is to have the tool positioned as illustrated in the first pic. HOW you get there is up to you.

 

Confound you, Fitz! You're right again. Centering the danged tool on the blasted cam lobe was all it took. Valves are all adjusted. Now all I'm left with is the shame...

One more thing: After shimming, some of my valves measure a little tight. I'm assuming that they will settle down in just a hair once the motor is running, correct? And yes, I did double check all of my measurements against the graph in the manual.

Next are a couple of questions about finishing and installing the valve cover, but I'll start a new thread for that. Thanks!

 

D'oh. I honestly do these photo articles to HELP; sometimes it's hard to understand why folks would rather argue than heed the advice given. If it didn't work, I wouldn't have posted it to begin with. I did the one on the tool and the Zip Tie Trick to show people what's going on where they can't normally see it, and how knowing that can help you get it right. And once you HAD that knowledge, it worked, didn't it? But I digress...

Run the motor, allow to cool. Re-check clearances. If any are tight, put the old shims back in, or go down another size. TIGHT NOT GOOD; and there is only one size shim that will put you IN spec. Better to be right on the loose edge than tight as they only get tighter.

You are using a metric feeler, right? If not, at least do the metric conversions, at the limits some of the "American equivalent" specs are actually out of spec.

Valve cover refinishing: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=22125.html (At least how I did it.)

Valve cover installation is covered in detail in the first installment of "Airhead Valve Adjustment."

Hopefully, these will be of some help.

 

Tight, ... within Specs is OK.

Tighter than Minimum Specs will need to be closely monitored.

If a Valve gets too tight and fails to close, ... that's going to put a hurt on your wallet.

The best protection against Burned Valves is running them on the loose side of "In Specs"

They may be a little Noisy.
But, Valves closing tightly shut is a GOOD Noise.
You're much better-off "Hearing" Valve Train Noise.
When you can hear them, ...
You're not burning them!

 

I will vouch that a first-timer can successfully use the Motion Pro tool (with guidance from Fitz's writeup.)

 

I'm using an SAE feeler gauge with metric equivalents on the blades. Whenever a measurement falls on the bubble, I cheat to the loose side. This bike probably won't be running for a week or so, but I'll check them again after I have a chance to take it for a good ride (and let it cool down).

The humor was aimed at myself. Your tutorials are great and much appreciated. It's not so much being argumentative as trying to reconcile my own experience with what is being described. I'm certainly no expert (but I'm workin' on it). Asking additional questions isn't meant to cast doubt on the validity of what you're saying, just trying to come to greater clarity.

And a guy does get frustrated sometimes, but I think everyone on this list understands what that feels like. Thanks again.

 

Hey no worries. Sometimes it seems like all the work I put into this stuff goes for nought is all. Sometimes I forget that things that are second nature to me are still a challenge to those with less experience. It's often quite a challenge to explain things, even with pictures, so that everyone reading the article can understand what's being said. NEVER be shy about asking for clarification; this is my hobby not my profession.

The best recommendation I can make is to invest in one of these: http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... DcQ8wIwAQ#

It takes a whole lot of the headaches out of the process.