Bike wont start

I recently purchased a 82 xj 550, i am having issues getting it started. When i let it sit for a while it want to fire when i first vrank it but then does nothing, it has spark and compression and will not even run on starting fluid, any sugestions?

 

What, if anything, have you done to the bike?

Carbs?
Battery?
Plugs?

 

Valve adjustment and compression check?
Give us some details on what you have done. If you just got a bike that has been sitting awhile it probably wont run just by putting gas in it. It will need a bit more work.

 

Yeah no kidding.

ALL of the above, and then some. How about some details about the bike, what's been done so far, what you were told, etc.

You've got a bit of work in store for you I suspect. We can help, but we need to know a bit more.

 

Thanks for the replies, I am a ase certified auto technician, and have had experiance with bikes in the past so i am not completly clueless here.

I purchased the bike not running, it has new plugs in it, like shiny brand new, ans the right ones gapped right, I do not have a compression tester but based on the sounds and the feel of my finger over the hole when i crank it it has good compression. I was able to get it to run for about a half a second earlier. It seems like when i let it sit it wants to fire right away but does not stay running i have tried all throttle and choke positions. I have laid spark plugs out to see if they are sparking and i know that they are. The bike also seems to be getting better as i keep trying, I also used a small amount of oil in the cylensars to losten the rings (Hopefully atleast), Tomorow i may rent a compression gauge so i can confirm that it has enough to run. It also seems that starting fluid helps but does not do the trick.

I also put a new battery in the bike

She really feels like she wants to kick over and start, just needs that little extra pop.

A few questions

IS there any way to check ignition timing?

Is there a certain choke position/ throttle position that is best for starting on these bikes.

Would i have any luck push starting it?

Any other ideas would be awsome!!!

 

ONe other thing is that i have the air filter off and the air box open, Will this create a problem

 

IF, ... you got "Finger-popping Compression"
And, ... you can see the Plugs all firing.
You're problem is Fuel.

You need to CLEAN the Carbs.

 

What it sounds like is that the carbs are fouled with old varnished/gummed gas. This may also be further complicated by tight valves not allowing full compression.

Take the steps necessary to establish the true mechanical condition of the engine.

Check valve clearances, and adjust as necessary.
Do a dry/wet compression test (Remember to unplug the TCI)

Once you have all this info. Post it here, and you will get a much clearer idea of what is going on with that engine, and why it will not run.

It is not uncommon for a bike that has been sitting to need the carbs fully cleaned and/or rebuilt. Valve clearances are also an often neglected maintenance step.
In truth. It sounds fairly normal for an I just got this bike, but it does not run situation.

Ghost

 

I have an 82 XJ550. It's a great bike once it is dialed in. It starts best for me at half choke even in the winter. I am suprised that yours will not run on starting fluid, mine would if I squirted it in the vacuum sync tubes on top of the rubber carb adapters using a red spray tube, but only till the ether burned off. (back when I had carb problems)
All I can suggest is start with this:
http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14692.html

Maybe start reading up on it and getting familiar. It's not certain yet, but it does sound like this is where you are headed. It's not hard, just time consuming, parts aren't expensive, and there is plenty of help to be had right here!

 

Ok so i got a compression tester today but unfortinitly the spark plug holes are too small for the adapters it came with. I pulled the carbs off of the bike and they seemed to be pretty clean inside. I sprayed every hole out that i could find, Took off the bowl and the Top of the venturis. The rubber boots on the tops have no holes and are free or gunk. There was a small amount of gunk in the top on the rubber but that was it.

I have read on here that the best position for the pilot screw is 2 3/4 to 3 turns from the stop, is this correct, they were at about 4 1/2 turns each, how would this effect the fuel, (Rich or Lean).

Is there anything in perticular i am looking for in here before i slap these bad boys back on?

 

Oh yes, a whole bunch of stuff.

STEP 1: GET A SERVICE MANUAL; both the aftermarket (Clymer) and factory books cover a basic carb service; you've barely scratched the surface. Here's what a Mikuni looks like, "basically" torn down: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31061.html

Once you've disassembled and cleaned the carbs, polished the needle seats, replaced any less than flexible o-rings, etc;

then you need to set your float levels using fuel and clear tubing. This process is also covered in the manuals as well as on this site, many times. Note that the Mikunis have a different spec than the Hitachis that are usually the subject of such articles.

After that, then you need to do a good accurate bench sync.

Then, after reinstalling the carbs and MAKING SURE YOUR VALVE CLEARANCES ARE IN SPEC, you do a running vacuum sync with the YICS blocked.

You cannot hurry, shortcut or skip over items or you will just have to keep going back until you do it right. The Mikuni carbs on the 550s are precision instruments and must be treated as such.

GET A BOOK or you won't get this done. Honest.

Oh, and your spark plugs are 12mm which is why none of the adapters fit.

 

ok after cleaning the carbs today i feel that everything inside is cleaned out, I put them back on the bike and tried to start it, it almost wanted to start but ust wouldent all the way, I did not have the air box on it at that point, If i held my hand over the intake to the carbs it seemed like it helped, Is it possible that the airbos not being connected is what is causing it not to run, I have all the stuff to get it back on there, but the boots are such a pain that i dont want to put then on just to take them off again, What do you think?

 

It sounds like your enrichment circuits are plugged, and your emulsion tubes are also plugged at least partially. I was actually waiting for BigFitz to chime in on this one, and he is spot on! These carburators are more precise than what you'll find in other applications and without disassembly you cannot tell which carbs or which circuits are actually plugged.
I've been down this road and there is only one place to start, and that is with the valves in spec, then onto the carbs. With the quality of fuel that you get in todays gas stations they gum up faster than ever. There are lots of good threads here with how-to info, and XJ4Ever has got everything you will need parts-wise. Git er dun' !!!

 

-Are your valve clearances in spec?

-Did you individually "wet-set" the floats, using fuel and clear tubing? The spec is a 2mm range (+/- 1mm.) This HAS to be done accurately or the bike will never idle nor respond evenly to throttle.

-Did you do a super-accurate to the best of your human ability bench sync?

-You probably WON'T get it started with the carbs just sucking wind; you need the carb-to-airbox boots to be on it, sorry.

-Once you get it fired and warmed up, you'll need to do a running vacuum sync with the YICS blocked.

-Starting regimen (on a properly tuned XJ) involves NO THROTTLE; the bike should fire on full enrichment, which you slowly back off to hold it just under 2K. No "blipping" is required, you don't even touch the throttle until the motor is partially warmed up.

-If you weren't super meticulously thorough in the carbs, you WILL be revisiting. Only you know what you did or didn't do; but the carbs do too.

 

Ok first off i know that i am getting excited to ride and want it running right now but i must slow down and do it all right the first time. So back off they come.

Well i pulled the carbs back off of the bike, I am going to check the clearences while i have the carbs and fuel tank off, Is there a good way to clean the enrichment tube, that thing is really small. Are there any trucks to getting the air boots back into the intake box, that are really a pain

 

Someone posted on here to soak them in warm water to soften them up.

From there, I discovered getting the carbs onto the engine boots FIRST then working the air boots up from under the carbs was easiest. Get them around the carbs first then work them up into the air box, obviously starting with carbs 2 + 3, then finishing up with 1 + 4.

Good luck with whatever technique works best for you!

 

Having meticulously-well cleaned Carbs is absolutely necessary to attaining a state of fine-tuning.

The Enrichment Well of the Fuel Bowl must have flushed-out "Jets" [metering ports].
The Brass Tube which fits that Well ... Flushed through its opened Plunger.
Main FUEL Jet Removed ::: Flushed.
Washer removed. Brass Tube driven-out through top-side.
I.D / O.D. of Tube cleaned. Including all 16 to 20 Air Holes.

Main AIR Jet and Passage to where Tube was driven-out -- Flushed.

Pilot FUEL Jet removed.
Pilot passages Flushed.

Diaphragm Piston Bores scrubbed and refinished. Polished.

 

I just checked the valve clearences, here are the results
I did this test with the bike cold.
Intake
1 .006 (.152 mm)
2 .004 (.102 mm)
3 .007 (.178 mm)
4 .006 (.152 mm)

Exhaust
1 0
2 .003 (.076 mm)
3 .004 (.102 mm)
4 .008 (.203 mm)

I know that most of these are out of spec, expecially exhaust 1 with no clearence at all, My question is that if i switch two shims to gain clearence on exhaust 1, i should be able to start the bike, obvioiusly not let it heat up because of the change in clearence but atleat i will know that it runs. I figure that i will have to do this anyway to gain clearance so i can determine what shim to order anyway.

Another thing i noticed is that when i took of the cover to turn over the engine it looks like there is a new sensor for the ignition, is it possible that someone messed up the timing when installing this, if so what is the propper procedure for setting the ignition timing.

 

You may have an issue with that #1 exhaust valve. You should get them all shimmed correctly, and then do a compression test. Cross your fingers and hope that valve isn't burnt.

See how the compression test pans out and go from there.

 

Number one still has compression, i do not have a guage that fitts the 12 mm hole, but when i put my finger over the top it builds up enough pressure to blow my finger off and make a high pitch noise.

 

That's not a valid test. Your finger can't tell the difference between 60psi (won't run) and 130psi (healthy motor.)

Trying to start the bike with horribly out of spec valves is a waste of time.

Your measured clearances suggest the possibility of valve damage.

PUT ALL OF THE VALVES IN SPEC.

BUY OR RENT A COMPRESSION GAUGE WITH A 12MM ADAPTER and do a compression test;

that's the ONLY way we'll know if you've got any hope of firing this motor up, despite any carb efforts.

 

How many miles are on the bike???
That sounds promising and a good sign, but you still need to see the numbers to establish your engine condition. It's likely its good, but you still need the numbers at this point seeing how that clearance went to zero to rule out valve damage.
If you post your shim numbers and calculate what you will need off of the chart the guy's here will double check your numbers to make sure you get the correct ones.
How is your valve cover gasket and donuts???
Don't get frustrated, you are headed in the right direction!!!

 

And where are you located anyway??? It's nice to know where the person is that we are talking to!

 

I am located in athens, southern ohio.

The bike has 45000 miles on it but the engine has been rebuilt before, do not know when but i can deffinitly see that it has been appart.

Is there anywhere that i can rent a compression gauge that has a adapter for the 12 mm spark plug hole?

Valvecover gasket and donuts are fine, i am going to reuse, if they start to leak i can replace once i get the bike running.

 

It may have been worked on; I highly doubt it was actually rebuilt.

I got my 12mm adapter in a compression tester kit I bought at AutoZone for around $25; they may have one to loan/rent.

You don't need to do a compression test until the valves are all in spec or you'll get inaccurate results.

 

Ok so here is where i am at, I am going to finish the carbs, i have already bench sunced the butterfly's, and i will set the float level tonight, What size tubing is used to adjust float level?

Also i am going to pull each shim out individually and record the number that is written on them. Then i will post it up here with the ones that i need so you all can double check them. Then once i get the propper shims in i will do a compression test. How much do the shims cost, and are the exhaust shims and the intake shims the same, as in if i remove a shim that is the propper number for another valve can i just swap it over to that valve?

 

I found a compression gauge kit from harbor freight, i dont like them but i have a gift card so o well, it says it has a 10 mm x 1.0 12 mmx1.25 and 14 mm x 1.25

Will one of these work for the spark plug holes on the 550?

 

Your spark plugs are 12mm X 1.25 so that adapter should work.

GET THE VALVES IN SPEC first. Those super-tight exhaust valves will throw off any compression test results.

 

Ok so i tried the ziptie/ wire technique and failed, i could not achieve enough clearence to get the shim out, Where can i purchase the tool that holds the valves down?

I also went through the carbs again today and sent them to the church of clean... I am going to get some tubing tomorow and set the float levels on them, then i can put them back on and wait for this specialty tool so that i can get my valve shim numbers.

 

What do you guys think about lifting the cam because i do not have the tool and the ziptie method failed, I could mark the cam position on the chain link, I could pull the cam slightly to the side to get to the shims, them push it back down in place when done, the only problem i see running into would be if the tensioner tightened, then i would just havee to remove it before reinstalling the cam. Has anyone tried this before, I really do not want to wait a week for a tool to show up just so that i can check what shims i have in it.

 

I hope that you pulled the mixture screws and replaced the gnats-butthole sized o-rings on them, as well as the o-rings on the needle valve seats.

"The tool" is a Motion Pro product, widely available. Chacal (XJ4Ever) carries them, you can even get them off Amazon.

If you saw my "valve adjustment Part Deux", the part number is right there in the third pic: MP 08-0020 http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0020

I about peed myself. The second review on the product page, the guy with two XJs, is me; from '09.

 

NOO!!! The cams have to be loosened EVENLY so that they "lift up" from the head straight across; and they have to be tightened that way as well.

In order to do this you'd need to pull the cam chain tensioner, replace that gasket; and set yourself up for a WHOLE LOT more work (and potential for disaster) and why? Lack of patience? Take the time to rebuild the tach drive gear body; it's GOING to start leaking as soon as you start riding the bike anyway (my 550s went 2 for 2 on that one.) But you will need a couple of parts for that as well: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=19538.html

The "zip-tie" method didn't work because you weren't careful and patient; if you used a piece of #12 insulated house wire as I showed then you would have been able to pull the shims. The problem, just as I illustrated in the how-to, is that you need three hands to push the bucket down, pop the shim, and retrieve the shim. The tool, properly placed, holds the bucket down so you can easily do it with only two hands.

The hunk of wire's still not a recommended method, I showed it to illustrate the concept. But it is also more reliable than trying to use a zip-tie.

You won't need to wait a week for the tool; in the meantime you can slow down and make sure you've been thorough with the carbs.

Don't pull the cams.

 

No don't.
Use the Copper wire method in this thread that BigFitz made:

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=29209.html

Here's some more info that BigFitz put together:

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14827.html

 

Thanks for the advice guys, i am for sure not going to touch the cams, i also figured out why the wire method didnt work, i was using automotive wire that has strands not a house wire that is solid, I will reatempt it today and see what happens.

 

do29,

Listen.... you said you are an ASE certified tech. So, assuming that is indeed the case, you should know that certain things need to be done a certain way, the RIGHT way, and no shortcuts.

So........please listen to what is being told to you, do it THAT way. Be anal about that, and don't try to find a shortcut. Your bike needs a lot of stuff done, and we're trying to help you do it in a proper manner.

Listen to Fitz........he's giving you the correct stuff.

Dave F

 

Ok the carbs are clean, i bench synced them and used clear line to check the level of the floats everything there is good so i put them back on the bike. I retried the wire technique and it worked this time, i was able to swith the 1 and 4 shims to get atlest clearence on all of the exhaust valves.

I understand that i need to fix the clearences on the valves before i will get any sort of good running bike.

I WILL REPEAT I AM GOING TO FIX THE CLEARENCES ASAP. I have a tool on order so that i can properly pull out the shims so that i can see shat size they are and replace them and get everything in spec. I repeat i will fix them once i get the the propper tool.

I do not feel that the problem is mechanical in the engine itself, I am now able to get it to run for about a second and then it dies.

Today i was able to get the bike to run for about a second, and i figured out a patern to what makes it run.



If i remove the spark plug wires and crank for a few seconds, then reconnect the wires and crank again it fires for a second. At first i thought that it was to lean, and needed fuel to build up before it could fire, but after countless adjustments from rich to lean, based on the look of the plugs, it would still do the same thing regardless of the mixture.

I am begining to think that it is a problem related to spark, The could ohm out good on both the primary and secondary side, 13k and 2-3k, but i am wondering if they are breaking down under stress.

Has anyone seen a problem like this before with these bikes?

Is there any good way to “stress test” the coils?

Any other ideas?

 

yeah..... try to find someone near you who would be willing to let you swap coils for a few minutes to see if a KNOWN good set makes any difference. Where are you located?

question.....if you pull all four plugs and put a squirt of gasoline in each cylinder would it make any difference for how long it runs? That would tell you a little more about whether it's fuel or spark related.

Dave Fox

 

I had the cols tested today at the yamaha dealer they are good, I started a new thread to see if people have seen this problem before.

Also i have gone from rich to lean on fuel, based on pulling and looking at plugs, so fuel in the cylenday does not effect the problem.

 

Starting a new thread won't help as long as you continue to refuse to follow the advice we've given you here.

GET YOUR VALVES IN SPEC. Work through the other items we told you to check.

It's not a matter of a "good running" bike. It's NOT GONNA RUN PERIOD until you do; you're just beating your head against the wall.

And wasting our time. I for one am tired of typing. Report back when you've actually followed some of the advice we've already given you.

 

Valves in spec, compression test.

 

ok guys i have gottent he shims out and recorded the numbers off of them.

I then got out my handy chart and calculated what shims i need.

Earlier in the week i had swithed exhaust shims 1 and 4 to ao that i could get a number on the number 1 that had no clearence.

(Cylender) (Measured spec) (Shim number) (Shim needed)

Intake
1 .152 265 in spec
2 .102 270 265
3 .178 260 265
4 .152 265 in spec

Exhaust
1 .127 265 260
2 .076 270 260
3 ,102 270 260
4 .127 275 270

I need to get
3 260's
2 265's
1 270

I will also be removing one of each so i only will need
2 260's
1 265

Can someone please tell me if all this is right, and where is the best place to get these shims?


Another thing that i noticed today was if i spin the crank backward it started jumping teeth on the crank, wooooops, had to jump enough teeth to bring it back into timing and then adjusted the tentioner as it calls for in the service manual, now there is hardly any slack in the chain, but when i check the timing it seems that the t mark is about a degree or two past the mark when the cams are perfectly lined up is this normal or is my chain stretched too much?

 

-Your numbers look good; keep an eye on intake #3; it shouldn't be loosening so there may be something else going on;

-The best place for shims or any parts is XJ4Ever; click the logo/link in the site banner at upper right, PM member chacal of send an email to "info AT Xj4Ever DOT com" or see the catalog in the "XJ4Ever-Supporting Vendor" forum.

-It sounds like you might still have the cams out of time if it was jumping teeth. Be really careful rotating the motor if the cam timing is off; these are "interference" engines and you could easily bend a valve or four.

GET A SERVICE MANUAL and re-check that cam timing.

 

I don't know where the notion that you need to have Valves Adjusted before doing a Compression Test originated.

The Compression Test determines if you should even bother with Valve Adjustments.

The results of the Compression Test lets you know if the Engine is in a Condition that will allow the Motor to run.
The Compression Test will provide you with sufficient information to warrant attempting to correct a Borderline Low Compression Value by adjusting the Valves.

Severely Low Compression Values which are improved upon during a "Wet Test" confirm Piston and Cylinder-related problems that are not related to Valve Adjustments.

It won't matter if the Valves on the Hole are perfectly adjusted.
You got trouble; elsewhere.

 

In a Ford V-8 maybe. It's not a "notion" it's the factory-recommended practice.

Tight valves in an XJ motor can and will significantly throw off compression readings. I've seen it many times. No, it won't cause one pot to only make 30 while the others are at 130, but it CAN make a difference. A couple of zero-lash valves can seriously drop compression, as can a STUCK valve. And quite often, a stuck valve is easily detected by checking clearances.

 

It may be what's written down in the book.
It most certainly is NOT the practice.

When a Bike with a Tuning, Running or Starting issue is brought-into the workshop area and the Work Order presented to the Tech assigned to the job, the FIRST thing done is a Compression Test.

The Numbers are recorded and written-down on the back of the Work Order.
Those numbers are a determining factor for what to do next.

The TEST determines if the Bike is going to get worked-on at all.

If the TEST concludes there is a problem.
The Numbers are BAD.
Unrelated to Valves after diagnosis.
The Service Writer, Foreman, Lead Tech or Line Tech would have to notify the owner that considerably MORE than Maintenance and Tuning is necessary.

Adjusting the Valves would be just a waste of time.

The Book is written with the presumption that there are no pre-existing conditions preventing the commencement of regularly scheduled maintenance.
An assumption the passage of three decades of of time has rendered inapplicable.