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Need some help on my xj650, not starting anymore.

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Ryan95446, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    So my bike has been sitting for about 4-6 months now due to having a flat tire and here in the North bay Santa Rosa ca area has been nice weather so i decided to take off the back tire and go get it changed. I took of the tire put some gas in the tank to make sure it would still start since i haven't started it for awhile, it took awhile for it to start but finally did. I noticed i had a leak in my gas tank due to some rust holes so I turned off the bike. Today I got the new tire on the bike, drained the gas tank fixed the holes, put gas in the tank and now it won't start at all.. All it is doing now is back firing out of the right exhaust pipe.


    Any words of advice or help is much appreciated.

    Thanks again.

    -Ryan
     
  2. bobbytheblack

    bobbytheblack Member

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    Sounds like you might need you carbs cleaned, as mine sat for about the same time and that was my issue. I just drained the carbs of gas and let it chill for a day, while the battery recharged, refueled her and I was off.
     
  3. Kaya

    Kaya Member

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    Did you clean the petcock and fuel filter? Are they plugged?

    It does get gas to the carbs right? I would try a shot of starter fluid and see if you cant get her running with some assistance.

    If all else fails, I would be willing to bet some of that rust got into your carbs and they would need a cleaning.


    -Kaya
     
  4. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Test for Spark.
    See if it will pop on Starting Fluid.

    Jostling the Tank might have sent particulate into the System.
    You have a long list of possibilities.
    PLUS, ... the chance of "Multiple issues".

    Clogged Petcock Screen
    Malfunctioning Petcock
    Debris fouling Petcock Tower
    Tower not in place
    Failed Vacuum Valve
    Bad Fuse Panel
    Weak Coils
    Fouled Plugs
    Particulate in Fuel Gallery
    Beeny Screens
    Carbs Need Cleaning

    Shut the Fuel OFF
    Remove the No.-1 Fuel Bowl Drain
    Collect the Fuel
    Wipe as far as you can reach-in with a Q-Tip.

    See if you got stuff in the Bowls.
     
  5. boostenlebaron

    boostenlebaron Member

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    Id clean or change the plugs real quick and go from there.
     
  6. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    So I went out and bought new Spark plugs, I tested each of them to make sure they all get spark. While i was testing for spark I got a backfire out of the cylinder... I'm going to try with starter fluid and see if that will give it a kick or not... If that doesn't work then looks like I will take out the carbs..

    Any other ideas guys?

    EDIT:

    Took out the spark plugs and took a BBQ lighter and light down in the cylinders left side had nothing in them, ( not sure the order ) The inner right side had a ton a really made a flame got some of my arm hair... cleaned the new plugs stuck them back in and gave it a shot of starter fluid and no kick at all.... Should I start taking apart the carbs now? lol.. Seems like it is a Timing problem but I never changed anything having to do with the timing, unless some how when i changed the back tire i messed it up??
     
  7. ZaGhost

    ZaGhost Member

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    If it was sitting 4-6 months, and no stabilizer in the gas, I'd pull the carbs and give them a good cleaning.....
     
  8. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    So just took the carbs off, drained the gas that was in there, looked fine to me. Put them back on tried to start it was just turning over for awhile then eventually back fired again...

    Ideas?
     
  9. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Was told by an old friend who worked on bikes for awhile and he said that i might have moisture in my points.. So im going to check that next as soon as i get an impact driver..
     
  10. pbjman

    pbjman Member

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    You don't have points, it is an electronic ignition system with a TCI box and a pick-up stator. Someone mentioned the fusebox, do you still have the original box with glass-type fuses? They go bad! Must change.
     
  11. boostenlebaron

    boostenlebaron Member

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    Are your plug wires in the right order? Its not points since you dont have any. I doubt its carbs since its not starting on fluid, they maybe bad but the starter fluid doesnt care. Id check the fuses but i doubt thats it as well.

    Can you check compression?
     
  12. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Yes I still have the original fuse box on there. I will be sure to change that out.. The person who mentioned about the point system i told him that it was a magneto and he told me to spray some WD-40 in there because he said it sounds to him as if there is moisture in there.

    The plug wires are in order.. the inner ones doesn't even reach the outside plugs..

    I can't check compression no... Unless there is some kind of home made tool that i can use to check it with lol
     
  13. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    If, ... it was running 6 months ago and now it won't rip; chances are that it has to do with the Carbs.
    Although, jostling that Tank around might have had something to do with it.

    I had a few folks ... "Confuse" what the two lines to the Petcock are and where they go!

    But, we have arrived at the point where there stuff on the bike that become more trouble that they are worth, ... causing headaches and running problems and need to be -- replaced.
    Not with a used part as old as the one that's acting-up.
    New.
    Trouble free.

    Fuse Panels. Probably head the list.
    Petcocks, Brake Lines and Caliper Seals.
    Shocks.
    I'd add Coils and Wires to the ever-growing list, too.

    You don't need to do these things all at once.
    Then, there's the stuff to do that just goes along with owning a bike.

    If you get 'er running, ... Install an INLINE Filter.
    Staying ahead of needing to pull the Carbs is worth 3-Bucks.
     
  14. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    There is already an Inline filter so thats how i know which tube went where lol.. I'm just going to take it to my buddies shop and check the timing on it, and more then likely just take out the whole motor and do a quick check up on it.
     
  15. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    You can do all the checks with the mill in the frame, timing doesn't alter unless the timing chain is slack enough to jump a tooth.
     
  16. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Well he said that his friend had an older yamaha 4 Cyl like this one and he said his friends bike was doing the same thing mine is, but he said his friends timing chain broke.. So im going to pull off the valve cover and check that if that looks good then im going to fulling take apart the carbs and give them a good cleaning.
     
  17. fintip

    fintip Member

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    I'm no expert, but I've a *lot* of the material on here, and as much as people like to bring up the timing as a suspect, I don't recall timing having EVER been an issue. These bikes have a self-adjusting timing chain, if I'm not confusing parts. I doubt it's that.

    That being said, I understand why you'd think that: backfiring has only two causes I know, which is fuel that is too-low octane pre-igniting, and timing problems. The fuel in the cylinder sounds like a dead giveaway to support it as well. Maybe the WD-40 might help after all, though... Honestly, now that I think about it, I don't recall seeing 'backfiring' as a common problem either.

    But something doesn't feel right. Are you sure all your cylinders are attempting to turn over?

    Those carbs are touchy, and they could almost certainly use some TLC (good thing you had the inline filter, but it won't stop varnish and gunky fuel), but I agree that it doesn't sound like it's the whole problem.

    You can 'rent' a compression tool and use it in the parkinglot at autozone, btw, and that'd be a good thing to do. It's just a little pressure gauge that screws in to the spark plug hole, if I understand right. (Never used one myself, but they come up on this forum a lot. They're also very often inaccurate, so try and use two if your results are fishy. The capacity of the hose itself seems to often make a difference.)

    Wish you the best. Keep trying, I want to find out what it is.
     
  18. TIMEtoRIDE

    TIMEtoRIDE Active Member

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    That's not cleaning the carbs !!

    Get those carbs "To Church" then tell us how it runs.
     
  19. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    I will clean the carbs first before I take out the whole entire motor. Then after I clean them I'll try to get it to start again. But even if the carbs aren't working properly shouldn't it still kick over on Starter Fluid?
     
  20. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Starter Fluid is a "Quik-Test" for Fuel Supply related issues.
    If it runs on Starter Fluid and quits when the Fluid Boost is halted, ... we narrow the troubleshooting to Carbs and everything "Fuel Supply" related.

    Six months is a long sit.
    The thing to do BEFORE the Season gets rolling and you're not enjoying the good times is to jump on it and tune it right up.

    Drain the Tank and Flush it.
    Remove the Petcock and Inspect it.
    Remove the Carbs and Clean them.
    Spex-check everything.
    Get the whole system performing at its best.

    Get it tuned so nice that when you hit the Start Button, ... the Engine's running before your thumb releases pressure on the Go-Button.
     
  21. tumbleweed_biff

    tumbleweed_biff Active Member

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    You say you fixed the leak in the tank? How?

    What did you do about the rust inside of it? Have you taken the petcock apart and checked it over?

    I am wondering if you have something blocking fuel flow ... If you drain the carb bowls and then switch the petcock to PRIME, can you see fuel moving through the fuel filter?

    What does this tell you? 1&2 are not getting fuel, 3 is flooded out, and you don't mention 4. Spark plug in 3 is almost certainly ruined if it got wet, as are any others that got wet.

    Your carbs are ABSOLUTELY fouled (not that there couldn't be other issues). No question about it. Search for "church of clean" and follow the directions (unless you want to pay a shop $300 to do it and they probably won't do it right ...)

    When you say "no kick at all", exactly what do you mean? Did the starter crank? etc.
     
  22. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    So for shits and giggles yesterday I went out to just try to start it after sitting for a day.. And well it started so i took it out for a ride ( about 10 min ) brought it back when I was back it up to put it back into the parking spot i have it died on me and wouldn't restart.. haven't tried to start it today yet, going to try to do that in a few minutes..

    EDIT: Fired right up again, but after awhile it dies ( I think one of the carbs are flooding it out... ) so im going to buy some carb cleaner stuff to put in the gas tank to run it through and if that doesn't work then I will have to take apart the carbs again and give them a good "Church clean".
     
  23. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    Check the vent in the fuel cap is free.
     
  24. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Already did that, was one of the first things i did.

    Also, bought some Seafoam to put in the gas tank, going to run some of that through tomorrow when i get it started again and see if that helps at all.
     
  25. tumbleweed_biff

    tumbleweed_biff Active Member

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    Hey!
    You said you still have the original fuse box. I am wondering if as things warm up with current flowing through, you are then losing connection? Make replacing the fuse box a priority.
     
  26. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Well i figured that was an idea so what i did temporarily make that out of the equation I made some Jumper wires across to cut out the fuses to make sure that wasn't a possibility.
     
  27. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    BAD idea.
     
  28. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    I took off the jumpers i only did that real short time to rule out the fuses is all.
     
  29. fintip

    fintip Member

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    Bad idea indeed. Fuses are cheap, what they connect often is not. If the fuse went bad, then you don't want to risk the extra electricity that could fry the fuse going to the components themselves.
     
  30. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    The "Intermittent" problem MIGHT be:

    You're running, ... "Off-the-top" of the Battery.

    Test the CHARGING Output.
    You need:
    +14.2 ~ 14.5VDC at the + Side of the Batt. with the Engine making 2,000rpm's or greater.

    +14.2 is the LOW Spec.

    Ck. the Alt. Brushes:
    Pull Alt Cover
    Measure Brushes
    10mm MIN Length
    Less than 10mm = Replace Brushes.
     
  31. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Thanks Rick, I'll check the battery tomorrow when i run the SeaFoam through it too.
     
  32. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    So Rick, i checked the battery levels it was fine...

    it seems as though after the bike is on for about 10-15 min it dies completely and wont start till the next day... Im going to go up there right now and start taking the carbs off the bike again.. QUESTION If i take them out and take the carbs apart will i have to adjust anything when i put them back together??? I dont have any tools to do any adjustments what so ever ... Had to go out and buy an impact drive just so i could take apart some of the bike..
    If anyone is around the Santa Rosa, CA area and would like to give me a hand with this, that would be nice. Or willing to pay for extra help.. Either way let me know.
     
  33. Kwiski

    Kwiski Member

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    Make sure you check the vacuum for the fuel & make sure it is flowing. I just refired mine took off down the road got few minutes out & out goes the bike. No fire. Got it started. ran back to house. as I hit corner at home same thing. Found I left off vacuum line.
     
  34. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    well.. Took apart the Carbs REALLY REALLY Bad >.< Posting some pictures.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  35. mook1al

    mook1al Member

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    It sounds like you might have low float levels and carbs in need of cleaning. Did you happens to turn the petcock valve to prime to see if the bike runs better. If so, when you did, did any of the carbs flood? Put 1/4 fuel line on the carb drains and verify that you have fuel. You say that the bike sat for 4-6 months, how did it run before? You probably just have gummed up carbs with varnish from old gas...
     
  36. mook1al

    mook1al Member

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    Opps...was typing while you posted pics. Definitely need to clean those carbs. That there is lots of rust. Shine a light in your fuel tank, betcha you have a rusted tank. Check tank, Church of clean and whole nine yards, and report back. Good luck.
     
  37. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Well I cleaned the bowls put them the carbs back together attached the gas tank and well.. held down the start button for awhile to just get yet another Back Fire >.<

    Problem is i dont really have the right stuff to be cleaning the carbs nor experience, so i say again if anyone is near the area of Santa Rosa, CA I will pay you to come out here and fix this bike lol... we will just have to discuss the price first..

    anyone take me up on that offer?
     
  38. Kaya

    Kaya Member

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    Its not as bad as you might think.

    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14692.html

    There are little passages all over that rack that need a good cleaning.

    A can of brake cleaner is all you absolutely need. I used brasso on the diaphragm pistons. Just be sure to get your rubber parts out of there before you start soaking it down. You really have to break the carbs down. You should be shooting a jet of carb spray out of your enrichment circuit. (that passage is in your float bowl)

    Take your time and youll be fine. Do it the right way, and do it once. Do it the wrong way, and youll be super familiar with your carbs in no time at all.

    -Kaya
     
  39. tumbleweed_biff

    tumbleweed_biff Active Member

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    Search for the thread "Church of Clean". You can do it, really. I'm not in CA or I'd take you up on it as I need the money. <grin> For wires and such to clean out those really small ports, guitar strings work great! Another way to work on cleaning out those little ports is a compressor with a rubber tip which will allow you to seal against the hole and then blast a 90psi burst of air through there ... Follow that up with brake cleaner to remove any deposits. And yeah, use brake cleaner, not carb cleaner. Same thing basically, but more concentrated/efficient. One of the things I tried once with good success was boiling the fully disassembled carb in lemon juice (removing all the rubber, of course). After that, rinse with water and *immediately* dunk in WD40 to get rid of all water residue. Allow to dry, reassemble. Pay careful not to the sides, make sure they pass the "thunk" test. If they don't polish them with some really fine sand paper. Something like 2000 grit, I believe is what is recommended.Probably a good idea to polish all the brass like this before rebuilding. Get them looking brand, spanking new.
     
  40. tumbleweed_biff

    tumbleweed_biff Active Member

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    You don't need a lot of special tools. It is almost entirely screw drivers (philips and flat head) and sockets or wrenches. I wish I could help, but it is a 2000 mile commute ...

    With all that rust in the bowls, you absolutely need an inline fuel filter and you really should clean/seal the tank. Odds are your petcock isn't all that happy either. Phosphoric acid will react nicely with the rust and convert it to a grey seal on the metal. This is the same acid in your Coca cola. It is also the same acid as is in Naval Jelly. You just want a higher concentration. Check your home construction supplies store. I found it as "Concrete Etcher". If the rust is light surface stuff, pour that in and let it sit on all surfaces till the rust turns grey. If you have larger/deeper rust, you really want to remove that by putting some sort of media in the tank and then shaking the heck out of it. (I suspect the latter given what you have in the carb bowls ...) Some have mentioned using nuts and bolts for this purpose. I didn't have to. The one I did was all light surface rust and the phosphoric acid did the trick nicely. Once all the big rust is off, then you can do the phosphoric acid and/or use a tank sealant. I personally recommend POR15 and believe it to be a much superior product to Kream and its competitors (POR15.com). It doesn't just coat the surfaces, it actually forms a chemical bond with the metal, completely sealing it.
     
  41. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Just got done with the "Church of clean!" Shoulda seen all the shit that came out of the carbs! it was crazy lol... anyways, I'm going to be putting them back on the bike soon, Wish me luck and hopefully that will fix the problem.
     
  42. tumbleweed_biff

    tumbleweed_biff Active Member

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    Best of luck. Don't forget to deal with the source of the rust though, or else you'll be right back where you started in no time at all.
     
  43. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    So just put it back together.. Still back fired on me =\
     
  44. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    Well cleaned out the petcock, gas tank lid, still backfiring, I was looking at the carbs some more and noticed that the rubber mounts for the Carbs that goes into the motor is cracked, Anyone know a site where i can order 4x of these?

    (I dont need the ones that go from the intake i need the other side from Carbs to motor )
     
  45. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    +++ ::: WARNING ::: +++

    Be VERY careful.
    Replacing Intake Manifolds can become a Horror Story with the SNAP of a Seized Fastener.

    The Allen Cap Screws holding the Intake Manifolds to the Head are as SOFT as a marshmallow.

    Galvanic Seizure renders them virtually un-removable.
    The Bolt ACTS like its moving.
    Its often NOT turning-out ... but rather TWISTING in place.

    Then, ... It snaps without warning.

    Read some threads about Manifold REPAIR.
     
  46. Ryan95446

    Ryan95446 New Member

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    cool thanks, just been trying to find a site to order these from, anyone know of a good place to go?
     
  47. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

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    PM CHACAL (Len). XJ4ever is pretty much the only place i get parts from (other than screws etc). He takes care of all of us. best prices I've found too.
     

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