Starting Problem, Maybe Sprag Clutch?

Hello everyone... I am new to the group. I just purchased a 1981 Maxim 550 and the bike was running great. The carb was recently worked on and synched and the valves were checked and everything seemed fine. I have put about 100 miles on it since buying it and today I rode it to work and back (about 7 miles each way), stopped at 7 Eleven near my house and shut the bike off. I was only in the store a couple of minutes and when I tried to leave, the bike wouldn't start. The starter spins but the engine doesn't turn over. I pushed it home, cursing all the way, and began trying to troubleshoot. I work on cars some but have never worked on a bike. Given my symptoms, normally on a car or truck I might have a bad starter or a broken timing chain. Either the bendix gear isn't engaging or the chain or belt is broke and thus the engine doesn't turn over. In this case, I assume the setup is a bit different. I removed the starter and it visually seems fine. I energized it and it spins with no problem. The gear just inside the housing where the starter fits was initially a bit loose. Could there be other problems than the starter? What should be my next move? I am assuming something is broken or maybe just loose but I am still getting to know this bike and would like to avoid any unneeded steps. The starter spins just fine and the bike will start when bumped. If anyone has any suggestions I would greatly appreciate them.

 

Step one before ANYTHING else...what is the state of your battery? Is it 100%? and I mean 100% Welcome to the circus by the way

 

Yep... 12.51 volts

 

Did you do an oil change and use either a non-motorcycle specific oil or a synthetic oil?

That can give these symptoms. Do a change to non-synthetic motorcycle oil and see if it clears up would be my first step after checking the battery.

 

Get your battery fully charged and then take it to Autozone and have it load tested, then you will know if it is 100%. Might not be your problem anyway, I haven't had starter issues yet.
If your bike is running well and was already warmed up, it might have been easy to push-start it!

 

The oil was changed not long before I got the bike with motorcycle oil. (conventional, not syn.) The battery is definitely not the problem, nor is the starter. Something has failed between the starter and motor. I bump started it this morning and was going to ride it to work to change the oil and hoped that would help. I got about a mile down the road and was hearing some clanking sounds in first and seccond gear when downshifting coming to a stop. I took it back home and parked it. I guess I'll have to split the cases and see whats going on in there because something has broken or come loose. Anyone with ideas, suggestions, etc, please share them. I really appreciate everyones time!

 

Don't split the cases (yet.)

The first place to look would be in the clutch housing.

 

I'm going to start with the clutch housing but do you think that could reveal the problem with starting? Everything I have read leads to the sprag clutch or the gear between that and the starter. And it would seem that the only right way to repair that is to split the cases. I will update after I pull the clutch cover.

 

You are correct, IF the problem turns out to be the sprag clutch.

If it does, it will be the first time I've heard of that failure on a 550.

While it is always a possibility, I'm simply suggesting based on historical evidence that you might want to exhaust all the other possibilities first. And poorly cared-for clutches have been known to break apart in some interesting ways; THAT one we have seen numerous times.

Work your way from the easiest possible solution toward the most drastic. Start with the clutch; that's what the starter engages to spin the transmission.

 

I pulled the clutch cover and there is no evidence of damage. No broken metal, shavings, etc. Should I pull the clutch? How do I go about it? There are I think 5 bolts in the face of it and a loose shaft in the center with grooves on one side. The bolts have springs behind them and I assume they hold the clutch plates together. What would be your next move? Thanks again for your time

 

No problem.

Yes, I would disassemble the clutch, but leave the hub and basket in place; then shield the area with a rag (oil fling) and spin the starter which should spin the clutch basket. (Be sure to unplug the TCI we don't want the bike to start.)

Doing that should help diagnose the issue.

Clutch: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=29541.html

 

Clutch removed... I removed the hub and basket before reading this. When I slid them off, a curved metal "arm" fell from the top behind them. Not sure what that is or where exactly it fell from. The motor is currently in my basement with no starter, carbs, etc attached so its not gonna start. I can try turning the gear that the starter contacts to see if anything happens on the clutch side. One other point to make that I may not have said earlier... When I originally started looking into this problem, I removed the starter to see if it had any damage and there was none. But when I looked through the case at the gear the starter contacts, it was loose. I could move it with my hand. When I touched it, it moved slightly down and to the left and became lodged in place and I was unable to wiggle it anymore. Does that tell you anything? I just assumed that meant there was something loose or broken deeper inside.

 

I found the problem!! when I pulled the clutch assembly out, the little arm that fell used to have 2 allen head screws in it. They came out which allowed the bracket or arm to fall out of place. This is what holds a pin in which centers the gear that the starter spins. Sorry I don't know the proper name for all these parts. I fished out 1 of the screws from the oil pan and I will probably have to pull it to find the other one. I'm just so excited thats all it was and I don't have to split the cases or spend a ton of money! All I should need is some locktite. Going forward I do need a little more help. When removing the clutch, I did spin the clutch shaft. Did that affect anything else like timing that needs to be reset. Maybe a stupid question but I want to be sure I don't need someone else to correct that before I put it all back together and back on the bike. Thanks again!

 

There's no "timing" involved, you're good there.

And no need to split the cases after all.

I would really like to know what "arm" you're talking about, though. This is a 550, right? Chain driven?

Be sure to PRE-READ my clutch article I posted the link to; there are some "peculiarities" to assembling the clutch that you'll need to pay attention to.

 

Yes, it is a 550 and chain driven. When the starter goes in, it spins an idler gear? Whatever you call that gear, it is centered and held in place by a pin. This pin is visible when the clutch is removed. It is near the top left of the case and is about 4 inches long or so and probably around 1/4 to 1/2 inche diameter. In the upper right hand corner is a gear that is connected to the generator. Just below that are two holes about 3 inches apart. This "arm" bolts up there and is there for the sole purpose of holding that pin in place I guess. Point is, the screws came out, arm fell down, pin receded back toward the clutch letting the gear on the starter side slide down just enough to no longer be in contact with the starter gear. Sorry again, I don't konw what all the right names are but thats as descriptive as I can be. I can show a picture of it if I can figure out how to upload them to here.

 

I will review your thread about the clutch. Thank you very much

 

So I fished both the fallen screws out of the oil pan without removing it. Everything is back together, just gotta go get a torque wrench tomorrow so I can torque the pressure plate bolts. Then the cover's goin back on and this baby's ready to put back on the frame. Cross my fingers that everything will be fine. I'm pretty confident that it will be but I will be needing to rebuild the clutch soon as I saw some wear that I would like to correct. However that is not my main concern right now as the bike was running and shifting fine. When I do, I guess I'll contact Len. Who is Len and how do I order parts? Is there a website? Sorry, I've just been so back and forth between the motor and the computer and just paying attention to the technical details that I haven't had any time to search for parts. Anyways, here is a link to some pics of this ordeal. This one is the "arm" or bracket or whatever you call it that I was talking about... http://www.4shared.com/photo/oW3M7ljQ/2 ... 7_486.html It is the black, half mooned shaped bracket with two screws in it just below the gear that is on the generator shaft at the top right

 

As I looked at this I was a little disturbed. 31 years of build up! Someone recently worked on the carb but there was apparently no cleaning involved here. Anyone have any ideas/procedures? www.4shared.com/photo/T_NU0cBy/2012-04- ... 7_590.html

 

How many miles on this bike? It's gonna need more than a clutch, trust me.

The Len you are referring to is forum member chacal, proprietor of XJ4Ever, our resident parts source.

Click the logo/link in the site banner at upper right, PM member chacal, or send an email to "info AT XJ4Ever DOT com."

Carb cleaning: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14692.html

Mikuni breakdown: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31061.html

Valve clearance adjustment: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14827.html

 

The original odometer was broken and replaced buy the guy I bought it from. It reads just under 17,000 mi. No idea how many miles were put on it since it broke. The bike was running great until the starter issue. The carb was recently worked on and a new jet installed, valve clearence checked, etc. All were ok. Now another problem... I had everything back together and went and bought a torque wrench to finish the clutch up and bammm! The first clutch bolt I torqued snapped. WHY?? I don't know, could have been a faulty torque wrench (even though its brand new) or just a 31 year old bolt. Anyway now I'm screwed! I was planning on redoing the clutch later once I got passed this starter problem but not right now since the bike was shifting fine. Now I guess I'll have to since there's 3/4's of a screw stuck in the boss.

 

That screw should come right out once you pop the pressure plate back off and get a grip on what's left.

How tight did you torque it? They only go 5.8 FOOT pounds on the 550s; I use my inch-pound torque wrench which is still only 69 inch-pounds.

I would recommend new, factory bolts and washers; quite often somebody has done a "fastener substitution" with incorrect bolts.

When you rebuild it, use new springs too.

 

Well it only took me about 4 hours and a bunch of gas in my truck to get back to where I started yesterday morning. The problem wasn't me, it was a faulty torque wrench I was trusting would be able to atleast work 1 time since it was brand new and had just bought it that morning. After breaking the screw and being devestated, I tested it on a much bigger bolt that I knew it was going to break. And sure enough, it never clicked. Even with the torque turned almost all the way down to 5 ft lbs. It was basically a long handled 3/8 drive ratchet. So I went back to Harbor Freight and got a replacement. I went ahead and opted for the quarter inch drive that worked in inch-pounds. Of course I tested this one on a bolt in a piece of wood first to make sure it was atleast going to click. So after 2 hardware stores, lowe's, and advance auto parts, I finally got back home with an easy out and some replacement bolts. The ones I removed, by the way, were correct based on how hard it was to find them. The were flanged bolts, not just plain hex head like you found in yours. So everything is back together and torqued properly and now I'm ready to lug the thing back outside to reinstall on the frame. I just hope everything works properly. I'll order the parts for the clutch rebuild in a couple of weeks. Thanks again for all the help

 

The bike is all back together and I got a whole new set of problems electrically. When I first put the key back in and turned it to run, I got nothing. The tail lights were burning but no headlight, no neutral indicator light, no power to the starter. I charged the battery and then tested it so its not that. after a few minutes, I heard the relay click and bam, neutral indicator was on and when I hit the starter button it tried for half a second and then off again like it died. It sounded like it had power and then all of the sudden it didn't. Like a loose connection or a fuse blew. I turned it off and back on and it sat there not doing anything but I still had tail lights allthough when the brake was applied, the lights went out instead of getting brighter. So I start taking the seat back off and gaining access to the wiring to see if I missed something or if one of the wires was loose and found then nothing. Then magically again the relay clicked and power was back up. I got it started finally and it sat there and ran for about 5 minutes while I continued looking through the wiring (choke still on) and everything seemed fine (headlight burning bright, tail and brake lights and turns working) but then it died again. I took the sprocket cover off from the left side to see if maybe I had pinched the wires or something coming from the generator causing an unwanted ground but didn't really find anything wrong. Now I'm getting power everytime I turn the key and the engine is turning over but it won't start and still no power to the headlight. Does the headlight get its power from the stator or generator and could I have messed something up there? So very irritated!

 

The headlight will not come on until the motor is running. I would start by checking all of your grounds, connections at the battery, starter solenoid and starter. Make sure they are clean and tight. Also, check the connection to your sidestand safety switch.

 

If the Starter Motor is Cranking-over the Engine and you have a NO START Situation, ...
TEST for SPARK
Pull the 4 Cap and use a Spare Plug.
Ground it and try-it.

If you have SPARK, ...
Try a Starting Fluid Test.

POP / No POP.
Wants to go. Fuel Supply related.
Dead. Likely IGN Related.

Most common Gremlins.
Out of Gas
Stock Fuse Panel
Coils
Incorrect Relays

 

Well the electrical problem magically fixed itself. Now, everytime I turn the key, everything works as it is supposed to. I was trying to start it and it fired up a few times but didn't want to run and when I tried to give it throttle, it would die. The gas was low but should have been plenty to run. I talked to a guy with much more knowledge than me and he said to put more gas in it and/or drain the bowls on the carb. I told him it sounded like it was starving for fuel. I put more gas in it and bam! It fired up and I ran it around the block with no problems. I shut it off and started it back up and it fired right away. I hope for now that the problems are all behind me. It actually shifts better and smoother than it did before. I am still gonna rebuild the clutch but for now it will do the job. Thanks again to everyone who helped, I really appreciate your time.

 

Is your fuse-box the original glass fuse type? Have you pulled apart all your connections and cleaned them?

My 550 was behaving similarly so I went through the entire electrical. I cleaned all the connections, made sure to expose good metal, and coated with dielectric. Some of the connections were packed with dust, dirt or whatever. My running voltage went up 15% and it starts much easier. And the original fuse box is known to be faulty. You can get a replacement from XJ4Ever.

Good job on diagnosing and fixing your starter issue.