Uh Oh... Electrical problem...

So I was coming back from a 125-150km ride with no problem at all when, right before I get home I hear a tack and boom, no more flashers, stop light or tachometer (well actually that still works when I'm not trying to activate the non-working lights).

Checked the fuses and they're all good. Looked in my Haynes manual, no description of such an issue... Anyone has a clue?

 

Wow that sounds weird. Check the running voltage. Should be around 14V above 3000 PM. If it's much more than that, the regulator/rectifier went bad. Check the bulbs to see if they burned out. I really don't have a clue, just throwin suggestions out there-good luck.

 

I don't really understand how I'm supposed to test that :S. The Haynes manual doesn't explain it very well and I'd rather not just poke around with electricity...

 

Checking running V is easy. You need a multimeter and remove the side cover so you can access the battery. Rev the motor over 2k while you put your leads on the battery terminals. Should read 14.4V or so.

What is your bike? You can put it in your signature line and turn on your location feature in case there's a member near you who can help.

 

And don't be afraid to "poke around with electricity," just know how to do it right. Probing with a volt meter (or multi-meter set on VDC setting) is VERY safe, you won't hurt anything at all.

That is really the ONLY way to test voltage, actually using a meter, and if you have it on the correct settings, it can't be anything other than enlightening.

The nice thing about electricity is that it acts in VERY predictable ways. Troubleshooting needs to be methodical to be fruitful.

Did the engine cut out too, or was it just the lights? Did you test your fuses? Check for 12V on both sides? Glass or blade fuses?

What is the voltage on your battery (if it's low, then you charging system is at faulty, but if it's topped off, it's likely something else).

Does your headlight/starting circuit/ignition work? How did you,"try to activate the non-working lights?"

 

So I tested the battery and I'm getting 14.4 or .5 or close enough I think.

I got some pictures of the fuse box, the connexions in the light, the connexions under the tank and the rectifier. They're not the highest quality because I couldn't find my camera, so these are itouch photos. What kind of fuses are these?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/issviqgeg5qd8c3/IVsZLsCOyh

 

Oh yeah, it also still starts and runs fine. The only time I had a hard time starting here was this morning, but that's because I'd forgotten to reconnect the gas tank .

 

Looking at the wiring diagram for your bike, the Signal (10A) circuit from your fuse box supplies 12V to your signals, neutral light, brake light, tach, and horn.

You have the original fuse box which is likely the culprit. The "ears" that hold the glass fuses in place have a tendency to break, and many (including myself) replace this fuse box with a newer blade style. You can test for voltage at the crimp on each side of the fuse to confirm that the fuse box isn't the problem.

From the pic, it looks like someone has already replaced on fuse with an inline blade style, and I only see two fuses in the box, so you're missing one.

Also, only use the properly rated fuse, 20A main, and 10A for everything else. VERY important.

 

I'll start by replacing the 25 that the first owner put in by a 20 and add the missing 10 and see what happens, then I'll test it to see if it has power while running.

Thanks for the help!

 

What is a 'tack and boom'?

If the bike is running, and you don't have lights, and you are missing a fuse... Maybe your LIGHTS fuse popped out or something? It's either at the LIGHTS fuse or after the fusebox altogether, as you are still getting power to the IGNITION fuse it sounds like.

 

Tack is literally what I heard when the problem started , very similar to a lightbulb burning out. Boom is just me going like BOOM, no more lights, you know, for the drama and all.

I found a grilled relay, could that be the cause of it?

 

Grilled as in cooked??

Could be the symptom of the actual cause, or the cause itself. If you have a short it could've cooked the relay. But relay might have deteriorated on it's own as well.

 

I ordered a new one but won't be getting it for another 2 weeks or so, when I get it, should I put it in and try to run the lights or just look for another possible cause?

 

This is the relay:

Last 2 pictures - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/issviqgeg5qd8c3/IVsZLsCOyh

Had it tested at a Yamaha reseller, they apparently don't have those in stock anymore so I ordered one off ebay.

Edit: Broken link

 

Do you have a wiring diagram for your bike?

If you have one, or can get one (might be a copy on this site, and/or likely a member who can share theirs with you) then you could trace all the wires that plug into that relay back to their source-could do it w/o the diagram but it helps. What you're looking for is any dead shorts like where the insulation has been stripped. Anywhere that a wire can rub or get pinched/crushed etc. is where this is likely to happen. With the diagram you could also asses which terminal on the relay should get +12V, which terminal activates it, which terminal passes the +12V once it's activated etc. and then check those circuits to make sure they have continuity when they should and no power when they shouldn't. That will keep you from frying your new relay. Chances are pretty good that IT was the problem, but better safe than sorry.

Example: I extended my front turn signals outward when I added a 1/4 fairing. I didn't want to spend the $ on new ones so I got two lamp shafts (hollow threaded rods) cut them to length, cut some 1/4" conduit to match the length, painted it all silver metallic, and assembled. Once all back together everything was a bit screwy. Front left light didn't work and the brake light was flashing with the blinkers, after a few seconds it blew the fuse. "Short" I think and then I remembered the lamp shafts and having to screw them into the light fixture (cheap AM plastic base). The right blinker had 6 Ohms resistance, the left .1 Ohms (virtual short). The shaft had sliced the positive wire and was grounding the whole system to the frame!! Yikes. Liquid tape applied and now all good.

 

What is wrong with the relay exactly? Which relay is it? What color wires where connected to it?

I don't think a relay would cause all of your symptoms, because the brown wire, directly off the fuse box, feeds several different components with no relays (iirc, my manual is in the garage now and there's a hurricane out there :evil: )

And have you actually tried to replace the fuse that's missing? There ARE 4 fuses on your bike, and the brown wires in your box look to be missing a fuse, which IS your signal circuit. That circuit provides power to all of the things that aren't working (and doesn't provide power to the things that are).

Now why the fuse blew is another question. If you replace it with a 10A fuse and it blows immediately then you should be looking for a short. But a 30 y/d fuse CAN fail for no reason, and the clips that hold it in place are KNOWN to corrode and fall off. Also, a fuse can "POP" too.

You do need a manual, including the wiring diagram. One way to find a short, if a new fuse does indeed blow, is to connector each connector after the fuse, one-by-one, until is blows again, to locate which segment of wire to look for a short in. You'll need a wiring diagram to do that.

 

Yeah I have the wiring diagram in the haynes manual.

I'm also replacing that fuse, but the thing that surprises me is that if that's the cause of it, I'd have had no problem the rest of the time with a fuse missing? I'd spotted it was missing but since everything seemed to be working I didn't question it.

The relay is one of those metallic 4 pin connectors that connects to a lot of different colored cables, I have no clue what it does, but the garagists told us it wasn't working anymore, so that's to change no matter what hehe, you have a link with a bunch of pictures of it in my previous post of it normally. I have a hard time reading the diagram, but I think it's for the sidestand...

Buying the fuses tomorrow when the hurricane is gone (if the store still stands).

 

If you follow the wiring diagram, you'll see that power is routed from your battery, through the main fuse, up through the ignition, and back down to the fuse box, where it is split between the three other circuits (HEAD, SIGNAL, IGNITION). The signal circuit is giving you the problem.

If you are saying that you noticed the fuse missing before you had any problems, then you are looking for a wiring hack that bypassed the fuse box, or combined it with another circuit.

If you post the color of the wire in the relay connector, it will be easy to identify the relay. Also note the location on the bike. I don't know the relays by their number (but chacal has a relay guide). If the relay is a sidestand relay, it won't cause the problems your are describing, but it might prevent the bike from starting (likely a seperate, non-related issue).

You can always swap out the other 10A glass fuse to check if your signals lights work.

EDIT from chacal's guide:

 

It has 2 reds with a white line a light green (or dirty white) and black with a yellow line.

It's located under the gas tank:



Sorry about the quality, it's kind of dark in there...

 

I still want to know why you suspect THAT relay. All of the relays on these bikes act differently, so if you test them wrong, they won't "pass." I think the Haynes tells you specifically how to test each one.

Again, your original post issue symptoms point to the entire signal circuit not receiving power. I am curious why the relay has entered into the picture at all. It didn't looked "grilled" to me.

 

I brought it to a Yamaha reseller and had it tested there, I took out everything that looked small and removable and had them test it .

So I kept on poking around with my meter and apparently the brown cable going to the tachometer isn't getting any power:



Traced it around and it's connected to the horn (which I just tested and doesn't work) and the missing fuse in my fuse box - I still don't understand how I did without it before and where it's passing now if it's bypassed. Apparently it's the signal fuse... Would it mean that it's got another fuse somewhere that's used as a bypass and would have burnt instead?

It also connects to the main switch, the front brake switch, the flasher relay and the AC generator.

EDIT: The image isn't working so here is the direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16778614/IMG_0476(2).jpg

 

Why do you think that there was never a signal fuse in it's place? The "ears" that hold the glass fuses in place can break off, and the fuse could have fallen out (during your ride). Did you see the fuse box, when everything was working, with ONLY two glass fuses and the one inline blade fuse. Or had you not checked your fusebox before the event?

If there isn't a bypass near the fuse box, then I seriously doubt you'll find one anywhere else on the harness, unless the PO was really creative. I think your fusebox is the culprit. Your really ought to replace the whole fuse box with a blade style, they are way more reliable.

 

What does a bladestyle look like?

Yeah I saw the fuse box before when everything was working, but I don't see the brown wire going to any bypass at all... Which only adds to the mystery.

 

Here is a link to your picture with some paint comments I put on there. What you need to do is just buy a fuse box that has modern style fuses and find your four circuits and wire them correctly. As you can see, somebody was fixing them as they went. "oh, my one fuse holder is gone, I'll just wire one in-line fuse and leave the rest of them on the verge of breaking." That's bush league.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jtid98p5kruh3jc/fuses.jpg

The only problem I see you having is figuring out what was done with that missing circuit. I'm guessing somebody hard-wired the turn signal circuit, completely bypassing the fuse box alltogether. Trace those turn signal wires, from the signals themselves, see if they go somewhere that looks hacked together by an amateur.

 

Alright, I'll go buy myself a fusebox and rewire every back the way it should be.

Thanks a lot guys!

 

Billed,

Glad to see the "light bulb" glowing. Seriously man, from the look of those pictures, which were nicely posted, if you don't correct this now all you're going to end up doing is being frustrated with electrical issues. I can assure you once you get your fusebox and main harness connections tied in correctly you will feel so much better about your bike's electricals. The relay you pointed out under the gas tank is the "Starting Circuit Cut-Off Relay". The wires are (2) R/W=Red/White Stripe, Sb=light blue, B/Y=Black/Yellow Stripe. If you have the Haynes Manual look on page 244 and page 265. Hopes this helps.

Gary