GRRRRR!

I've been here before, bemoaning my fates, describing the problems I've been having, and getting all sorts of suggestions in return. Here's the latest.

Checked the valve clearances, mapped out what shims I had, checked the chart, and decided what I needed. Ran down to the local salvage yard, picked up the two required, moved four more around, and rechecked. Found out something wasn't quite right, as my #1 intake (which had a 280) should have required a 285. Problem was, the feeler gauge wouldn't fit afterwards. Okay, fine -- I stuck my leftover 270 in there, and it was happy. End result -- I have a leftover pair of 285 shims.

Next, I cleaned the valve cover and top part of the head, used some high-temp red RTV I got from the dollar store to hold the new gasket in place (the old one was leaking), put a thin film of oil on the mating surface, and bolted it back on.

Then, I reinstalled the collector/exhaust pipes that I had so painstakingly removed, sanded/wirewheeled and painted with high-temp paint and clearcoat (looked fine before I tried putting the pipes back on... but I digress). Mufflers were next, although I suspect they'll need to be replaced at some point.

Lastly, per Rick's suggestion, all the mixture screws were backed out to 3 full turns. Reinstall the gas tank. Ready to go, right? Hit the button... don't wanna fire. Well, maybe I'll put the battery on the charger for an hour. Let's try again... fired up instantly. Cool! Let's let this thing run for a bit to cure the clearcoat... maybe we'll take it for a ride tomorrow. What's that? It stumbles when I hit the throttle? Okay, no riding today. We'll work on it tomorrow. Let's stick in our homemade YICS tool and throw Mr. Colortune at it. Boy, they weren't kidding about that arcing problem. Can't really tell, but I *think* it's okay... #1 was a nice blue, with some orange flashes, but I think the others were a wee bit darker. Let's try fiddling with the mixture screws again... won't idle? Keeps dying when I add throttle, no matter where I set the mixture screws? And I almost broke my blasted colortune trying to get it out of the #3 cylinder? Oh, and what's this I see... the water level's low on my battery.

<insert profanity-laced tirade here> :evil:

Okay. Looks like I'm pulling the freaking carbs back off. First, make sure the butterfly valves are aligned and positioned properly via the idle set screw and sync screws. (That's one hole completely visible, yes?) Next, try and figure out how to double-check the float levels. Easy to do with a workmate-type setup... which I don't have. And, the battery's been removed, topped off with distilled water and hooked up to the trickle charger.

Anything else I missed?

 

Sounds like you might have forgotten to sit down with a beer afterwards

 

Heh. Maybe I should get the BIKE drunk.

<starts looking for some gas/ethanol mix>

 

Now there would be a sight!
Dark night, lonely road.
Officer approaches
"Evening, licence and registration."
"You were weaving about in a dangerous fashion, had anything to drink?"
"Your bike is drunk? Now I've heard it all."
"Ethenol? Budwiser? Hold on there."
"I'm sorry but I've got to take you both in,
you for being crazy and the bike for being under the influence."

 

Okay. Now I'm pissed.

As mentioned in another thread, the carbs were removed, and the butterflies were visibly synced together so that the bypass hole is visible. (The diagram doesn't show that second hole behind it.) The float bowls were removed, valve tangs were tweaked, and levels set -- fuel comes up right to the edge of the "carburetor mixing body" (as the service manual calls it). One of the levers on the shaft that lifts up the starter plunger was tweaked a bit so that it lifted its plunger at the same time the other ones were.

With no small amount of effort, the carbs were reinstalled. Cables were rerouted, and the clutch cable lubed while I had the opportunity. (My choke cable needs to be replaced... but I digress.) Pilot mixture screws are still sitting at 3 turns out. I put in the key, turn it on, hit the starter button... and no dice. This time the bike won't even fire. It'll crank like mad, but it won't start.

I am NOT a happy camper.

 

Possible your not getting a spark at this point? Given the area your working in, a relay could have been disconnected or some other issue. Kill switch maybe?
If you are close enough, I could be persuaded to pop by.

 

Thought of kill switch immediately, thought of spark. Kill switch is fine, I can check spark.

On the lighter side, when I got home I was smelling gas as I walked up to the house. Turns out I'd left the petcock on prime when I left for work. What's good about it is that there was only a small spot of gas on the ground, and the tank wasn't empty. Of course, I'll probably want to pull the plugs and cycle the engine a few times to make sure it's not flooded.

You're closer than most, but not that close. Thanks for the offer, though.

 

ColorTune sent me a "New and Improved" attachment lead, when I wrote to them complaining about the Original.

It has a thicker coating of Vinyl on the lead. My guess is that you can accomplish the same result by adding a layer or two of vinyl electrical tape to the lead to reduce arcing.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Beware of sub-conscience complacency. Unbuttoning the tank and carbs, a few times, going back over what you had done just a short while before ... often gets the hands doing things that are ahead of the thought process.

Unplugging an electrical lead ... or, yanking-out the rack of carbs might have snagged a connection or left one undone you don't remember undoing!

The wiring to the Safety Relay, right smack on top of the heap, it being in the path of Carb removal!

 

Right, then.

Got up today, pulled the plugs, thought a couple of them looked kinda... wet, but wasn't sure. Ran the engine though a couple of revolutions without the plugs, put them back in, hit the switch. Got a couple of coughs, but nothing. Tried to locate this "safety relay" you're referring to, but I'm still not quite sure where it's at.

Pulled the plugs again, filed them off with sandpaper, checked 3 of 4 for spark, of which I'm getting plenty. The one I didn't check, #3, the plug looked kinda wet again. Put it back in, put the leads on, hit the switch. You're trying? Come on, baby... cough, cough, sputter, sputter, wwwwwrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa

Engine finally catches, revs up past 2000, back down to 1000, then up to 4000 and holds there. Cold. With no choke. But what's this? Gas is pouring onto the ground underneath the bike? And the petcock isn't even set to prime?

NOW what? Float levels too high? All I did was set #2 and #3 to what #1 and #4 were already showing. (sigh) I do NOT want to have to pull the blasted things. AGAIN.

 

Sounds like a stuck float valve...not seating to stop fuel flow when full.

Try setting the petcock to prime and immediately start tapping the carb rack with a soft impact hammer, or the wooden handle of a tool. Concentrate on the right hand side of the carb rack since you mentioned #3 is wet. Does the overflow stop after tapping for a bit?

Z

 

Alas - sounds more like a stuck float I'm afraid.

Luckily the fix isn't so bad -- whack the carb bowls with something that won't mar them up a few times to pop the float loose.

Does sound like the carbs aren't quite right though - sorry....

But I'm sure you'll get it! 8)

 

Next chapter in the saga:

Went out today, started banging on the float bowls. Cranked the bike, eventually started, raced up to 4000rpm. Gunk starts pouring out under the bike (I used a catchpan this time!). Looks a bit thicker than straight gas... some of it's dripping from the u-joint boot cover? Waitaminute... whacking the float bowls kinda makes the bike stumble a little bit, but it keeps going. Fine. I'm pulling the damn carbs again. Shut down, start unbolting things, check the plugs... 3 looks a wee bit damp, but not wet. Unbolt the cover to the air filter, and my earlier suspicions are confirmed -- the gunk is being pumped up from the crankcase into the airbox through the breather hose. Definite case of gasoil.

Doesn't explain why the engine is racing to 4k rpm, though. We'll see what the floats look like. They looked okay when I bolted the blasted float bowl on the last time...

 

Have you synched your carbs? I was recently working on an XJ that behaved exactly the same way when the carbs were out of synch. Once synched with the idle set, purred like a kitten.

Greg

 

See my post from Sunday:

I pulled the carbs back off (yet again) and drained/unbolted the float bowls. If the float(s) were stuck before, they got unstuck whilst they were being twisted/banged around removing them. I think I'll try and lower the float levels just a wee bit, for the sake of paranoia.

One set of instructions on the XJ CD for rough syncing the carbs mentioned a sheet of paper and "just a sliver of light showing"; I thought I was seeing a wee bit more than a "sliver", but there was that thing I read about the hole showing... how much of the hole should be visible? You mentioned having the idle set. Now I'm wondering if my set screw is turned in too far.

But, if that's the case, why would the gasoil be sucked up from the crankcase?

 

If you did have a stuck float or float valve, fuel may have leaked into the crankcase. If so, the oil level may be well over "full" and blowing out the crankcase vent tube. Your oil may now be mixed with fuel, which is bad, so check oil level and have a sniff in the oil fill hole. Smell like fuel?

"Tap on carb body" means lightly. They don't need hammered into submission, just encouraged to behave.

In bench synching the carbs, the intension is just to get them kind of close and fairly matching. It would be next to impossible to get them perfect without vacuum gauges to fine tune after remounting the carbs and starting the bike.

Z

 

Use the Red Tube from Carb Cleaner.

Open 3 with the Idle Adjustment Rod until the Red Tube drags on the clearance of #-3.
Match 4 - to - 3 ... by adjusting the #-4 Sync screw.
Match 2 - to - 3 & 4
Check #-1 (It's usually in sync with 2)
Adjust 1 - to - 2
Check that 1 & 2 remain in sync while you adjust 2.
Finally.
Match 2 - to - 3 & 4 (#-1 should be coming along for the ride)

Decrease the diameter of the feeler gauge to a long darning needle, or snip the top off a straight pin and back-off the Idle Rod until 3 is at the new gauge setting
Check all your clearances with the new gauge.
They should all still be right-on.

 

The way you're describing it, it sounds like I might not have the butterflies open far enough... yet the engine races. I wonder if the gasoil being pumped into the airbox is being sucked into the engine and making it act like I've got the throttle cracked open.

In any event, I snapped a couple of pics down the engine side of the carbs.

Three holes. #1, I have no idea where it comes from or why it goes there. #2 is what I currently have visible. #3 is still blocked by the butterflies. Do #2 and #3 come from the compensator jets?

Also: is there an easier way of getting the carbs back into the intake boots? I swear I'm fighting for the better part of ten minutes trying to get them back in. I'm half tempted to smear something like vaseline on the inside of the boots and/or the carbs themselves

 

When I synced mine they were open WAY less than that, and I raced at 2000 RPM. Turn the idle screw down (the knurled screw at the center of the rack between float bowls on 2 & 3).

 

Once you get the Butterfly's all in Sync at the same "Measured Value" (Red Tube, Needle, Drill Shank, Twist-tie wire ... what-have-you) you CLOSE the Butterfly's (hopefully all in a state of mechanically synced together) and control the Idle with the Idle Adjustment Rod.

 

I should note that in the first picture, I opened the butterfly so that hole#3 was visible; as it sits now, #2 can be seen but not #3. My bad for not saying so earlier.

So neither #2 nor #3 should be visible? I distinctly remember reading something on here that said otherwise. As for the method of synchronizing them, I used the back edge of hole #2 and my standard issue Model 0 Mark 1s. (In other words, my eyes.)

 

The idea is to NOT "Eyeball" them. The idea is to set the opening with as much precision as possible.
That's why you use a round "Feeler" to set the four Butterflys to a point where they are all opening together ... with the spaces at the bottoms of the Flys all the same from the bodys of the carbs.

But, if you are going to hook-'em up to sticks, anyway ... your eyeballing it is good enough for government work.

 

Spent more time with it today, and things are looking up.

Zilla: you called that one cold. When you said to check the oil level, I did; didn't see any, so I thought it was low. I was seeing fuel.

The catchpan I had underneath the engine held five quarts. I decided to drain the crankcase and refill with the 20/50 that someone around here likes so much. So, I unbolt the drain plug and the stuff starts gushing out. Soon, it's getting toward the top of the catchpan.

...and it doesn't want to stop.

Quicklike put the drain plug back in, switch to the other drain pan, and finish draining the engine. Then, I unbolt the cover for the oil filter, and take that off.

I decide to let it finish draining, and head down to the local Pep Boys to get the oil. Maybe I can have them order a Purolator filter while I'm at it... what? You can't get them? Okay, thanks... drive a block down the street to a Kragen's (could be Checker or Schuck's depending on where you're at). They got all sorts of Fram, so... you can get them? Wonderful. How long will that take?... a couple of hours?? I'll take two!

Pay for them, drive back home, close the butterflies, start bolting the carbs back into the bike. Mid-task, I get the call; filters are in. Drive back down, pick up a fresh set of spark plugs while I'm there, drive back home, and take the opportunity to change the oil on my car. (Hey, I've got a broken exhaust hanger! So THAT'S where the rattle was coming from...)

Finish the car, start bolting the bike back together. Fresh filter (comes with o-rings!), put in the oil, gap and install the plugs. Battery, tank, connect the hoses, put it on PRI for a few seconds, then back to ON and hit the button. Cranks, but not quite. Max choke, sounds like it's trying. Third try, it catches, sputters a bit, and dies. Next try, it catches and holds. Then the engine revs up, I back down to half choke, and it's idling nicely at just over 1000 rpm. I hit the throttle, the engine roars.

She ain't dead yet.

 

Excellent - making progress.

Here's another post made a short while back concerning petcock and float valves. You may be familiar already, but just in case. Don't want the situation to repeat on you.
http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... html#31525

Z

 

DARN I hate when I'm reading through a thread and I think I have the answer but it just goes on and on, then just when I think I'm gonna tell what I think someone else sees what I'm seeing.

I was going to tell you you had gas in your oil from whe you left the petcock in Prime..

Sounds like your on your way!

Way 2 go Zilla!

 

The issue he raised wasn't the fact that there was gas in the oil, but how much of it, and that being the reason why it was coming out the crankcase vent tube.

 

Hokay. Next installment of my sordid tale.

Fired up the beast, took her for a spin down the street (wouldn't do this the last time I tried), pulled the tank, stuck in the YICS tool, and started with the colortune again. (This time, I think I have a better idea what to actually do with the blasted thing.)

As mentioned before, I started with the mixture screws at 3 turns out. Turning the screws out never did turn the flame orange, unless I blipped the throttle; at about 5 turns or so, however, it did turn the flame a bright blue and caused the engine to idle slightly higher... except for #2. I didn't get the same flame as the other three until I turned the screw about 5 turns out. Is it me, or does that not sound quite right?

Then I noticed that I had forgotten to turn the tank back to PRI when I ran the test, so I did 3 and 4, and figured I'd go back to 2 later. Problem was, when I did, the arcing became so bad that it was unusable. Gotta insulate that bloody electrode.

 

Wrap the extension top to bottom with 2 or 3 layers of vinyl electrical tape.
The ColorTune People will send you the new and improved one if you visit the site and leave an "too much arcing" comment.

Best way ... I have ... been able to utilize the Colortune Plug:
Fire-up engine
Get good idle going.
Run the Pilot Screw CLOSED.
Watch carefully as Pilot Screw is turned OUT
Look for color
Get it ... hitting BLUE
Add micro-tweak to see if its a steady blue.
Blue.
Tweak IN holding color Blue
Find the spot where it loses Blue
Reverse to re-find Blue.
Done.

 

Errr... how does insulating the extension prevent it from arcing inside the... wait. It's arcing outside the cylinder? Hmmmm....

Well, everybody says "bunsen burner blue", but it's been years since I set foot in a high school science lab, and I don't have natural gas at the house... I get dark blue, and I get light blue. I'm guessing somewhere in the middle.

More in a couple of days.

 

There is a problem with the Original extension wire attachment that causes it to arc and short-out to the surrounding engine block surfaces.

I thought that was what you were experiencing.

I wrote a nice comment to the Gunsun People and they sent me a more insulated connector.

 

Okay, real quick question (may or may not be unrelated).

Got the homemade YICS tool. How would one tell if the tool isn't doing its job? Would the cylinder flame as shown by the colortune not want to change color?

 

Lets assume your YICS tool doesn't seal properly. You still have most of the YICS passage filled. Relatively little fuel/air getting around it.

More likely you have a problem with getting fuel to the pilot jets.

I don't have a color tune, but on my #1 carb I can go from mixture screw bottomed to having it completely removed from the carb with absolutely no effect on the idle. I'm willing to bet that there would be no color change in the color tune either. Bottom line, I've got a problem with the pilot circuit.

In my case the idle is just a bit rough and I can't dial it down to Ricks magical 900 rpm ticking like a Swiss watch thing. It does run pretty good at 1100 RPM. Bottom line, no time that could be spent riding will go into this. January will be perfect for getting into the carbs.

 

Okay, I'm back to being... well... Not Amused.

After pulling the carbs for the third time, and having chatted with Rick and Robert via private message, I swapped jets between my #2 and #1 carbs; Rick's reasoning being that he wanted to see if the problem migrated, and if it did, #1 would be easier to get to.

That done, I put the carbs back in, fired up the bike, let it warm up, and just for grins, put the colortune in the #4 cylinder to see what would happen. Guess what? The motherfarking thing started arcing again. I've wrapped the end of the extender lead in multiple layers of electrical tape. I've tried to isolate the piece that it screws into with heatshrink and electrical tape. All to no avail. I'm sick of this damn thing.

It. Does. Not. Work.

I'm half a heartbeat away from packing this thing up and sending it to England with a note saying that they can have it back.

I don't have an exhaust gas analyzer. I'm going to check the XJ cds to see if there's an alternate method for getting the mixture set properly. Failing that, does anybody have any other suggestions?

 

I had the very same problem with my new ColorTune Plug Kit. I contacted the Manufacturer via the "Contact Us" line on the Official Site and registered my complaint.

Shortly thereafter, I received an "Upgraded" extension lead from the Maker.

The new extension works much better than the original.

But ... I'm going to have to help you get that bike ColorTuned ... 'cause I don't want you to pull-out all your hair.

So, try this ... OK

Cut-out some trapezoidal-shaped sections of car tire inner-tube that you can drape around the spark plug hole.

I already saw the light come-on over your head ... so, let us know how the rubber insulation blankets work-out ... will you ... please???

 

I sent email to the site (www.gunson.co.uk, yes?) last night, telling them that I had purchased a model 500 secondhand, it was arcing, I'd tried to insulate the thing, and I would be grateful for any suggestions. I had a reply this morning, basically echoing yours -- a piece of rubber tubing around the entire HT lead.

Problem is, you're both making the assumption that the lead is arcing to the cylinder head -- it's arcing from the upper exposed part of the electrode (or the bottom metal part of the HT lead) to the outer ground portion of the electrode. Technically, that would be the head, as that's what the electrode screws into... but somehow I don't think draping bits of rubber around the spark plug hole is going to fix the problem.

 

Well ...

You got strong Coil Output ... that's a good sign.

How about a 2-inch section of rubber or vinyl hose. Slide it down the extension and over the top section of the plug.

Working on the principle that the electric charge will seek it's easiest path to Ground ... I think you should examine the top of the plug for a possible hair-line fracture.

If the top of the plug is OK ... then, there is too much exposed extension lead where it attaches to the plug and you'll have to insulate that path.
A sleeve of rubber hose or vinyl hose slipped down over the extension should do the trick ...

Unless ... the extension arcs from a spot along its length to the cooling fins.
Not so much a problem when attempting to do -- 1 - & - 4 -- but, a factor when you have the canyon of cooling fins surrounding the lead while doing 2 - & - 3.

If the Gap between the Plug's electrode and Sleeve has been widened ... or the business-end of the plug is fouled ... that's going to dramatically effect the performance of the test and would be a likely source for the charge to be looking for any other place to arc-over to ground.

 

True. Something about looking at the bright side of things. :wink:

In addition to what I've already added? I'm almost afraid to put anything else on, as it might obstruct the view of the sight crystal.

As you can see, I've already put quite a bit on. The upper part of the electrode has two layers of tape and a bit of heatshrink tubing underneath that. The bottom of the HT lead has several layers of electrical tape, although the tape says it's rated for 600v, which is probably somewhat lacking. Still, I did use several layers... the other picture tries to show the electrode gap, but my old digital camera can't quite focus that close. As another poster mentioned, it seems smaller than the stock sparkplug gap of 0.7 - 0.8mm.

...which is what I've been trying to do all along. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong. Anybody know where I can get an old gas analyzer on the cheap? :wink:

 

schmuckaholic, you have more tape than you can shake a stick at on your electrode. I would try to put a layer of tape around the inside edge of the plug cavity to try to see if it may stop the arc from getting to the body of the plug.

My color tune use to arc to the body also, I got by with just two layers of tape on my high tension lead adapter. No more arc

When you screw your lead to the plug does it go all the way down and touch the black insulator?

 

lookslike you have the same problem I heve with mine. It arcs right down next to where the electrode goes through the crystal right? Mine still does this also. Happens mostly when the colortune plug is hot? You need to do the same thing I need to do. Order just the new style plug. Not the whole kit, Just the plug. It is about half the price of the kit.
The plug acts like it builds a lot of resistance and wont allow the spark to flow through it, when it is warm. I have done all kinds of things to mine short of throwing it across the room. But it all comes down to ordering the updated plug. I wish we could get some kind of credit on the one we all ready purchased though. These little suckers are expensive, but a deal for what they do.
My pilots are at 3.5 and the bike seems to run really well. I would rather have too much fuel than not enough. Rich=good. lean=bad (thanks rick)

 

OK new to the site. Im robert i have a 1982 xj550 maxim I have a no start condtion, Replaced battery, starter, new oil and air filters etc. It hasent been ran for 3 yrs. Garage keep very clean bike, Ive been told many things to check and done then all but still wind up in the same position a no start condtion so any help would be great Thank You.

 

Hello there Zenn.
Let me start by welcoming you to the forum, I hope you find what you seek here.
Next, you need to post your question in a separate thread. Posting on someone else's thread is poor form. Just click on the "New Topic" button at the top of each forum heading.
Now to the bike. You mention a few things you have done to get the bike started. It might be helpful to list all that you have changed/fixed and what conditions do exist, i.e. spark at the plug, XXX psi on compression test, etc. Be as specific as possible and we'll go from there.
Also, list your bike year and model in your signature line, you might include the first 3 numbers/letters of your VIN to aid in diagnosing problems.
Glad to have you here, I think you will enjoy the time spent.

 

Thought of that. Tried that. Didn't help.

That's where it's arcing, yes. No, it doesn't appear to do it only when it's hot.

Yesterday, I went out and got some fuel tubing and put it around the bottom of the HT lead, as was suggested. Went all the way down to the crystal, over the exposed upper electrode (and the tape I had put on it). You can see the results below... it pretty much obscured the crystal.

And had no effect whatsoever. I'd have taken a picture of the arcing, but the last try out, I couldn't even start the damn bike.

So, that's it. I've had it with this thing. I'm packing it up and sending it back to England as a form of protest. I'll just have to figure out another way of setting the mixture properly, because I sure as hell won't be using a Colortune ever again.

 

I think you should return the ColorTune, along with a few print-outs of your many attempts to use it ... and all the difficulty you encountered.

Perhaps they'll send you a replacement and you'll have a better experience with a different one.

'Cause you sure didn't have much of a favorable experience with the one you're packin'-up for the trip back home.

I'm glad the office ain't right next door to your place; 'cause it sounds like you'd really like to return it wrapped-up and taped to a rock or a brick!