Valve check experience

I was all set to do a valve check tomorrow. Got a new gasket, new rubbers to hold down the valve cover, got all my tools layed out, picked up a set of hemostats and got some industrail wire to hold the valves down through the sparkplug holes...

But then I stumbled on to to Bigfitz part two post on valve clearance.. Now I'm afraid that I'll damage one of the valve seals. How big of a risk is this? I know its hard to put a risk factor on a motor thats 30 years old. The bikes sitting with 12,000 miles on it right now. I've been putting off checking the valves forever now and was all ready to dive into it tomorrow but now I'm getting concerened. If I damage one of the seals I don't think it's an easy fix? Probably have to pull the head I'd imagine?

Some words of wisdom would be appreciated here! I got to pull the cover anyhow, as the gaskets starting to leak. But wanted to get a reading of what shims are in there incase anythings not within tollerance.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

It's really hard to say; but it is the #1 reason that I won't use that method myself. #2 reason is the possibility of knocking a big hunk out of a nice carbon "cushion" on a valve seat.

You know my position. I did the article on the "Zip Tie" method not to promote the idea but rather to explain what's going on, show you the parts from a view you can't normally see, and hopefully help people to successfully use the tool.

Since the cover will be off, at least go ahead and check your clearances. Then you'll have a better idea of what's going on with the motor anyway. (While you wait for the tool to arrive.)

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Well I could always keep my fingers crossed that all the valves are within spec, right?! HA.. I just hate to wait; patience is not one of my better virtues. I'd like to be able to order the shims and the tool all at once and be done with it.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Can't know what shims you need until you take them out and read them. Can't take them out without the tool, the zip tie or the wire.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

True. But I Can at least check and see what my clearance is until I get the tool. I have To change the gasket regardless since its leaking.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Well I got the bike home, put the centerstand on and popped the tank off in prep for tomorrows work. Decided I'd try geting the screws out of the crankcase cover tonight. Last week while polishing I had removed the right hand(hollow) side; those screws were in there really tight and took some time and a tap tap of the hammer. This side the screws came out with barley and torque required! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this means the cover was removed by PO for valve clearance checks?!

Both PO's are in the family. My Uncle bought it new and my cousin acquired it in the mid 90s. I received the bike in 2007ish. Both of them said they had the bike in the shop for "standard maintenance" but neither could confirm/remember what exactly was done. I'm hoping the shop checked the valves and that I'll luck out with my clearances being in spec. Will keep everyone informed. Check in tomorrow to see what numbers I'm working with!

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

how do these old wives tales get started? if pushing the valve to one side is going to crack a valve stem seal either the seals are so brittle their useless or the valve stem and guide are so worn that the motor wouldn't even run, so forget that.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

So youre saying ive got nothing to worry about using the ziptie method? Ive never dug this far into an engine before.. just trying to get all the info I can

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Zip away, steber, cold, you cant bend the valve stems with a lump hammer.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

disconnect the battery first!!

I used a very large zip tie with no problem what so ever. I would remind you to make sure you do not rotate the engine past the cam lobe your working on with the zip inserted. I don't think there is enough room for both valves to open at the same time.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Cold, valves do "rock" in their guides; that is normal and even specified.

Yes, a seal would have to be brittle to be able to be damaged but it might very well still be functioning.

I never said anything about bending the valve stems.

And disturbing the carbon "pad" on the valve seat or the back of the valve head IS a concern. Knock a big enough hunk loose and you can create a hot spot and set up for a burnt valve. The use of insulated wire, with a smooth and somewhat soft surface is preferable to a hard-edged zip-tie in that respect if you insist on jamming something down the plug'ole. Plus we've had a couple of recent instances of members with broken zip-ties adrift in the combustion chamber. Still not quite sure how that happened but it has happened and a piece of 12-gauge wire won't break off on you.

The trick of jamming something down the hole to prop open a valve has been around for years. However, virtually every manufacturer of motors that need their valves held open for adjustment has some sort of TOOL that does it FROM ABOVE and for many good reasons. The later, Diversion-style XJ descendants use a slipper tool that slides in and pushes the bucket down, as do most Suzukis. Different auto companies have other styles of tools as well, all that work from above, by keeping the spring compressed.

Sure you can generally "get away" with it. But there are reasons it's not recommended; and probably a whole lot more than I can come up with.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Thanks for all the info guys.. Woke up early and went to work on the valve check.

Here's my readings so far.. They seem all over the place and to check to see if they're in spec. Just recored the clearance, didn't pull shims yet..

From left to right sitting on the bike:
Exhaust: >.051 ~.145 .152 .051

Intake: .102 .152 ~.124 .076


The >.051 was so tight the .051 feeler was really hard to get in there, hence the less than.

The approximate ones are clearances that fell in between too feelers. I errored towards the one that was tighter.

Now I just need to figure out what ones are way out of spec..

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Are those "American" numbers? Or metric, from an American set with metric equivalents printed on it?

If those are metric measurements, all of your exhausts are horribly tight plus intakes #1 and #4. Intakes 2 and 3 would be in spec. (Cylinders are numbered L-R as sitting on the bike.)

The exhaust valve you couldn't get the gauge on is approaching "dead" tight. This one may require you swapping in a thinner shim and re-measuring to properly calculate what you'll need.

Good catch. This motor was approaching the danger zone.

(Spec is .11mm ~ .15mm intake and .16mm ~ .20mm exhaust.)

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

They're metric from an american set with metric equivalents. Couldn't find a pure metric set readily available. I should be able to use them to get within spec though, correct?


And Yeah Fitz, I just compared all the numbers to the tolerance. I'm locking up the key til I get these bad boys in spec! Those exhausts are scarey tight. *sigh* Hate to park it but blowing her up would be alot worse.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Those feelers are fine; just don't drive yourself crazy over .002mm DROP the third digit. (.002mm = .00008")

And you're absolutely right about the two exhaust valves. This is why many of us harp and harp about valve clearances; nobody ever wants to take it seriously until they actually check them and find out what all the fuss is about. I got my '83 with only 7000 miles on it and it was untouched. Seven out of 8 were tight, two scary tight.

The best part is, once you read and record them ALL, then record the swaps so you know what's installed then when they're due the next time (5K miles down the road) you'll know what shims to have on hand. You'll have the next size smaller shims for whichever valves were the closest to being on the tight side of spec ready to go and it will be a one-step process from then on.

Plus now you'll have learned one of the most important maintenance procedures for your bike.

Then we can talk chain and sprockets and maybe rear wheel bearings.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

shim calculator
here's a calculator for shims, plug in your numbers, and a degree wheel.

Fitz, what spec is it for how much a valve should "rock" in the guide?

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Thanks fitz. Your advice is always sound. I didn't heed your warning, rather I did, just didnt listen, on the dangers of the zip tie method. But Patience went out the window. I'm pulling all the shims to check what I have in there.

One question, How to a measure my tightest valve when I can't get my feeler in there? You say to swap, but since I don't have any spare shims how do i do this? I doubt its reccomended to have a vavle without a shim?

Hold down two exhaust vavles and switch while they're held down? I have a 270 shim in the tightest valve, the one next to it is a 256.. I assume this is smaller and I could switch those to get a measurement?


Furthermore, I just wanna say I was one of those guy that was "I'll get to it, I see its important but the bikes running like a dream, I can put it off"

well needless to say, Had I put it off I might not have had a bike by the end of the season!

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

You're not going to be able to pull two shims at the same time, and DO NOT turn the motor over with a shim out. You can damage the bucket or the CAM (yes, that's been done by a member here too.)

If the uber-tight one is a 270 now, then yes, drop a 265 or below in and re-measure. Member HogFiddles runs a shim pool; and I think I've got a 260 I could spare. Check with HF (he's closer than me, mail will get there sooner.) You'll end up needing a 255 or even a 250 for that one; see what it measures with a 260 or 265 in it.

Be patient enough to get another shim; find your local Yammery and see if they have a 255. (If you're gonna buy one might as well take a SWAG at it being what you'll need.)

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Here are the Final numbers! If anyone with a lot of experience could double check me, I'll be posting what shims I "think" I need in an hour or two after I run the numbers a few times.

{Exhaust clearance}(current shim)
{.045}(Y270)..{.145}(Y256)..{.152}(Y270)..{.051}(Y270)

{Intake clearance}(current shim)
{.102}(Y265)..{.152}{inspec}..{.124}(inspec)..{.076}(Y270}


I'm not checking the ones in spec today. I will check them to have on file when I get my new shims.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

FIrst of all, I assume that the Y256 shim number for your second exhaust valve is a typo mistake and I should read Y265.

Second, it seems you didn't measured with metric gauges, you converted to metric. This is not optimal, and the third digit past the zero may be disturbing a bit. Let's assume this third digit doesn't exist.

The shims you'll need are:

Exhaust: 255-260-265-255

Intake: 260-OK-OK-265

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

It's easy, just do the math. Shims come in .05mm increments:

Exhaust 1: At .04, you'll need .15 (3 sizes) to get to .19 and in spec. A 255 (what'd I tell ya!)

Ex #2: .14 needs .05 to get to .19; one size. (It's not a 256 it's a 265, right?) So you'd need a 260.

Ex #3: .15 and .05 gets you .20. One size down, 265.

Ex #4: Gonna need 3 sizes there too; .15+.05=.20. Another 255.

One size down on each of the two tight intake valves and you're done. (.10+.05=.15 on #1; and .07+.05=.12 on #4. So a 260 and a 265 (which you can move from #1.)

Make sense? Chart, schmart. Quick math.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Great. Those are the numbers I got as well. I see you said to use the Intake number one on number 4, so can I use the 265 from Ex#2 in Ex#3?

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

You can swap any shim from any valve to any other. If a shim from an exhaust valve would meet your need for an intake valve (or vice versa), that would be fine too.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

I won't lie, I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize in advance if this or similar has been said.

Given all the debate over the holding tool vs the zip-tie method isn't it just easier to remove the cams? The first set of valves I ever checked and adjusted was a 1995 Yamaha FZR600R (US YZF600), they were shim under bucket but it wasn't too great a task to mark the chain and cam sprockets with some paint and then remove them. With the cams totally out of the way you're free to read all the shims, shuffle them about, whatever. Or is it really just easier to use a holder/zip-tie?

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

I haven't pulled the cams on a motorcycle, but to me it was easier to do the ziptie than to pull the cam on a car? Don't know how good of a comparison that really is but none the less.

One last question before I order up my shims... Shim numbers are supposed to be face down, correct? The blank side of the shim should be what faces the cam..

Everythings buttoned back up for now. Will order in my shims and keep the bike parked til they're all in spec. Thanks for all the help!

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

yes numbers down, blank side up against the cams.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

It's easier to follow the factory-recommended method.

Of course, on a shim-under-bucket setup, you have to pull the cams. The FZRs and X-Motor XJs are like that, a lot of bikes are. But re-timing the cams (and just removing/reinstalling them) when you don't need to is asking for trouble.

Yes, the numbers go down, so they don't get worn off by the cam lobe.

Good job.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Awesome Info. Thanks bigfitz, as always!

One last question. Can i expect a power gain after these shims are in order? Obvoiusly not before I sync the carbs again and get it all back to in spec. But with the specs out so bad on the clearance I'd imagine I'm losing compression or something which would make the bike run a little sloppy. Or am I having a pipe dream? Always looking to get a little more power outta these bikes.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

it could deff improve how the bike runs with properly adjusted valves, thats not a dream at all

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Oh golly yes. I accidentally pulled a wheelie (in my jammies) right after I got the valves done for the first time in my '81 and went to ride up and down the block before putting it away. I gave it as much throttle as I was used to and the front wheel came up.

Once you get the valves back in spec and the carbs done up right you can expect to be surprised. The 550 was quite a world-beater when it first came out and it's certainly no slouch, even compared to today's bikes. Get a stock 550 tuned right and it's quite "snappy" to say the least.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Good to know! Got my price quote from the life saver chacal, should place the order tonight and have her back on the road by next weekend!

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Thats awesome Steber, I'm awaiting some stuff from Len too so I can check these valves.

Fitz, you say that the engine cannot be turned when there is a shim out. How then would you grab a shim from another valve to test clearance on one that won't fit a feeler gauge?

I need to know for this weekend in case I run into a situation where I can't slide a feeler gauge.

Thanks!

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

You get an extra shim in advance...........a 'junk' one is ideal for that.

Dave

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Dave, good call. Problem is I didn't order a shim with Len.

Just everything else to test the clearances and replace valve gasket and donuts. Oh well, lets hope I don't have a valve that I can't stick a feeler into!

I'm terrified of this job by the way. Ive changed oil in my car and stuff like that, nothing like this before.

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Valves are all in spec! Bout to take her out for a ride and see how she runs! The second time pulling the cover and shims was a breeze! For anyone who hasn't checked your valves you better get to it! Mine were way out of spec! And remember kids, Slappy valves are happy valves!

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

Dude let us know how it runs compared to before!

 

Re: Doing a valve check tomorrow... Hopefully

You can deff tell that its breathing better. It has a much better valve train noise than before; clack happy.

The engine runs great at idle and through the gears. Idle climbs fast and drops right away. As for the power/torque, its a slight improvement. I didn't really "put her through the paces" but take off is slightly smoother and gear transition is great.

1st gear, from the drop of the clutch -- EVER so slight hesitation. I'm talking very slight. Using the clutch through the gears the pick up is improved.

What I really noticed is that if I speedshift (shift without using the clutch) the pull in the next gear is WAY better than before. I had an "OH SH!T" moment when I went from 1st to 2nd speedshifting. It's never pulled that hard before and surprised me. I deff felt the front end lighten up for a second.

Again, this was ONLY a valve shim swap. Next I'm going to be doing a vac sync and we shall see what that brings us. So far (outside of rebuilding the carbs) this is the biggest improvement in performance. Even if it was ever so slight. Looking forward to getting her synced and really seeing what she's got.

 

You wanna find out what a sync will do...........ask osprey1000 about how his bike felt after I synced it at the Carb Clinic last month. He did the carbs over the winter, and did a shim swap. The sync was waiting til CNYCC time He'll tell you what kind of power develops!

Dave F

 

Can't wait! Wish there was a carb clinic down here! I just made a two bottle manometer, will be using it when I get my next day off. Wish I had money for sticks or something but I figure even if its not perfect, any small improvement will make a difference.

 

audio..........you CAN simply do the clearance check and put the cover back on for now, using the same gasket as long as it isn't torn. Just do check one shim at a time. You measure the gap, write it down, pull the shim and read the number, write it down and then stick the shim back in, number side facing down. go to the next one, etc......

Then, do your math or read the chart to determine what sizes you need. In the meantime you can still ride til the shims arrive.

If you're unsure of what is needed, put the numbers here, and we'll help you. Once you know what shims you need, you can either order them yourself, or pm me and I can give you specifics for the shim pool. The shim pool is a giant 'shim swap service' that I and a few others do. Between the few of us, we have quite a few shims for swapping. The gist of it is simple.........you send your old shims in to us, and we send you the sizes you need. There is a deposit due first, but once your old shims are sent, your deposit is returned. There are also some new shims that are available at a reasonable cost, and there is a reduced cost when old shims are sent in along with them, too.

PM me and I'll tell you more.

Dave Fox

 

In August there is usually one in Allentown. I'm not sure if they're doing it this year or not.

 

You'd want to watch for the Lehigh Valley Carb Clinic (LVCC). Listmember, Desingermike, is who you'd want to check with.

I haven't heard anything about it for this year yet............

The 7th annual Central New York Carb Clinic (CNYCC#7) will be next June, date still tbd.

Dave F

 

Dave,

Thanks for the offer man, but I don't know if I can wait for you to receive mine and then wait for a shipment... Or do you ship right when I make the deposit? That would be great as it wouldn't cost me anything vs close to 70ish bucks for new ones

 

pm'd