1. Some members were not receiving emails sent from XJbikes.com. For example: "Forgot your password?" function to reset your password would not send email to some members. I believe this has been resolved now. Please use "Contact Us" form (see page footer link) if you still have email issues. SnoSheriff

    Hello Guest. You have limited privileges and you can't "SEARCH" the forums. Please "Log In" or "Sign Up" for additional functionality. Click HERE to proceed.

Is this carb related or something else?

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by kleraudio, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    So I got my bike a couple weeks ago. The only way to get it started is to push the start button and then give it a good few throttle turns and it fires right up.

    If I just push the start button, it starts to do its thing but when I release the start button it just dies....

    What could be the problem there? When it's running, it runs just fine. Just getting it started requires me working the throttle a few times and revving it a bit.

    Thanks

    Jim
     
  2. broberg

    broberg Member

    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Sweden, Östergötland
    It is probably a combination of semi-bad enrichment circuits on the carbs and you probably have a tight valve or valves.

    First I would check the valves (I say first cause this is a simple thing to do and It's easier to remove the valve cover then to get the carb rack out and clean them).


    And while your in there, order a valve tool and check all the numbers on the shims, I ordered the tool and took the time to do it and I don't regret it at all!
     
  3. sektorgaz

    sektorgaz Member

    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Western MA, United States
    Wow, I think you are over your quota on forum posts lol. You might want to consider starting a single thread, so that it is easier to see if any issues are related.

    re: starting issue

    Is everything secure and clean in the kill-switch housing?
     
  4. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    how's the battery + charging system?
     
  5. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Thanks guys. Lol I guess I have reached my post quota. I'll stop for a few days I guess. I'm just trying to learn everything possible.

    I am going to do a valve check next saturday. Thought I could do it this saturday, but I need to get my tires put on and the engine wont be cool enough to work on it. (no garage)

    Not sure how to check battery + charging system (I'm very green :))

    How do i check that kill switch housing?

    I'm glad to hear this may not be carb related. I read the church of clean thread and that is something I CANNOT do. I know myself, and my bike will be trashed after I attempt something like that.
     
  6. broberg

    broberg Member

    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Sweden, Östergötland
    Since the starter does engage when you push the button, it's probably not related to the killswitch housing or the button itself.

    However, The battery could be drained enough to loose spark I guess, but it doesn't sound likely since you can get it to start when you rev.


    It may still be carb related, AND you CAN CERTAINLY do the cleaning! It just looks worse then it is, you just have to take your time. Don't rush it. Take a week to do it, an hour a day and by the end of the week your carbs are as good as new!

    And do buy a lower end rebuild kit, I know it's costly but you will thank yourself in the end!
     
  7. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    Dude, see if there's any members around you that are willing to help. I guarantee you can do the carbs. Take plenty of pictures and take your time.

    As far as diagnosing your charging system. Quick and easy method. Take a multimeter and set it to the 20 volt range. With the bike off, your battery should read appx 12.1-12.7 volts. with the bike running, it should increase slightly at idle, rev up to 2500 or so, and it should be in the + 14 volt range. if your battery is low, get it load tested at your local auto parts store, it probably needs replaced though. Also, your alternator brushes are a big wear item prone to failure
     
  8. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    What is a lower end rebuild kit?

    I dunno man, I don't have a garage or a space to work on the carbs for an hour a day for a week. I live in a small apartment with absolutely nowhere to do a dirty carb cleaning!

    I'll check the battery out later today with my multimeter. If the battery is low, you think that may be the start button issue? These batteries are pretty inexpensive if I remember correctly.
     
  9. broberg

    broberg Member

    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Sweden, Östergötland
    It's the float needle, float needle seat and gasket for the float bowls. (Look in the Xj4ever catalog for your carb specific kit)

    I did the cleaning of my carbs in the apartment, it's the few things you actually CAN do in your apartment without any major hassles, And it's easier to get to the cleaning when they are just a few steps away from your bed :D (Only thing to think of is some carb cleaners needs good ventilation, so open a window or two to get a draft going).
     
  10. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    A lower end rebuild kit is a kit containing all (usually most of) the parts to rebuild the bottom part of the carbs. Floats, needles, seats, gaskets, etc. I would recommend going a step further. Break the rack and do the throttle shaft seals and o rings. Also, breaking the rack allows you to dip your carbs to get all that poop out....

    Yes, motorcycle batteries aren't car batteries.... you can drain them really quickly. I would put money on a combination of an old/weak battery and dirty carbs - especially in the enrichment circuit as the cause of your hard starting problems.

    As a personal recommendation, don't do the cheap bargain lead acid battery.... do an AGM. They are stronger, last longer, and maintenance free.
     
  11. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Thanks man, I'll check the battery power and see where I'm at. AGM. not sure what that is but I'll do some research.

    I really hope the battery is low and a new one will help me fire right up! Choke on or off, doesn't make a difference, still need to rev the engine to get her started and idling right.

    Lower end rebuild kit is exactly what I wanted to do, just didn't know the name of it :) The whole float bowl and needle thing (tail end of church of clean thread) scares the piss out of me lol. hopefully i can find someone local that is willing to help. But with no space to work in, that may be a lost cause. She might be going to a shop this winter to get it done. We'll see :)
     
  12. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    A shop won't do it right..... You can send them my way, or several other people on here will do em for ya!
     
  13. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Seriously? Dude that would be incredible.

    What would you charge me?

    Yea I don't trust the shops AT ALL, but I trust them more than me. I mean they can't give me a back a bike that doesn't run :)
     
  14. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    21,283
    Likes Received:
    418
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Rural SE Michigan 60 miles N of Motown
    Sure but they can give you back one that will then BLOW UP in a few thousand miles if they don't do it right. (Running too lean can "hole" a piston right quick.)

    Twisting the throttle when the engine isn't running DOES NOTHING except open the butterflies. The slides are lifted by vacuum (from a running motor) and supplemental enrichment is supplied by the "choke" (which is actually an enrichening circuit.)

    You need to check your valve clearances and get them in spec. Then you need to properly service and adjust the carbs (including wet-setting the float levels and a good bench sync.) Then it will need a running vacuum sync, with the YICS blocked. That's what it will take to truly fix the starting/running problems.

    Once it's running, you need to fully rebuild the brakes; including master cylinder and caliper seals and brake lines. Anything less is unsafe.

    You're going to have to learn to do and then do a lot of this yourself; you'll go broke paying a shop to do everything the bike needs to make it safe and reliable.
     
  15. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Thanks Fitz. I open the throttle up AS im pushing the start button and it fires up.

    I plan on doing everything myself , except the carbs. I know myself and I will screw that up. I can guarantee it. I'll order a caliper and MC rebuild kit before I do my brake lines and pads that I just got in. Getting tires put on her on saturday and was planning on doing the brakes but I'll have to wait.

    The engine has to be stone cold to do valves right? I'll have to drive it to my work's warehouse and it would be nice if I didnt have to wait 6 hours for it to cool!

    I suppose I could do the valve check and gasket on Sunday morning. how long will it take a complete rookie to do a new gasket, new donuts, and valve clearance check?
     
  16. bikeboy929

    bikeboy929 Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    mahtomedi, mn
    first off is that my bet is on carbs, like broberg said the choke specifically, it might be running "fine" once you get it started, but if it doesn't fire right up with the choke fully out, and no throttle, then your bike could probably benefit alot from a proper carb cleaning and tuning. you might think its running ok, but carb cleaning typically makes a huge difference.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005XQ ... UTF8&psc=1

    this is a cheap bottom end kit for one carb.

    one thing that might be worth asking is what does it idle at with the choke fully off? just a thought that adjusting the throttle MIGHT ( long shot) help you a little.
     
  17. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    When I turn the choke "off" it idles between 1000-1200...

    Thanks for the link man. I just don't think I can do this job. I've read about 12 hours worth of carb cleaning stuff and frankly, its terrifying. Even the brake lines I plan on doing is gonna be rough, and thats just a bolt on mod... (not counting the bleeding of course)
     
  18. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

    Messages:
    14,956
    Likes Received:
    5,239
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near utica, new york
    audio..............................you CAN do it. It's NOT a bad job, take your time, and WE'RE HERE with you TO HELP you IF YOU GET STUCK.

    Dave f
     
  19. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    Seriously.... the valve shims are harder than the carb cleaning....

    If you are careful, and follow directions... there's not too much you can screw up with carbs. Breaking a float pillar is the biggest risk - to mitigate that risk, put the bowls on as much as possible. use kroil or pb blaster to help loosen things up on the float pins and pilot screws. Watch the soft brass on the pilot screws and jets. Also, I recommend working on several folded WHITE bath towels. you can see everything and the soft surface makes it real hard for parts to bounce away. Plan on spending a week or so actually doing the deed the first time learning about and cleaning your carbs. TAKE YOUR TIME.... when you "think" you have it clean, keep going!

    What Len starts "in the church of clean" off with is right on... (my notes added in parenthesis)

    The hard part of getting your bike to run was already done by the engineers when they designed the carbs. You don't need to figure out angles and compression and jet sizes to get the correct atomized fuel to air ratio etc.... you just got to get it CLEAN!!!!


    Oh. Dave's right too.... we're here for you. There's 2 types of people on here. those that have mastered carb cleaning.... and those that WILL master carb cleaning
     
  20. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    or mail them to me for say $200 + parts :)
     
  21. SilentRaven

    SilentRaven Member

    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Sioux Falls, SD
    if you have a multimeter i would check you start button connection, i was having trouble with mine, and i resoldered it and it worked much better, it old connection had gotten a bit rusty. not saying its your problem but it might help a bit to have a good strong connection.

    and you could for sure clean your carbs in your bath tub (make sure you plug the drain) or kitchen table. i would just avoid using carb claening spray inside (go outside for that) i believe they sell a cleaner that you can 'dunk' your parts in to clean it. and jsut opent he windows and set up some fans for ventilation!
     
  22. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Thanks for the motivation guys. Problem is, cleaning requires a break down of the carb. Look at the "church of clean" article. There are warnings everywhere! Then when you're done cleaning you have to do some crazy s/h/i/t/ to the float bowls. Even len says find a friend with the knowledge!

    I dunno, I guess I'll have to read more. Milliken, I may take you up on that, I'd have to learn how to do the carb sync on my own though right? It has to be on the bike and running to sync them correct?
     
  23. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Thanks for the motivation guys. Problem is, cleaning requires a break down of the carb. Look at the "church of clean" article. There are warnings everywhere! Then when you're done cleaning you have to do some crazy s/h/i/t/ to the float bowls. Even len says find a friend with the knowledge!

    I dunno, I guess I'll have to read more. Milliken, I may take you up on that, I'd have to learn how to do the carb sync on my own though right? It has to be on the bike and running to sync them correct?
     
  24. SilentRaven

    SilentRaven Member

    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Sioux Falls, SD
    church of clean is just one option, you don't have to go that indepth (by breaking down each carb from the rack) but it is a good basis on where to start and what to clean. basically make sure the insides are nice and clean and that will make your bike run properly, outsides are just for show, but should also be clean.
     
  25. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Seriously, the valves are harder than the carbs? I'm getting ready to do valves this weekend...

    Church of clean scares me to no end. So when you guys do that not so in depth option, are you still taking the carbs apart completely but not breaking em off the rack?
     
  26. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    Yea... just my opinion, but carbs you just take them apart, + if you see $hit, clean it off, then put them back together. The chemicals + some scrubbing do all the work. Valve shims require a little more technical know-how, and making a mistake could be a bit more costly, a wrong size shim could burn a valve. Also, don't forget to disconnect the battery. One member on here just had to do a top end rebuild because he shorted wires + turned the engine over while checking valves. Ended up breaking the head.

    and my other opinion, break the rack. You have 30+ year old dried out fuel + throttle shaft seals. You can take an extra 2 hours now... or end up taking about 8 hours to remove the rack, strip it, break it, do the seals, reassemble, + reinstall later.

    Added bonus. you can't dip carbs in the serious cleaners like berrymans with the rack assembled... it will DESTROY the seals in minutes (don't forget to remove the pilot screw o rings that are this --> o size!

    And yea you are right. If I rebuild, wet-set floats, + bench sync. You still have to set your idle, do your running syncs, tune, etc....

    You will also be missing out on a valuable piece of knowledge about your bike by not taking the time to learn to love CV carbs. I'll tell you something. I was familiar with carbs for small power equipment (mowers, chainsaws, etc) but I was SCARED to tear into these on my bike. Then I found this site. I learned a lot, but I took shortcuts and cut corners which only made me frustrated. Then i did it right, and then it worked.

    The other issue is ethanol fuel blends. Ethanol both attracts water and evaporates quicker than pure gas. This means you have to clean your carbs more often. I have had to do some "quick" cleaning (meaning not breaking the rack) each spring. I also clean the float bowls and enrichment circuit, and check fuel levels anytime i have the carbs off.

    I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT!

    (also church of clean is less scary if you copy the text into a word document and cut out all the stuff that doesn't apply to your bike)
     
  27. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Thanks Milliken, I'll have to think about this. I'll send you my Taylor too LOL.

    If I do this myself, I'll need new intake boots as well, mine are cracking everywhere. Not leaking yet, but I feel they may be close...

    So when you just take em off the bike to clean, what chemicals are you using that don't destory the seals/gaskets?
     
  28. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    And that's crazy to me, as I feel the valve clearances look like a pretty simple task. My mind doesn't work "normally" LOL.
     
  29. jmilliken

    jmilliken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Dillsburg, PA
    Yea. to be honest, cleaning carbs is really quite simple. Time consuming, tedious, and boring, but simple. Valve shims you actually have to use your brain :)

    No real carb cleaner is going to be "good" on the seals/gaskets. it's more where you apply the cleaner. Advance Auto Parts store brand carb cleaner is what I normally use. I used to use CRC... but when you are going through over 1 can per carb... the cost difference is staggering, and they all seem to function about the same. Also, filling the bowls with streight seafoam for a day or so is good too it really softens that hard varnish up. I have been told berkebyle (sp?) 3+3 carb cleaner is not as hard on plastic

    q- tips, cotton balls, pipe cleaners, and cotton make up application pads are super good for cleaning too.

    And for the hardest part of carb cleaning.... the enrichment circuit jet in the float bowl. you play guitar, you probably already have the best tool for the job... .009 or .010 high e string....
     
  30. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Right on man, I'll have to read a bit more on this. I'm so lost when it comes to these carbs! And yea, I planned on using a high e string for the master cylinder hole too! :)
     
  31. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    On another note, I just picked up a carbon/gasket scraper. Its like a long screwdriver with a flat end. Not too sharp. Would this be good for removing the remaining gasket on the block? I'll be replacing the gasket when I do the valve clearances.

    I hope I didnt just waste 7 bucks! :)
     
  32. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    21,283
    Likes Received:
    418
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Rural SE Michigan 60 miles N of Motown
    The gasket scraper wasn't a waste of money by any stretch.

    However, since you have an '82, which probably has a YICS motor, you won't need a gasket scraper unless a PO used some sort of sealer that will need removing. The molded-rubber YICS valve cover gasket generally doesn't peel apart upon removal like a "conventional" gasket.

    There are plenty of gaskets on the bike that you may need the scraper for at some point however.
     
  33. kleraudio

    kleraudio Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Erie, CO
    Oh Ok, that's good news. Would be nice if I don't need it for this job, but I'll keep it around for other gaskets :) The reason I bought it in the first place is because that gasket on there now looks melted... Not sure if thats normal or not?

    Thanks again Fitz. I need to remember to click that attach signature button when I post. I do indeed have an 82 with a YICS.

    Fitz, I noticed you really polished your valve cover in that Airhead write up of yours. What was the process? I've never wetsanded before but would love for that chrome to "pop".

    PS: I don't have an impact driver, so lets hope I can get those screws out to turn the engine manually.
     

Share This Page