1980 XJ650 Turbo bobber project.

Budget ($3500) 1980 XJ650 Turbo bobber project.

Very keen to get this up and running parts so far include 1x 1980 XJ650 and a complete 1983 XJ650 turbo motor, Iv spent $864, $400 for the bike with rego, $400 for the turbo motor and turbo and $64 for steel and a couple of bends (I don't have any cool tools just a Mig/Tig welder, 100mm angle grinder a crappy bench grinder a cheep drill a couple of files and a hacksaw). Any advice would be much appreciated, Cheers.

 

Wanted parts cont.

 

Wanted parts cont.

 

Wait...... Rum and cola in a can?! Tell me more of this magical land in which you live.

 

Haha, Bundy red is real rum yum. The plan is to keep the whole build under $3500 (cost so far is $864 with rego).use the N/A motor and replace the rings was rebuilt 20,000km ago (I would like to use a 9.5:1 compression ratio) and get the head re chambered for higher compression http://www.ptr.com.au/cylinder-heads/, Also salvage the gearbox out of the turbo engine for my motor. and will also be running a fuel mix of 75% BP98 and 25% Toluene for about a 104RON fuel, quad 34mm powerjet carbies with a Water/Methanol/Nitro-methane injection system from the USA and a IGNITECH SPARKER RACING 3 adjustable TCI so boost and high compression should not be a problem.

 

I can't wait to see how this comes together!!!!

 

So an inside job for today I need to make up a blank off plate for the pressure relief valve and reed valve set up. I plan on running a billet waste gate actuator, boost controller and BOV so I can crank the boost up hehe, Don't need any leaks.
How much boost can one of these freshly rebuilt turbos handle 18-22psi?

 

https://www.conti-online.com/www/motorcycle_de_en/themes/motorcycletires/enduro/tkc_80_en.html New tyres?

 

I believe the Turbo Seca had forged pistons and a beefed up crank to handle the stresses when under boost, and that was with the 8.0:1 compression ratio. At least that's what Yamaha felt was necessary, you might need to do a lot more to beef up the bottom end as well, it it's even possible for it to handle the kind of power you're looking to get. Knocking won't be the only issue, if you are successful in boosting up to 22psi, and bumping up the compression ratio, you may surpass the limits of the components of even the turbo engine.

Also, there is a secondary oil pump for pumping oil through the turbo, and a knock sensor that is screwed onto the front. You'd likely need to transplant those parts into the N/A engine.

I know the turbo transmission is shorter than my 750 Seca transmission, not sure how it compares with the 650 seca.

The turbo itself can probably handle any amount of boost that it can produce. Definitely rebuild it if it is at all questionable though.

Also note that the reed valve set-up bypasses the compressor when there isn't enough boost from it to overcome atmospheric pressure. These little turbos take time to spool up, so if you don't feed it bypassed air, the compressor will act as a serious restriction until it does.

 

Cheers mate the compression ratios are 8.2:1 turbo and 9.2:1 for the N/A, I do like the idea of the read valve set up I have never seen it on a turbo application (only on 2smokers) and I do have a complete 83 Turbo motor that I have just finished pulling apart and can use for parts (may just use the bottom end and keep my cases), Forged pistons I was looking for but seams they are not made any more, I was looking at the weisco site and they do custom ones (It will blow my budget but may be worth it ay) and apparently the turbo gears are taller fingers crossed because I would love to use a Yamaha Virago XV535 rear hub and build some rims (there goes my budget again hehe).

Also front wheel options all these use 15mm front axles so should not be a major issue to fit depending on width. Now just to narrow it down to just spoke wheels.

Honda CR125 R 79-84, XL200 R 83-84, XR200 81-91 & 93-97, CR250
R 78-84, NX250 88-90, XL250 R 82-87, CL250 S 78-81, XR250
79-80, XR250 L 91-96, XR250 R 81-82 & 84-97, CR450 81, CR480 R
82-83, CR500 R 84, XL500 R 82, XL500 S 79-81, XR500 79-80,
XR500 R 81-84, XL600 R 83-87, XR600 R 85-92, Honda CB125 TT
90, XL175 73-78, CM185 Twinstar 78-79, CM200 T 80-82, TR200 G
86, CB250 Nighthawk 91-92, CM250 82-84, CMX250 Rebel 85-86,
CMX250 Rebel 96-97, CR250 M 73-76, VTR250 90, XL250 72-76,
CB360 74-76, CB400 75-81, CM400 A/B/E 79-81, NS400 RG 96-97,
CB450 65-74, CB450 SC Nighthawk 82-85, CB450 Tc 82, CM450
A/C/E 82-84, CMX450 C Rebel 86, Kawasaki KDX250 80-81, KL250
78-79, KX250 75-81, KZ305 B2/B3 87-88, KX400 A1/A2 75-76,
KZ400 A/D/S 74-78, KZ400 C1/H1 78-79, KDX420 80-81, KX420
80-81, KZ440 80-83, K440 D6 84, EN450 85-90, Suzuki GS250 T
80-81, GT250 73-77, GT380 73-77, GN400 80-82, GS400, GSF400
Bandit 91-93, GS425 79, GS450 82-83, GS500 89-97, GT500 76-77,
RE5 75-76, RG500 86, GS550 All, GSX600 F Katana 89-97, GR650
D/XD/E/F Tempter 83-85, GS650 G/GL 81-83, GS650 EX/EZ 81-82,
GS650 M 83, LS650 P 96-97, LS650 Savage 86-88, XN85 Turbo
86-88, GV700 85, GS750 77-86, GSX750 F Katana 89-97, GSX-R750
85-86, GT750 73-77, VS750 Intruder 85-91, VS800 92-97, VX800
90-93, GS850 79-83, GS1000 78-81, GS1100 Chain & Shaft 80-84,
GSX-R1100 86, GS1150 84-86, GV1200 Madura 85-86, GV1400
Cavalcade 86-88, XS1400 GL 84-87 & 96-97, Yamaha RD250 73-74,
XV250 88-90, XS360 76-77, FZR400 88-89, RD400 79, XS400 77-81,
XS400 Maxim/Seca 82-83, XS400 S 80-82, XJ550 R 81-83, XZ550
Vision 82-83, FJ600 84-85 & 89, FZ600 86-88, FZR600 R 89-95,
SRX600 C 86, YX600 Radian 86-90, XJ650 80-83, FJ700 Maxim X
85-86, FZ750 85-88, FZR750 87-88, FZX750 Fazer 86-87, XJ750
81-84, XV750 Virago 81-87, XV750 90-98, XS850 80-81, XJ900 R
Seca 83, XV920 Virago 81, FZ1000 87-88, XV1000 84-85, FJ1100
84-85, XV1100 86-98, FJ1200 86-93, Kawasaki KX125 B1/B2 82-83
(right), KX125 C1 84, KDX200 A 83-85, KDX200 C 86-88, KDX200 E
89-94, KDX200 95-97, KZ200 A1/A2 78-79, KDX220 H 97, EL250
88-94, EX250 Ninja 86-90 & 92-97, KDX250 82-84, KXD250 D
91-94, KLX250 R 94-96, KL250 D KLR 85-97 (right), KX250 82-84
(right), KZ250 G LTD 80-81, KZ250 82-83 & 85, KLX300 97, EX305
B1-B3 83-85, KZ400 C2 81, EX500 A1-A7 87-93, EX500 D1-D4
94-97, KX500 A 83-84 (right), ZL600 B2/B3 96-97, KLX650 C1-C4
93-96, KLX650 A1-A3 93-96, KL650 87-97 (right), Suzuki RM125
81-86, PE175 82-84, TS200 R 91-93, RM250 81-86, TS250 71-76,
DR350 90-96, DR350 S 90-97, TS400 72-77 (left), RM500 83-84,
DR600 85-89, DR650 S 90-95, DR750 S 88-89 (left), DR800 S 90
(left), Yamaha YZ125 81-91, IT175 77-83, RT180 91-93 & 95-97,
DT200 85-86, DT200 R 89-90 & 95, IT200 84-87, TW200 87-98,
WR200 92, TT225 86-87, XT225 92-96, DT250 74-79, IT250 77-83,
MX250 73-75, SR250 80-82, TDR250 89-90, TT250 80-83, WR250 Z
91, XT250 80-84, XV250 94-96, YZ250 77-91, YZ250 WR 89-90,
TT350 85, TY350 85-86, XT350 85-87 & 92/94/96, DT360 74, MX360
73-74, YZ360 74-75, DT400 75-78, IT400 77-79, MX400 75, YZ400
76-79, IT425 80, IT465 81-82, YZ465 80-81, IT490 83-84, YZ490
82-90, SC500 73, TT500 77-78, XT500 76-81, XV500 Virago 83-85,
XT550 82-83, TT600 83-86, Honda CB500 71-76, CX500 78-82,
CX500 Tc Turbo 82, FT500 Ascot 82, GL500 81-82, VF500 C Magna
V30 84-85, VF500 F Interceptor 84-86, VT500 C Shadow 83-84,
VT500 FT 83-84, CB550 F 75-77, CB550 K, CB500 SC Nighthawk
83-84, CBX550 FD 83, CB650 C 79-82, CB650 SC Nighthawk 82-85,
CX650 T/E 83-84, GL650 I 83, CB750 A 76-78, CB750 C 80-82,
CB750 F 75-78, CB750 F/K/L 79, CB750 K 69-78, CB750 SC 80-85,
VF750 C Magna 82-88, VF750 F Interceptor 83-85, VF750 S Sabre
82-85, VT750 C 83-86, VT800 88, CB900 C 80-82, CB900 F 81-82,
GL1000 Goldwing L 75-79, VF1000 F 84-85, VF1000 R 84-85,
CBX1050 79-82, CB1100 F 83, GL1100 A/I 80-83, VF1100 C, 83-86,
VF1100 S 84-85, VT1100 C 85-86, GL1200 A/I/K/SE 84-87,
Kawasaki EN500 Vulcan 90-96, EN500 C 96-97, KZ550 A 80-83,
KZ550 C 80-83, KZ550 D 81, KZ550 F1/F2 83-84, KZ550 H1/H2
82-83, KZ550 M1 83, ZR550 B1-B4 90-93, ZX550 A 84-86, ZL600
A1/A2 Eliminator 86-87, ZX600 Ninja A1-A3 85-87, ZX600 C1-C4
88-91, ZX600 C8-C10 95-97, KZ650 H1-H3 81-83, KZ750 F1 83,
KZ750 H1/H4 80-83, KZ750 K1/K2 83-84, KZ750 L Supersport
83-84, KZ750 N Spectre, KZ750 R 82, KZ750 S1 82, VN750 Vulcan
86-97, ZX750 A1-A3, ZX750 E1/E2 Turbo 84-85, VN800 95-97,
ZL900 A1/A2 85-86, ZX900 A1-A3 84-86, KZ1000 J1-J3 81-83,
KZ1000 K 81-82, KZ1000 M1 81, KZ1000 P 82-97, KZ1000 R 83,
ZG1000 Concours 86-93, ZL1000 A1 87, ZX1000 Ninja 86-87,
KZ1100 A1-A3 81-83, KZ1100 B1/B2 81-82, KZ1100 L1/R1 83,
KZ1100 R1 84, ZN1100 B1/B2 84-85, ZX1100 A1/A2 83-84, ZG1200
Voyager 86-97, VN1500 Vulcan 87-97, VN1500 B 87-90

 

Whoops, yeah I was mis-remembering that. Checked my manual and you are right.

I don't have have any engine rebuilding experience, but couldn't you have bumped up the compression ratio of the turbo engine by shaving down the block? And even do it incrementally, as in put it together with an 8.2 compression ratio, tune it, then tear it down and try to eek more out of it?

I'm also not sure how the oil cooler compares between the N/A 650 in your market and the Turbo Seca in performance, but it's definitely shaped different. Oil cooling is going to be very important for the turbo.

Are you going to plumb the turbo like they did in the factory, behind the engine? I'm not sure if your frame mods could accommodate that. Or bring it much more closer to the exhaust ports? I've seen some XJ Turbo custom that put the turbo on the side, plumbed new exhaust, and basically left it unfiltered. The Yamaha design isn't the best performance-wise, but it does handle a lot of practicalities, such as the filtering and bypassing of the turbo when boost is low.

 

Hmm great idea, I am actually a Chef by trade so I am used to cooking food not motors hehe, But have done a 12 month auto coarse and always had a keen interest in wreaking stuff hehe, Maybe use a combination of 2x heads 2x blocks and 2x head gaskets maybe even head shims, all with slightly different specs to tweak the compression and make it more tuneable, Cheers mate. The pistons look the same and bore and stroke are identical, I would visually assume that Yamaha lowered the compression with rechambered head and thicker head gasket ay.

Now the oil cooler? I want to use something like this http://www.aliexpress.com/item/34-R...COOLER-FLAT-FILTER-ADAPTER-BK/2034215673.html it may be one size to big though I will try and take some measurements today ay. Oh and a electric scavenging oil pump. Also the turbo one is there too.

And for the turbo plumbing that will be a mission in its self hehe, I have faith that the exhaust guy down here will love to be creative with this I want it mounted as close to the head as possible with the shortest pipe work we can mannage, and on further reaserch on http://tmioa22687.yuku.com/forums/10/Yamaha-Seca-650-Turbo/Yamaha-Seca-650-Turbo?page=1#.VScBTPnLeQk I will leave the read valve set up and put a pod filter on it and the turbo and either tweak the relieve valve or remove it would be the best option for now.

 

Factory balancing?

 

The original air filter setup is bulky and meant to sit behind the engine in the frame. If you move the Turbo forward, then you'll likely need to move the filter assembly forward also, as the compressor and turbine go together. So carefully consider the plumbing and how it will fit into your modified frame. Longer intake plumbing will restrict the flow into the engine, and can significantly increase turbo lag.

I said that the yamaha design was practical, because it really tries to balance the shortcomings on both the exhaust and intake side. The longer exhaust plumbing allows the collector to merge the pulses from the four cylinders into a much more steady flow. There is only one filter for air, and compressed and non-compressed air both go through the same filter, with basic plumbing handling the bypass.

I guess a good question is how practical do you want this motorcycle to be? Do you just want to build it, put it on a dyno, maybe drag race a couple of times and won't mind if it blows up? Or would you like to make it a real show piece that you can ride for a long time?

Since you say you don't have a lot of building experience, but it sounds like you've got some training and help with the engine tuning side of things, I'd advise you to take the stock turbo engine as far as it will go by attempting to fuel inject it and bringing up the boost. Others on this site and on that TMIOA forum have gotten the carbuerated turbo up to 18 psi with no reported ill effects. Those two things will be a big enough project in itself, and if you are successful, you'll have a bike that has way more power than the stock frame can handle.

Then, if you aren't satisfied, you can try to take modify the engine. Be warned, I was shooting the breeze with a motorcycle breaker in Baltimore who had a pair of the Kawasaki GPZ750 turbos, one modified for racing and one for riding. I mentioned pushing the boost past the capabilities of the "Power-Up Kit". He warned of a buddy who had a turbo seca and he was always trying to modify his bike to beat the GPZ750 turbo, one step at a time, bumping up the boost, shaving down the head, porting, jetting, tearing down the engine, etc. And always tried to egg him on for another run. Until one day he didn't anymore.

These engines are pretty tough, but boosting them puts incredible stress on the engines. Just think, 14 psi of boost is doubling atmospheric pressure, basically doubling the power.

 

Honestly I just like to build stuff so have not thought that far ahead it will probs just be a sunny day bike or sunday rider or maybe just sell it for a new project hehe, But I am giving it lots of thought as this is a big project ay, http://xj4ever.com/catalog/e-6-cylinders.html#top Thinking of getting, HCP12449 Aftermarket standard-bore CYLINDER LINER for all XJ650 Turbo engines, each: $ 99.95,
HCP12449SET4 Aftermarket standard-bore CYLINDER LINERS, set of 4: $ 359.95
and press them into the N/a motor STD bore will have stronger cylinder walls. And also my 1980 motor will have no YICS (don't really think its needed on a turbo or with modern carburetors).

Question 1) One would assume that the aftermarket turbo std bore cylinder liners would also be stronger than the original items too would that be corect?

 

More ideas decisions decisions hehe. http://www.flatlanderracing.com/customparts.html
CUSTOM Cranks

• We will custom build you 4340 Billet Crankshafts for any domestic vehicle.
  (Minimum of 3 cranks in any stroke, rod pin and mains).

CUSTOM Connecting Rods

• We will design you custom 4340 Chrome Moly H-Beam Connecting Rods with ARP S2000 Rod Bolts. (Minimum of 10 rod sets in any length, big end and pin size). Light weights may be possible - please ask.

CUSTOM Piston Sets

• Forged Pistons for any stroke, bore or compression ratio. These can be used for street/strip, injected blowers or turbo charged. (No Minimum, 1 set OK!!!).
• CUSTOM PISTONS: Pricing (per set)
  
  PISTON Pricing: (final price depends on completed custom piston design & specs)4 Cyl: $499-$599
  
  
• Knife-Edging Services
  • Give your engine a boost with our Knife-Edging service! Get More POWER, Quicker Revving, Let your crank cut through oil easier, and take some weight off (2-3 lbs) for faster RPM's!
    
    4 Cylinder = $359.99

 

If your photo above refers to the holes drilled in the crank webbing, then yes, that is how crankshafts are balanced.

Instead of going to all the trouble to have a standard engine turned into a turbo engine, why not hunt around for a turbo bike to play with? Looking at what you intend to do I think you'll come out way ahead if you start with a complete road-ready XJ650T. The pistons, bores, and conrods you're looking at will cost more than what a good example of a 650 turbo typically auctions for, and there are a fair number of them sitting in boneyards in the U.S. if you just want to get an engine.
Also, if that engine in the pic above is the one you're working on it has had water sitting in it for some time. While the main bearings look pretty good, every roller bearing in the case should be considered to be suspect at best.

From a purely fun-project standpoint, your plan is a sound one. I just think there are more cost-effective ways to get to where you are wanting to go.

 

Yeh cheers mate that's why I am here hehe, Cheers mate. I have two The bike I am pulling down ATM is a 1983 XJ650LJ (stitting for ages complete with turbo) and I also have an 1980 XJ650KO aparentlly rebuilt 20,000km ago ay that is getting the bobber treatment. I was initially hopeing to build one good motor just from these but we will see, I don't want to waste my time building junk.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/zlv8ucahb6gf6bh/Tuning_for_speed-Phil_Irving.pdf Bloody good read.