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Electrical issues... please HELP!

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Pat K., Jun 24, 2015.

  1. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    I work nights. Stopped on way home got multi meter... Had to at least open it give it a test run... Let's back way up now to the 1st test done on an ignition system, the new battery I purchased 2 months ago.. 10.55 volts.
    Isn't that low? Considering its basically new? I was expecting to see closer to 12. Maybe I'm over thinking again. It's been a long week.
    Off to bed now. Supposed to get a lot of rain here over this weekend. For once I'm excited for shitty weather... Garage time! Cold beer, Haines manual & new multi meter VS a stubborn old girl from Japan. Wish me luck.
     
  2. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Exactly. Yes. Single spark issue only happens after it dies and won't start. I know everything is working and bike will start when I do not have the single spark upon hitting kill switch.
     
  3. Stumplifter

    Stumplifter Well-Known Member

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    Disclaimer:
    Electricity is magic to me.

    10.55 volts is low. It may be enough to crank but I would put battery on a tender, give yourself the best starting point possible. A 2month battery should go to a fully charged state (12+ volts) and stay there .
     
  4. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Check the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine running. We need to know the voltage at idle, at 2,000 RPM, and at 3,000 RPM.
     
  5. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi, I've just been trying to get together a few tests I could then tell you how to replicate (my model is a 1993 XJ900F - but I believe your electrics are similar)?

    On the basis that you would be unlucky to have suffered a failed TCI module, I have been trying to find ways of fairly confidently 'ruling everything else out' before suggesting you 'bite the bullet' and replace it!??!... In the course of that I have replicated a 'failed pickup' (open circuit 1/4 or 2/3 alone...) scenario; and I DID get my TCI module to switch the coils 'on' - replicating your 'single spark' output on operating the 'kill' switch!!!...

    This does suggest that the 'crankshaft rotation sensor' is triggered by just one of the two pickup coils; i.e. if you 'lose' one it affects two cylinders - if you 'lose' the other it stops the bike dead (as your 'coil protection' facility quits, and with it the ability for the TCI 'output' to go 'open-circuit' at all - rendering the coil pack 'powered up' permanently...)?...

    What you need to do, therefore (now that you have a multimeter...) is this:-
    Unplug the left (three wire) connector from the TCI unit, set your test meter to 'Ohms' (make sure your test leads are in the correct sockets on the meter!!!), and check between the black and grey wires - then, also, the black and orange (the wires to the connector - NOT the pins on the TCI they engage with!...).... You SHOULD get readings (set the meter to the 'range' that reads most consistently) of around 120 ohms (+/- 20 percent) - and BOTH should be fairly similar?! If that checks out, start the bike - and run it until it quits. Then do the same again: if either pickup coil circuit has greatly changed - especially if 'sky-high' ('open-circuit') or very low ('short-circuit'), the pickups are knackered!... If not, I'd bet your TCI is the problem!??!... There do seem to be several on eBay at present? However, do be careful that you are not substituting one faulty secondhand part for another!... Hope that 'sorts' it!??!...
    Best Regards, Andy

    P.S. In case your wiring colours are not the same as mine, one wire is 'common' to both pickups. If your colours should be different, you are looking for similar readings across two pairs: it's just that you need to identify the 'common' wire (the equivalent of the black...) - and so check between it and the two others in turn?!!... Do tell me how you get on!...
     
  6. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Just one other thing. It is very common for TCI pickups to 'go down' when your engine warms up - then (temporarily...) 'recover' when it cools down - which is why I wondered about them in the first place! I was 'sidetracked' by not taking into account the possibility of the 'coil protection' function operating from one pickup coil alone - so logically expected failure of one or the other to affect just one 'pair' of cylinders (1 & 4 or 2 & 3)!...
    Assuming, after all this, that it IS a duff pickup coil rather than the TCI unit?!!?
    Andy
     
  7. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    On the 750 air cooled I believe the pick-up coil spec is 650 ohms +/- 20%. I would also add to check them to ground.

    I had this discussion with what I consider a quite knowledgeable member sometime ago. He assured me an open circuit in the pick-up would not cause the TCI / Coil self protect circuitry to fault, and continuously drive the coils. Very interesting, maybe I should try it on my 82 to see if it will duplicate.

    Hopefully, member advice on battery voltage will yield some results. The TCI is reportedly very sensitive to voltage, and the 10.5V battery voltage is quite low.
     
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  8. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    10.5 volts is what i would expect to see on a good battery with one shorted cell. if this is a wet cell battery see if you can verify that all six cells bubble when it's on a charger. if it's not a wet cell you're going to have to use the 10A scale on that meter.
     
  9. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hope my TCI module is not about to go t**s up!? I was 'fiddling about' attempting to 'rule out' a faulty TCI module by getting a 'healthy' one replicate our friend's 'quit' symptoms; and the fact that I seemed to achieve it turned my attention back to the pickups. You're right to draw attention to the importance of 'infinite' resistance to ground from ANY pickup wire - also the fact that specified readings may well be different from those on my XJ900F!??!... I do believe our friend has a recent battery; and access to a Haynes manual (in which case the specs. should be at the beginning of Chapter 4?!...)?... A low battery voltage reading may suggest a regulator problem - leading to dropping voltage as the bike warms up (especially bearing in mind the recent battery...)? This I suggest, however, should NOT lead to 'permanent power-up' of the coils in 'failure' mode?!!?... Yes, TCI units 'like' a 'healthy voltage' to the supply side!... I have fitted an additional relay to avoid 'voltage-drop' through the ignition and 'kill' switches; fed from its own fused supply. I've also fitted a larger and much better quality fuse box - to facilitate 'fully independent' and 'appropriate' protection for everything! (One fuse clip had melted away from the plastic before I bought the bike - so I've 'upgraded' the system, which includes 'relay-switching' the lights, etc..) I normally see - having carried out all these various improvements - consistent 13(+)V readings (with the engine running...) at all points under load (HID plus LED lights)!...

    If our friend's charging output/regulation is indeed suspect, and the voltage as low as stated, I would expect this to seriously affect lighting performance?!? He has not indicated that this has been a problem as yet - but 10.55 volts at the battery would even possibly indicate a 'dead' cell on his 2 month old battery?!? Maybe the system has been consistently overcharging - and has been 'cooking' things, including a new battery and the TCI module?!!!?... Before doing ANYTHING else at all I would check the voltage at the battery with the engine running: if above 14.9 volts switch off and change the regulator/rectifier unit - FAST!

    If consistent overcharging has 'cooked' a cell, the battery will no longer be acting as a 'buffer' - potentially leading to excessive voltages throughout the system!?! Has the bike been tending to blow bulbs lately?... I have an Acumen alarm system which tells me if it 'sees' excess voltage at any time: a very worthwhile investment indeed!...
    Best Wishes, Andy
     
  10. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    there's a white 3 conductor plug that brings AC from the alternator to the regulator. these are known to melt from several problems. that would be a good thing to look at
     
  11. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Mine was fairly grim! If the 3-way goes short-circuit, it will likely burn out the stator coils: if open-circuit (on just one wire) the unit will 'single phase' - vastly reducing output.... Any more than that: no power at all! The 2-way is the 'exciter' in-feed; and any problems here will produce symptoms similar to knackered brushes!

    I'm beginning to wonder if an undetected overcharging situation has been the root of Pat's gremlins - and the bike has slowly been 'cooking' batteries and components? It is a little unfortunate that bike charging systems seem to 'over' rather than not 'do the business' when things go wrong!?! In view of their cheapness and availability these days, I'm seriously considering the fitment of digital voltmeters to my bikes - despite the 'all-dancing' alarm systems!...
    We'll get him back on the road in the end!
    Andy
     
  12. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    oops... sorry
     
  13. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
  14. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi, I have to say I was doing some very quick checks indeed to hopefully 'rule out' the pickups - before suggesting Pat K. should go ahead and replace his most expensive component in the system, i.e. the TCI module!!!... The information we have thus far does also suggest that the electrics in general, sidestand relay, etc., are ALL duly functioning as they should - though the revelation that a 'new' battery is only yielding 10.55 volts would indicate a plausible, even likely, instigating cause; namely overcharging/overvoltage which may well have been 'cooking' everything over some considerable period?!!?...

    I was also 'rushing' to get enough 'written up' to give our friend 'something to go on' over the weekend (in between long days motorsport officiating in succession...); as I knew he had just 'armed himself' with a multimeter, and so was far better placed to make some meaningful progress....

    My 'quick checks' involved dissecting a multiway connector off an old loom, and plugging three terminations (with their attached 'fly leads') onto the TCI 'pickup circuit' pins. I was then 'open' circuiting, 'short' circuiting, and 'shorting them to ground' in rapid succession; turning on and off at the 'kill' switch comparatively quickly with each configuration!... Once I seemingly replicated the 'one single spark phenomenon' I had fulfilled the purpose of the exercise - namely to demonstrate that the pickups were demanding of more thorough investigation before 'biting the bullet' and replacing the TCI module!?!...

    If your submission that 'faulty pickups would not cause permanent power-up of the coils' is indeed correct - then, I think, we must also have formed the conclusion that Pat's TCI module has to be faulty?!?... This being the case, it is entirely possible that my 'single spark observation' could have been a 'red herring' resulting from 'surge conditions' brought about by my rapidly flicking on/off at the 'kill' switch - particularly with my 'battery voltage to TCI and coil packs' relay modification?!??

    I hope we may have persuaded Pat K. that electrics are not such a 'dreaded black art' after all - and I trust that we have perhaps dispelled a degree of the mystique?!!?... It is crucial to note that a 'duff' battery puts the regulator/rectifier at risk: likewise a faulty charging system may 'boil' any new battery - as well as 'over-volt' the whole of the system!... Accordingly if ANY of these components are to be renewed, it follows that ALL the others should be thoroughly checked out - and replaced as necessary?

    If you have a 'Haynes' manual and access to a multimeter (or two in some cases: at least a second DC voltmeter?...), there can be NO excuse for NOT doing this!!! Many electronic components will be 'bruised' by over-voltage - and there really are enough of them on any bike built since 1975/80 to make such omission a dire false economy!

    I don't think I know of a 'Haynes' manual which does not explain in very clear, easy to follow, steps, how to thoroughly check out your bike's charging system - so why not 'take the plunge' and give it a go?... Do use a 'decent' multimeter WITH on-board fusing (so if you DO get anything 'horribly wrong' a fuse 'clears' - rather than the test leads/probes becoming incandescent with your paws wrapped oh so tightly around them!!!...), do make sure the test leads are in the correct sockets on the meter for the test being undertaken (if you've just been checking 'amperes' and switch to 'volts' without relocating the meter leads, there may be an 'interesting firework display' and/or a loud bang!...), and be particularly careful to ensure that test probes 'pushed into the backs of' connected multiways, etc., do not touch adjacent wires, pins, or ANY surrounding metalwork (or you may find them 'a little shorter' than when you started out!?!...)!!!... Happy testing!... Andy
     
  15. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    Wow... I feel the way Pat did (does?) regarding electrons... A dreaded black art indeed!
    On a post that's trying to encourage him (and me indirectly), we find:
    and:
    Yikes. Lots of useful info, but I think I'll clean my carbs or something simple!
     
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  16. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    I do a lot with 'specialist' vehicles (self-builds, 'one-offs' etc.) and the 'technical' side of motorsport (safety, etc.); and in the course of that I frequently notice first-rate engineering/preparation 'let down' by a 'dog's breakfast' of electrical systems!... As someone who 'has never had a problem' with electrical/electronic circuits, I find it quite difficult to understand how/why so many otherwise fantastically competent engineers get this area 'wrapped around their necks' to the extent that they clearly do!!?... The subject evidently does remain one of mystique - and unrelentingly very much a 'black art' to a great proportion of motoring/motorsport/motorcycling buffs!

    I promise you that the 'basics' ARE really simple: you will NOT get electrocuted by a 12 volt bike system - BUT you DO need to be careful with the ignition HT output! (It is certainly NOT a good idea to 'get wrong side of this' should you have a pacemaker fitted!!!...) The ONE thing you must always be consistently aware of is that ANY half-decent automotive (car/bike, etc.) battery represents a formidable source of energy SHOULD you 'short' circuit it!... THINK: is there any chance that the piece of wire I am holding in my hands could 'get across' the two battery terminals without a fuse 'in series with it' EVER?!? (IF the engine is running this also applies to the regulator output - AND the three alternator leads to the rectifier/regulator unit!) WERE you to get a piece of wire having a 'cross-section' of the average in your harness - or indeed your test cables/probes - DIRECTLY across your battery terminals then it WOULD get VERY hot VERY quickly; OR - there might be a flash and a bang as the bits making immediate contact instantly vanish, flying everywhere in molten form (so effectively acting as an 'ad hoc open fuse' of rather larger capacity than is really desirable!)!!!

    For obvious reasons, I generally attempt to avoid this if the wiring in question runs up under the fuel tank - or should my test probes be ANYWHERE WITHIN 'shouting distance' of those four fuel-laden thingys called carburettors. Having said that, you would be VERY unlucky to achieve this: If your bike is wired anything like mine - as, I suspect, it will be - there is a 'main' 30A. fuse within the box which 'protects' the main battery 'source feed' off the starter solenoid.... Unless you are testing directly off the battery or the starter solenoid feed terminal you should 'blow' this IF you get things horribly wrong: you will likely get a small shower of sparks for your trouble into the bargain - but hopefully not along with it sufficient 'heating effect' to create lasting damage? TIP: I swap this out for a 10A 'spare' while doing electrical testing. That way I know it will 'blow' before any real damage is done, should I get it wrong and inadvertently create a 'short' circuit?!

    Years ago I made myself up an 'idiot-proof protection device' - recommended for any electrical novice 'learning the routines' of testing/fault-finding. It consists of a heavy duty in-line fuse holder, two (battery) ring terminals, a length of wire with a 'booted' (fully insulated) crocodile clip, a short nut and bolt with 'snap together' cover as per the battery terminals, and an insulated in-line heavy duty 'pluggable' connector. The + lead is disconnected from the battery so that the in-line fuse holder may be wired 'in series' with it; the bolt connecting it to the main cable being protected (from any contact with the 'grounded' frame, etc.) by the 'snap together' cover. The cable to the insulated crocodile clip leads off from this end too. The heavy duty in-line 'pluggable' connector leads go to the 'ring terminals' also: any attempt to use the starter would, of course, overload and 'clear' the in-line fuse; so this provides a convenient bypass arangement.... (Just please don't forget to disconnect it again - once the engine has started!...) The in-line fuse can be selected to 'blow' at whatever capacity should not 'fry' the component being tested - IF any mistake is made, or if the actual problem is a latent 'short' circuit somewhere?!!?...

    Just a 'quickie' about multimeters: if you are checking volts or ohms the meter goes 'across' the component/circuit. If you are checking currents (ampères) the meter is 'in series' with the component/circuit - so passing the 'power' straight through (with minimal resistance...)! If you forget to re-patch the meter connections after such a test - and then go to test battery voltage, alternator/regulator output, etc. - then, of course, you are effectively connecting the said component to a 'short' circuit: if your meter has on-board fusing, that fuse will 'clear/blow' instantly - duly performing its function to 'protect' the 'fault' situation. If not, smoke may be arising!??!... We've all done it at one stage or another!!!...

    You see, I hope, that it's not that difficult really?... Of course it is true that electrical faults can, AND DO, cause fires - but if you understand how 'short' circuits and/or an 'overload' might arise, you should have it licked?!! Yes, it sounds dramatic - and is - if you get it wrong; but the whole purpose of this is to help you avoid that! My father dropped a fairly heavy spanner across a 6 volt tractor battery when I was a kid: the spanner went flying up in the air, molten lead and sulphuric acid exploded all over, and when the spanner landed (sizzling in a puddle...) the hefty shank was a strange 'U' shape and part of one jaw was just no longer present!!! (My Art Master at school graded it as excellent modern sculpture!)

    Father, of course, created a classic 'short' circuit; and when the spanner landed (the steel one - not him!...) it was (to quote my grandfather - a blacksmith...) around 'full welding' heat!!!... DON'T DO IT - but if you think there is any chance at all you might, then make sure there is an appropriately-rated fuse which will melt safely - before anything else does!... Happy fault-finding!
    Andy
     
  17. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    you can eliminate most of your flash,bang, smoke fear during testing by replacing the battery with a battery charger on a two or ten amp setting
     
  18. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi 'Polock' - just a 'quickie' (as it's British Grand Prix Weekend at Silverstone; and I'm 'backwards and forwards like a yo-yo' at present - ten minutes away on a pedal-cycle - as part of the 'technical' sound and lighting crew for the concert programme).

    A battery charger with 'built-in' readily accessible 'output' fuse certainly has its uses: I have several around - and the 5A. fuses will readily 'blow' before damage is done should one 'get it wrong' and 'short' them out!... There is, however, one major caveat when dealing with the increasing prevalence of electronic systems: battery chargers when connected alone (in place of the battery) generally do not provide a sufficiently 'smooth' power source for the electronics to function correctly; and you will very likely find 'all manner of strange things' happening in consequence!??! The battery provides the 'smoothing buffer' to avoid this - but along with it, unless 'fused down' as previously described, sufficient 'juice' to get you into a whole lot of grief if you make mistakes!!! I am in the process of 'upgrading' my bikes to HID 'constantly on' dipped beams - with supplementary switched LED ('Cree') units providing the main/driving beams: these components - generally speaking - 'do not like' battery charger power AT ALL; and I, suffice it to say, was beginning to believe I had been supplied with some 'duff' ones until I duly realized the problem!!!... The lamps were coming on intermittently, not coming on at all, going into 'protect mode' after only a second, etc.; all because - as I am in the process of fabricating a 'custom loom' to cater for these modifications - I had taken the battery off, and decided to 'test power' with a charger!... Because the manner in which my XJ900F is now wired (with the 'direct feed relay' powering TCI and coils) makes it 'dead easy' to do, I have just run a couple of brief experiments - using two different battery chargers as sole power feeds for the ignition (TCI and coil packs) alone: if you 'scope the (orange and grey on my bike) 'coil switching' TCI outputs, it is quite clear that electronics 'do not like' this at all!... Being 'into' sound equipment and 'musical instrument technology' as I am, I also have a 'stabilized' adjustable DC power supply (with built-in 'short' circuit protection, etc.) - and that DOES make an exceptionally useful diagnostic tool: if one is dealing with digital/'CAN-bus' systems (bloody awful idea on any motorcycle - if you ask me!?...), then it is ESSENTIAL!?!...

    Just one other quick important reminder when diagnosing electrics: it is crucial, if running your engine, that the alternator and/or rectifier/regulator ALWAYS should remain 'firmly connected' to a serviceable battery! It is worth keeping a close eye on the main fuse, and/or any in-line 'battery feed' fuse IF you've 'cobbled up' an 'idiot-kit' like mine, when the engine is running to check that neither has failed?! I have a 'SBC' bulb-holder ACROSS my in-line fuse holder - so a 5 or 21 watt bulb therein will 'glow' should that fuse 'clear' under load!? Unless there is a very good reason not to I put 30A. (rather than the 10A. substituted for 'test' purposes...) fuses back into 'feed' systems whenever I am about to run the engine: IF the bike should 'suddenly' start misfiring in such circumstances, SWITCH OFF - and double-check any 'main' fusing again!!! It could well be that this fuse has 'blown' - so the battery is 'OUT OF circuit' but the engine is 'self-powering' directly from the charging system? Your misfiring may be due to the electronics 'not liking' the loss of a 'buffering/smoothing' battery - with the accompanying loss of charging voltage stability?!?... You would not want to discover this when the engine quits on losing electrical ignition feed power - just because you have unnecessarily 'f***ed' the rectifier/regulator by failing to notice that the battery had 'disconnected' itself (upon 'clearing' of that fuse...)!... Neither would you want to later find that system over-voltage during the moments leading up to charging system failure also 'fried' your TCI module ('bruising' components sufficiently to precipitate unreliability or failure further down the line?...)!!! I hope all my 'blurb' has given Pat K., or anyone else experiencing electrical 'gremlins' etc., a sufficiently 'boosted' level of confidence and understanding to at least 'have a try' in resolving them?... You learn by doing!...

    I'm off to Silverstone Circuit/Whittlebury Hall any time now: hopefully I won't have another three-phase generating set with a 'dodgy neutral' to contend with! (Anyone 'really into' electrics/electronics 'will have a good laugh at my expense' appreciating the significance of this comment!?!... Yes, I'm running 'digital snakes' and 'DMX512' controlled stage lighting/effects!... Can you just imagine the 'fun and games' a wobbly power supply could cause with this lot?!? In case anyone was wondering - yes, I did identify/locate the problem BEFORE ANY damage was done: I'd give a 'digital' desk around three nanoseconds had I not!!??!)
    Cheers for now, Andy
     
  19. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    Can your prolixity be customised with authentic answerability & strengthened accountabilities, to meet our amorphous challenges ?
     
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  20. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Yes: someone else competing for the 'Golden Bull Award' I see!?.
    .
     

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