Signals not flashing; horn not working when stopped

My turn signals don't flash and my horns don't work when I'm stopped at the lights. I'm trying to do my motorcycle exam and last time, he did not 'approve' of this and I'm trying to fix this before going for my exam.

Now I noticed that it'll flash and the horn will work after 1500 RPM. Do I simply have to change the signal relay - but the horn not working indicates that it might not be isolated to signals only? Perhaps the regulator/rectifier? I talked to my motorcycle shop and they said that the signals should blink.

The only thing I changed was upgraded the front headlight so I'm wondering if there's too much voltage draw.

Simiar thread: http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/turn-signal-problems.73794/#post-481705

 

What is the battery voltage at ~2k RPM? Should be about 14.5 volts.

It's possible that the replacement headlight draws too many amps. There's not many "free" amps on these bikes to begin with. Did the horn and signals work before?

 

Sounds like a low-voltage situation at idle. You can bump the idle speed up to 1500 RPM to get you through the test. The likely source of the undervolt problem is worn alternator brushes. Pull the alternator cover (big round one directly under the carbs on the left side of the engine. three screws), and look at the brush length. There is a wear indicator n the brushes You should also clean the copper traces on the alternator rotor with a hard pencil eraser.

It could also be that the new headlight is drawing too much current as Jayrdoh suggested.

 

after you fix the voltage problem
you may want to consider changing your tail lights to led bulbs as well as the plate bulb, always on and will save you some amps.
what kind of head light did you change to and from?

I got my plate light bulb from superbright part number 67-W15:Natural White $6.95
went to wall mart for the tail/brake light

 

I've cleaned and confirmed brushes are still good on alternator. i've also cleaned the copper traces on the alternator rotor with a hard pencil eraser.

I upgraded to a 'Candlepower Round Headlight' described as '7LAMP w/h4 quartz bulb'.

I'm assuming there's no harm in riding around with 1500RPM idle while I'm doing the test. That's a good idea.

 

Are any modifications required to use LED plate and tail light bulbs? I've read about people having trouble with getting LED's to work and needing to use resistors and such....or is that only with other lights on the bike?

 

LED's are direct swap for brake/tail, plate, and some indicator lights. You can purchase replacement LED bulb assemblies that will install just like an incandescent bulb.

Resistors are needed in turn signal applications for some bikes (XJ's yes) as the flasher needs the correct amperage "load" to function properly.

 

There are other ways to use LED signal lamps than to resort to load resistors (which defeat the point of reducing amperage draw).

 

I use a H4 bulb it is not a problem
you can do the test with out riding around
clean your grounds at battery motor frame and coils
this link discribes what you will be testing for it is near the bottom of the page
The Ultimate Relay, Switch, Sensor, and Diodes Guide

 

I cleaned the copper connectors on the signal relay and it's a no go. the funny thing is, one of the tests that I do is when I just turn the bike ON, w/o starting the engine (therefore, no headlights, no tach/speedometer lights), neither the horn works (it slightly squeeks) or the lights blink.

there was once a time where it would work. Perhaps the voltage on the battery is not high enough. I've had my batteries tested by a motorcycle shop and they said it was fine (for starting the motor).

*** Do you think changing the REGULATOR would help? *** The thing is the REGULATOR changes AC to DC, but when the motorcycle is not started, it's all DC going to the signals and horns. I'm thinking that the initial voltage of the battery needs to be higher.

 

A shop that does not know how to test a voltage regulator, but advises trying to change it out for a new one, is a shop to be avoided.

Besides, regulators typically fail in a way that causes the output voltage to be too high.

Test your alternator coils (I'm assuming the shop didn't)

Scroll down to the last post: http://xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/

There are other tests for the regulator, but I don't have them handy. The main thing to look for is proper outout voltage at the given RPM.

 

Thank you K-moe on the advice on regular and voltage being too high! Mine is fine. NOw I don't have to look at it. Saved me a lot of $$.

Now do you think changing my battery would help this? my battery is 12.8V at rest.... but it seems like my lights/horn need 14.4volts or more to start working, i.e. after 2000+ rpm. I've cleaned

 

Here's an idea- use some test leads and connect the horn directly to a battery. Does it work? That will save a lot of wondering.

 

I suspect that you have voltage drop due to corrosion, or a short somewhere, otherwise everything would be working at idle.

 

is this your headlight?

CandlePower 702212 H4 Headlamps
12Volt - 7in. Round12V quartz halogen lights manufactured by Candlepower come complete with H-4 P43T 60/55W bulbs
Twice the illumination of standard sealed beam
DOT compliant

http://www.ebay.com/itm/702212-CAND...ash=item25ba2fc14a:g:8lYAAOSwJMhXDpQ1&vxp=mtr

haynes book spec you have a 81 650 max



candlepower bulb is pulling 1 (14 volt) to 1.25 (12 volt)more amps on your low beam

 

On my Maxim, the ground for the entire wiring harness is a ring terminal that uses the bolt for the ignition coils to connect to ground. When I first put my bike back together, this connection was not good and nothing worked properly. If you have the same setup, I would pop the tank off and check this.

 

Thanks for tip!.... err... do you have any diagram. Am I just looking to see if a ring terminal is attached to the ignition coils and perhaps clean it up a bit...

 

No diagram but I do have a grainy picture from tear down that shows it.

 

I got a Haynes manual and couldn't find a 'resistance' test for my signal relay. I checked the guide (http://xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/) but no such tests.

Is there any kind of resistance test I can do? Now, the signal only blinks after 2500RPM. But the horn is working after 1300RPM.

 

disconnect your headlight and see if every thing starts working.

 

I just did that. when I disconnected the headlight, the lights are blinking after 2000RPM. So it's not the headlight. is it possible that my signal relay has too much resistance? I tested it last night and the lights blink at 14V after 2000RPM.

 

it is 3.5 ohms for starter relay. what did you get?

I will go test my signal light relay

 

open and clean contacts at this point you should be cleaning any connector you remove
electrical spray and dielectric grease.
have you cleaned the grounds, at motor and frame from battery as well as the battery connection?
clean ground at coils, and ground at pickup coils.

start cleaning the bulb sockets and connectors.

what voltage are you getting at the battery at idle and when lights come on ?
check volts at flasher connectors. and horn.

 

this is the test for flasher relay. I have a 94 ohm reading on my flasher problem is that it is a coil in parrell with a 150 ohm resistor
you have to isolate the contacts to get a true reading of the coil the coil is heavey wire so it is doubtful it has failed
more likely the resistor or cap has failed (timing circuit)
coil is 246 ohms you have to slide an insulator between the contacts
resistor is 150 ohms, capacitor is 1200uf electrolitic


just to be sure the flasher is 2x the size of the other relays

 

^ What he said (about deoxidizing the wiring connectors). You likely have plenty of voltage; it's just not all getting to where it's needed. Think of corrosion as being like holes in a garden hose.

 

have you ohmed out the alternator? what were your results?
what are your battery voltages at idle and 2k rpm?
did you clean all of the grounds as suggested, including ground under cover where pick up ccoils are?
do you have glass fuses or have you upgraded to blades?

can you answer in detail please it would help a lot.

 

I saw this picture on my Haynes manual as well. But wondering, do I turn ON bike, disconnect the started relay, use voltmeter:

1) connect 1 tester lead to BR, (brown?) cable and the other to ground
2) connect 1 tester lead to Br/wh, (brown/white?) cable and the other to ground
3) where is this?
4) What is Ch and or Dg?

 

yes tur on key
Br is brown
Br/wh is brown with white stripe
ground can be battery or frame bare metal, test ground connection back to battery positive looking for 12 volts
Ch is chocolet
Dg is dark green

you should leave flasher connected and check wire at back of connector

 

Alternator:
* field coil windings: 5.7ohms
* stator (3 white wires): 0.8, 0.9, 0.9 ohms

Battery Voltages:
OFF: 13.12 (thought just pulled out of charger)
ON: 11.79 to 12.5 (the voltage is dropping... so I kept measuring until it dropped to the lowest) - also note that motorcycle started instantly so I don't have starter issues

1,000RPM (idle): signal lights ON, no flashing, horn works @ 13.3v
1,500 RPM: signal lights ON, flashing, horn works @ 14.36v - 13.96v
2,000 RPM: signals flashing, horn works @ 14.6v


I noticed these characteristics:
13.3v - lights ON, no flash
13.8v - lights ON, SLOW flashing
140-14.3 - lights ON, flashing

I cleaned the grounds with a dremel tool brush on the ground cover as you suggested

Still on glass fuses.

 

what voltage do you have after the glass fuse?
go buy a fuse holder put clips on the ends and see if your results change, there are better ones than the one pictured.
clip it across your signal fuse where the wires are crimped to the clips

 

you measurements are out of spec this could be your problem check them again.
Alternator:
* field coil windings: 5.7ohms
* stator (3 white wires): 0.8, 0.9, 0.9 ohms


Checking Alternator Stators:

Measure the resistance across each pair (white1 to white2, white1 to white3, and white2 to white3) of the three white wires (white1, white2, and white3) at the connector; the specifications should be:
0.46 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ650, all XJ700, all XJ750, and XJ900RK models.

Checking Alternator Rotors:
Measure the resistance across the two lead wires (usually brown and green) at the connector; the specifications should be:.
4.0 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ650, all XJ700, all XJ750, XJ900RK, and XJ1100 models.
Note that worn, dirty, or damaged alternator brushes can affect these readings, as can "dirty" copper commutator rings on the rotor face (where the brushes contact the rotor):

 

[QUOTE="do you have glass fuses or have you upgraded to blades?[/QUOTE]

My motorcycle shop said that my fusebox was 'melting' into the plastic and recommended I change it. Should I upgrade to 'blade fuses' and new fusebox?

 

test

 

My motorcycle shop said stator is on the way out. Now if both are out of spec, which is the one I should change first? I'm thinking stator (is this the wound copper thing where you can take an eraser and clean it) might be easier to change first no?

The rotor is a pain in the ass to remove and requires two people.

 

I would revisit brushes for length and check the springs, make sure brushes float properly would be easier to replace brushes then re test ohms

both at same time put in gear and foot on the brake ( tighten the adjuster first). one man operation.

yes up grade you can go blade and box or inline fuse holders as I pictured. both will cost the same, your choice.
I would do this first

 

do not take tis the wrong way but the info you just shared with us would have been VERY HELPFUL if you stated it in the first post of this thread.

melting fuse box.
bad charging system parts....

you are getting volts but no amps
recheck brushes. can you borrow another meter to redo the test.

does your headlight dim way out? battery keep going dead?
alternator should have affected all lights

I still would do fuse box first.

 

Thanks! I went downstairs just now and noticed that my horn is working but the lights do not flash when the motorcycle is in ON position (but engine not started).

 

This is a pic of my fusebox. don't see any 'melting' but i'll change it.

Also for Chacel to see when replacing with ATC fusebox.

 

that is not a stock fuse holder. but good news is you should be able to just plug in the new box.
try changing the signal fuse or swap it with headlight fuse see if the problem moves with the fuse.

or swap the wires for head light to signal fuse see if the problem moves with the wires

or plug a 10 amp blade fuse into the quick disconnects of your signal wires

 

If you've checked everything else above, I had problems with turn signals not flashing at idle. They did flash when rpms were above idle. Problem was two fold:

1) weak battery
2) 23w instead of 27w bulbs in the turn signal (this fixed the problem for good)

 

Hmm... I know for sure I changed my left (shifter side) bulbs to to GE Nighthawks 1156NH. IF I have issues, would one side being on 27W tell me enough? I mean, the left side doesn't affect the right side right?

I've had one instances where a defective lightbulb can cause one side to stop flashing. One side was only ON, and the other side was flashing. So I found it was one defective lightbulb.

Link: https://www.amazon.ca/GE-1156NH-Nighthawk-Automotive-Replacement/dp/B001FJNP5W

 

If you measured at the connector, that is better than most indicating brushes and field coil are likely OK

Touch your meter leads together, subtract that number from the above reading to get closer to the true resistance of the stator.

Your charging system is working perfectly.

Definitely need the 27 watt bulbs to work as designed as cgutz suggested.

Those spade terminals on the fuse box don't look very good, do you feel any excessive heat from them? I can't tell but the one with the red insulation sleeving (signal fuse) doesn't even appear to be crimped. They all appear corroded, and I would never trust that simple smash crimp on an outdoor vehicle. They often loosen up, and giving them a slight tug you can feel the wire move within the terminal.

 

are there voltages you're taking at the battery or at the turn signal socket and horn?

 

I now know my stock relay fu257cd is bad. I happened upon a relay novita LL552 and my signals blink right away with just the motorcycle ON. But the aftermarket relay doesn't hand the grommet to mount to frame and disables auto cancel.

What is the aftermarket alternative that has this grommet?

Also can you list the led equivalent too? Might be cheaper to buy led flasher and change to LED bulbs than to buy oem flasher relay.

The novita site said that I can use a LED really but it just won't blink fasthe if one bulb is out.

 

Have you opened your stock relay? The two things that can kill one are corrosion on the points (clean them), and a bad capacitor (replace it).

 

Oh shit, you can fix that thing!??!?! ! I saw that I might be able to open it but didnt' dare. I'll try that tonight

 

I noticed that the OEM flasher relay points are labeled (B,C,L). I saw an aftermarket LED compatible relay, Novita EP34, that's labeled (B,E,L) and it didn't flash at all.

I do know that the Novita EP34 is a LED one, but I read that it's supposed to work - just doesn't blink fast when a bulb is out.

Is the C and E interchangeable? Where

B, X - Battery input
C - ?
E - gRound
L - Load

I managed to get it work using a Novita LL552 (X,L) where the X is battery input. Whe


EP34 link: http://www.novitatech.com/?q=aftermarket/products/electronic-flashers/ep34
Flasher reference guide: http://novitatech.com/?q=aftermarket/products/flasher-quick-reference
Novita LL552: http://novitatech.com/?q=aftermarket/products/electro-mechanical-flashers/ll552

 

IF anyone is interested, here's an LED flasher that has the "hook" to attach the rubber grommet to:

https://www.amazon.com/AUDEW-Electr...=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=audew+3+pin+flasher+relay

 

resistor is 150 ohms, capacitor is 1200uf electrolitic


flasher connects to fuse, canceler unit, and turn switch (bulbs)

 

If anyone is interested, two Novita flasher relays can work but they only have two terminal. Note that you will lose auto cancel.

Incandescent bulb: Novita LL552
LED bulb: Novita EP37 (LED will work with incandescent but you will not get the fast flash to indicate a burnt bulb)