Starter Solenoid Operation

Can anyone tell me the proper behavior of the signal wires going to the Solenoid (Blue and Red/White, I believe)?

For example- Key on, are either of them hot? And when the starter button is pressed, does one or both "become" hot?

Anyone that could take a few minutes with a test light on their bike to verify this would be forever in my favor! Thanks in advance.

 

Red/white goes to starter cutoff relayand diode block ,other one goes to start button. Red should be hot if diode and start relay allow it to. This is controlled by side stand switch and clutch switch at lever , oh and neutral indicator .If that helps

 

one always has to be ground, but you have to disconnect at least one wire to check this. when you press the button, the one that is NOT ground should become hot, depending on the things Toomanybikes said

 

starter button grounds the circuit if key is on you will get voltage on both wires. on solenoid side to starter button will be a little lower than supply side wire due to voltage drop across solenoid coil
oil light comes on if starter button is pressed as it is used to ground the light to test it.
in some bikes the oil light is the ground for the starter button ( no light or burned out no start )

diode and resistor shown are in diode block

 

your right, only mine works like i said. here's a real one.

 

So what I have is an intermittent no-crank. But before we get crazy asking about fuse boxes and going to church and things like that, I appreciate the responses about the solenoid wiring. What I found when I last tested it was that both of the wires were hot with the key on, and one would go "cold" when I hit the starter button (I don't recall which off the top of my head right now). The oil light always comes on with the starter button, whether the bike cranks or not.

It seems like I have a bad ground, which is not hard to imagine. I have checked and cleaned all of the obvious ones, and now to start digging for the less obvious ones. Unless this sounds like a common failure of one of the diodes or relays mentioned?

 

your operation is how it is supposed to the starter button is ground and one side of the solenoid will go "cold" when you press the button.
oil light coming on indicates starter button is working as ground.


you need to confirm that the starter safety relay is working as the clutch safety switch or neutral switch may be failing (as seen in polocks post)
when you get the no start try jumping across the solenoid wires for the starter
could be a dead spot on the starter or shitty connections on solenoid, starter motor ground.

does the no start occur when you try to start in neutral or in gear with clutch pulled in?
clutch safety switch housing will seperate causing switch to fail.

clutch switch failing open will only allow bike to start in neutral

 

Assuming 1982 XJ650 R as in your signature, should have a side stand safety switch:

With the key on the R/W wire should be 12V, but only if the safety conditions are met (in neutral, or side stand up and the clutch pulled in) so that the starter cutoff relay is closed routing 12V to the solenoid.

The L/W wire routes to the starter switch. It will be 12V also until the start button is depressed as the circuit is changed from an open circuit to applying ground to the L/W wire, which should energize the solenoid

If the L/W wire goes to ground when you push the starter switch, and the R/W wire stays at 12V, there should be an audible clunk of the solenoid engaging. If not, the solenoid is defective. Or, sometimes even with the audible clunk of the solenoid the high current contacts within the solenoid do not mate to engage the starter, which would then be evaluated by shorting the two large terminals on the solenoid (while in neutral) to see if the starter spins.

 

Right on. So the wiring is working correctly- thanks! I have cleaned all the contacts for the starter and the solenoid. I was all set to replace the solenoid with a spare I have, but while I had the big leads removed I hit the button two dozen times and it worked fine every single time. So I'm just gonna swap it out for my spare I guess and see if that solves it. The bike has a brand-new battery in it, the charging system works properly, the contacts are clean and the button is operating as it should- so the last thing to do is swap the solenoid out. Maybe it acts up when it has a load on it, or when it is on its' side- because when I tested it, it was upright in my hand.

 

And yes, I can certainly jump the solenoid when it doesn't operate properly- I have been keeping a large washer in my pocket while riding just for that. It just gets embarrassing in public, people think I am trying to steal my own bike haha.

 

that points to a bad solenoid

 

i am reading treads on electric issues, so here is mine. 85 xj700n was not charging , found that PO had put a in line fuse from the red solinoid lire that splits into two(fuse was in lead going to rectifier) and was blown. I should of just replaced and tried, but decided to re-route and solder the split and replaced 30 amp main with new fuse holder. tucked all back in place and now i don't have spark at all. been 2 days now following and testing wires and relays. Turns over , just no start or spark, scew the charging problem, now it do'n even run and i need help. On the coils in front of gas tank , i did get close to the right ohms on the primary but nothing with the secondary (manual said to test from orange wire to end of spark plug wire and respectivle on the other one from gray to plug wire and on those two were not getting any reading. But when testing i did not have the black box T.C.I. pluged in or the other lead that goes to pick=up coil, so not sure what to do now ?

 

when you turn on the key what does work?
I would recheck the main fuse work. look at pic polock posted for ignition
, check your ignition fuse for voltage. check the red/white wire for voltage on the tci box

this is incorrect ( I think the haynes manual is misprinted)
test from orange wire to end of spark plug wire

you test from spark plug wire to spark plug wire on same coil for secondary you can include the spark plug caps just add the ohms for total
then for primary you test the two wires at the connector to the coil,

 

your specs

XJ700 air-cooled models:
Pick-up coils:
120 ohms +/- 20% = 96 ohms to 144 ohms acceptable range
Ignition Coils:
Primary side (input from main wiring harness):
2.7 ohms +/- 10% = 2.43 ohms - 2.97 ohms acceptable range

Secondary side (spark plug wires, without their end caps):
12K ohms +/- 20% = 9,600 ohms - 14,400 ohms acceptable range

Spark plug caps:
1985 N/NC models: 5K +/- 20% = 4,000 to 6,000 ohms per cap acceptable range
1986 S/SC models: 10K +/- 20% = 8,000 to 12,000 ohms per cap acceptable range


Spark plugs:
1985 N/NC models: 0 ohms per plug
1986 S/SC models: 5K ohms per plug

 

TY 550H, hope you can stay in touch tonite i really need this fixed, heading to do some readings right now.
I did ck volt at tci and had 12v, but i also had continuity between r/w and ground which i thought might mean a short from main switch to the plug that goes to pick-up coil under the side cover(which i did not remove yet but am getting ready to). I don't understand all about the plug caps and why it matters, the bike did run fine 2 days ago, so it's something i did when re-wiring or a componant just went bad by coincident? With key on everything works, starter turns, if it is any of the three safety switches or thier relays, it would not even turn over woukd it, or am i wrong about that ?

 

if the starter safety relay was not working the starter would not turn over
if you have 12 volts at tci that is good too
unplug tci connectors
on the tci the right connector goes to the ignition coils the left connector goes to the pickup coils
red/white wire goes to both coils along with an orange to 1 coil and a gray to the other coil this is the primary side of coils and you should have
Primary side (input from main wiring harness):
2.7 ohms +/- 10% = 2.43 ohms - 2.97 ohms acceptable range

the tci left connector has orange and gray wires as well as a black wire that goes to pickup coils
orange to black should read Pick-up coils:120 ohms +/- 20% = 96 ohms to 144 ohms acceptable range
gray to black should read Pick-up coils:120 ohms +/- 20% = 96 ohms to 144 ohms acceptable range

measure the spark plug wires in coil pairs with caps on should read around 22k ohms
spark plug caps are the boots on the spark plug they unscrew from wires and should have 5k ohms each.

 

as you can see from this pic (for 550) the + side of battery goes to starter relay (solenoid) and splits to your main fuse which goes to voltage regulator and main ignition switch. when you turn the key on your tail light should light up the key switch sends voltage to tail lights and to the fuses
check your work to the main fuse

 

Since you were having a charging problem be sure to check battery voltage when cranking. You need at least 9.5V to produce a healthy spark.

Only the side stand relay can disable the TCI and cause no spark. So, you could have a bike that is turning over, but the TCI is disabled because the side stand safety circuit is not working. A set of normally closed contacts in the side stand relay disables the TCI, so you can simply remove the side stand relay to eliminate the side stand safety circuit as an issue.

 

Thanks alot, both 550H and Rooster. That was some info i needed, i was thinking that the side stand would not even let it turn over same as clutch and nutural and also oil level sensor. but it might be a relay or switch. i just came in from garage now and will be back at it in the morning. I did find a couple of issues with the brushes in the altorantor ( one brush too short and one spring a little weak and low resistance about 1.7 ohms ) can the brushes cause any starting issue or is it only for charging system? the pickup coils both read good at 116 ohms and the primary ignition coil were good , i'm still not sure what and how to check the secondary ignition coils thru the plug wires ( is it from one plug wire to the other plug wire on the same ignition coil ?) By the way all lights work even tail light. thanks guys , i hope we talk soon.

 

the brushes are for charging and wear at different rates. low battery at start will cause problems it can not drop below 9.5 volts when you press the starter button or tci will not fire

secondary ignition coils
yes from one plug wire to the other plug wire on same coil

 

Thanks man, by the way hope ur healing well and fast. nite 550H , talk soon , probably tomarro, at my wits end with this wiring snafu. tomarro's a new day.