Brand New "Intake Manifolds" Peeling Inside

Hello again,

I recently installed new intake boots on my '82 XJ750J after spending hours and hours removing 7 manifold bolts the previous owner broke off and ground flush to the head. No really, he just ground them flat and drilled and tapped tiny holes INTO THE HEAD (not the broken bolts!) and drilled matching holes into the manifolds so he could use tiny cap screws to reattach the manifolds. He didn't even replace the old cracked manifolds!!

Seriously, of all the crap the PO did to this bike, this hack job is the worst of them all. I might post pictures of the little tiny screws that were barely holding the old manifolds on, and the broken bolts I extracted with a wire welder. It's quite the story really, but I digress.

I installed a brand new set of manifolds and after tuning the bike it ran better than ever (albeit with 3 carbs' mixture screws still out at 5 turns and one at 4). It ran great for the first couple test drives. Then it started acting up. Cold starts got harder and the choke made the engine RPM "bumpy" and occasionally the idle would be "bumpy" too (the proper term escapes me right now). Other times the idle would be perfect like it was when I tuned it.

I pulled the carbs to clean them (following the church of clean this time; should have just started there) and to my horror found the rubber inside the new boots peeling away.

Check out these pictures. It's pretty clear what the problem is. http://imgur.com/a/lAjVu

So I guess I'd like to know if I should be worried about this. Could this cause poor running as the pockets in the rubber interrupt the airflow? Should I be concerned about the engine ingesting the rubber if it breaks loose?

I figured if nothing else I would just cut away all of the loose material and hope they don't start leaking. I got these manifolds off Ebay and now I'm wondering if they aren't up to spec in the materials department.

Any input would be appreciated.

 

Your photo link is not working

 

This is a problem if they are not nos boots they are made in China and well as the addage "you get what you paid for" I belive even xj4ever quit selling these boots as they were delaminating . I'm sorry to hear about your PO horror story.

 

Yes, buy "quality" the first time around.......

Sorry, that happened to you......

It is time to start bringing back the parts & jobs to America or elsewhere

China is cheap & crappy....

 

you would mean OEM boots not NOS boots. NOS is new old stock and could be up to 35 years old

 

That is a known problem with some of the aftemarket intake boots. Chacal has OEM intake boots for your machine; start a conversation with him.

 

That all depends on what standards the manufacturer is held to. There is plenty of cheap and crappy stuff made the world over (including in the U.S.).

 

This is exactly why we stopped selling them, of the first 10 sets we sold, 6 of them had failures of this type.

Sometimes you cannot afford to buy based on the price-tag alone.........

 

Here are the pictures for anyone who couldn't use the link.



I just checked Chacal's listing for these boots. A little under $400 for a full set. There's no way I can afford that right now. It was hard enough justifying the cost of Progressive Suspension parts, and now I have two full sets of boots. There must be something I can do to make one of them work.

Chacal, did any of the people who had delamination come up with a patch or fix? I know you can patch the outside of a bad boot, how about the inside? Did they just scrap the boots and eat the cost? That would be a costly option for me and I'd really like to make these work.

I was really hoping I was done with boot problems. Just another frustration of this project.

 

On a side note, here are some pictures of the bolts I removed. This was my first time using a welder and you can see the progression from left to right as I got better. Certainly a good project to quickly learn how to weld, though I would recommend more practice to anyone looking to do the same. It was, "frustrating" at times to say the least. It took 25-30 hours to remove all of these. Literally just turning a wrench back and forth a little bit to break things loose (and lots of kroil and heat). Any more force and the nut would break right off.



And here are the minuscule screws the PO replaced the original hardware with, next to the one surviving original bolt, next to one of the bolts I replaced all the hardware with. I ran an M6 x 1.0 thread tap through each hole and used antiseize when reassembling so I can get everything apart next time (possibly sooner than I imagined given the boot situation).

 

Not that I'm aware of, we took all of the defective ones back and either refunded or swapped towards OEM boots.

The OEM manifolds, although pricey, will last as long as the originals did (30 years or so) so that's only about $10/year. The aftermarket versions of these 650/750 manifolds sometimes won't last a month. Very disappointed in this manufacturer, it's not that much more difficult to make them correctly..........

 

I've never welded anything, but... How did you do that? Weld a nut to the sheared off shaft via the inside of the hole on the nut? That seems like it'd be extremely difficult and risk welding to/damaging the head itself?

 

Actually that's exactly what I did, including the part about damaging the head in 2 spots. Fortunately the damage was very shallow and most of the threads in those holes are still in good shape. You have to be extremely careful to hit the head of the bolt and not the aluminum or the welder will instantly burn into the aluminum. Using a small nut helps minimize the risk and tacking a washer on first nearly removes it.

Once you've started welding into the bolt the process is actually pretty easy. At that point you just have to be careful to not melt the side of the nut which you can see I did on the first few nuts.

Almost every hole has a little damage where some weld scraped a circle around the opening. I think that's mostly cosmetic though and the thread is fine. Of course I was careful to stay away from the area just around the intake opening where the gasket needs to seal. When I was done I filed the bolt hole surface flat so any pushed up metal wouldn't stop the boot from mating properly to the intake. I don't have any vacuum leaks with the new setup.

The method I used which worked best was to tack small dots onto the end of the bolt to build it up, then hold the nut on and use short bursts to tack it on. Let it cool between welds and finish with a longer weld to melt things together. A good multipass wire helps and the highest voltage your welder can put out is essential to penetrating what is essentially a steel rod wrapped in a heat sink. I used a Hobart Handler 140 set to about 1/3 of it's wire speed and maximum voltage.

 

Sounds pretty straightforward. My brother in law has a wire fed welder, and I have a busted manifold bolt on one of my heads. Thanks!

 

Be super careful.

When it comes time to turn the bolt out don't expect it to turn even slightly at first. Let everything cool and then torch the head around the bolt with a soft propane torch to warm it up. Try not to heat the bolt if you can help it. Use lots of penetrating oil (kroil and PB Blaster worked great for me, PB may have been better once things started moving) and repeat heat and oil applications when things cool down.

The next step really sucks. Get a cheap wrench that "fits" on the nut you used but still has some play. Wiggle the wrench back and forth using just as much force turning one way as you use turning the other. Your goal is not to just turn the bolt straight out. As the bolt goes out the corrosion will crumble and seize the bolt just like loctite. You have to turn the bolt back and forth to grind up the corrosion and eventually it will turn out a little bit further. keep wiggling and eventually it will go a little bit further than that. It can be really frustrating and you'll think it's doing nothing because you're literally turning the bolt by thousandths of a rotation each time. You will not see any progress over even several minutes of quickly rocking the bolt back and forth.

Eventually you'll reach a point where the wrench has maybe 1/16 of a rotation of free (albeit stiff) motion. Keep going back and forth through this range using a little more force turning out than turning in. You will almost certainly break several nuts off until you figure out how much force is too much. Keep in mind that this technique is only seriously recommended for larger bolts where the weld is more solid. A 6mm weld will break with just a firm push.

At some point, potentially after 30 minutes or much more for really stuck bolts, you'll reach a magical place where each turn out moves the bolt noticeably further than before. Don't start using more force here. Just keep rocking back and forth and if the bolt wants to turn out further, let it. Then you'll reach the best part, where you can finally just turn the bolt right out. You'll be surprised by how far you still have to turn it at this point because you haven't really turned it that far to get to this point.

When you get the bolt out stick the straw from your can of parts cleaner all the way to the back of the hole, cover the hole with a rag, and give the parts cleaner a good blast to clear the debris out of the hole. Run an oiled tap through (preferably a bottom tap too) and repeat the blast of cleaner to remove the metal filings. Apply antiseize to a new bolt and turn it in.

Rejoice.

The key to this process is patience. If you couldn't even read to this point in this post then you probably don't have the patience to use this method. The end result is worth it though. No removing the head; no drilling and taping new holes; no Helicoils; no paying a machine shop.

Good luck.

 

Works for me. Patience I can manage (even reading full posts! The horror!) but money is much harder to come by

I was considering the alum method to dissolve it, but couldn't figure out a good way to contain it without endangering steel surfaces inside the motor should things go sideways.

I've absolutely no idea what machine shops charge to remove a bolt like that, but I figure it's not substantially different from what they'd charge to stick a keensert in to repair the threads I mangle if things go badly, so there's that.

 

I tried that method but I couldn't find a way to contain the alum solution, keep it in contact with the bolt head, and keep things hot. If the solution cools down it stops working and the alum crystallizes.

I briefly considered using acid, but that seemed kinda risky and I wanted an excuse to buy a welder anyway.

 

The truth comes out!

 

Hey, who doesn't love melting metal with the power of electricity?

 

Very risky. Acids love to dissolve aluminum.

 

True, though I was thinking of using something concentrated. Many concentrated acids will form a coating on aluminum which protects the aluminum from further damage. Still, welding was safer.

 

Or even creating planets, suns, even universes?

 

One thing you could try on the inside of the boots is to fully clean and dry , and flow JB weld( do not use JB quick) all the way around the inside of the boot , let it fully cure at least 24 hours , lightly sand till smooth. this might work,but cannot say it would work...could break away and get sucked into the engine.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I've never had good luck with JB Weld. It always cracks and falls apart.

 

You are either using JB Quick, or doing something wrong.
Either way, there are better epoxies, but not at the hardware store (and not for cheap).

 

I'm pretty sure I've used JB Weld and used it correctly. What I don't know is how old it was. It could have been older than I am for all I know.

 

I repaired Dana 44 differentials when I worked for Ditch Witch when I was in High school , as well as some engine blocks . You have to mix it up well and spread it even ,and let it set up fully 24 hours . JB weld can be milled and ground if needed , Areldite is another product that is great , we used this on aircraft . Epoxy liquid steel is another product .

 

I had the same issue with the aftermarket ones as well. Could not get it to idle well or run right at all, pulled the carbs and had this as well. Luckily I bought through Chacal who took them back without any issues. I had to suck it up and buy the OEM ones as my original ones had the aluminum cracked.

Can you post some pics of the original cracked ones? Even with the extra holes you may still be able to repair them with RTV. Many members have sealed them up successfully, my 750 Kaw has been running on RTV's intakes for years now.

 

I've already been coating the original boots with ultra black rtv for some time now. I just didn't trust them any more. I'm at work right now, but I'll post pictures tonight.

 

You may have to bite the bullet, & buy OEM boots....you then will be good for another 30-40 yrs.....

 

Here is a collection of photos of my old manifolds. Do you really think it's a good idea to try and save these?

http://imgur.com/a/CC33Y

 

Also, I messaged the Ebay seller who sold me the aftermarket boots. Without me even asking he agreed to send a new set. I said I'm concerned that the new ones will have the same problem and I'm waiting to hear back.

I think I'll take the new set he sends and try soaking one in gas to see if the rubber deteriorates. If it does maybe he'll give me a refund; we'll see.

Still, great customer service considering I bought these 2 months ago.

 

I suspect that it's because all the re-sellers know there is a problem with them, maybe 40% of the manifolds are okay, the rest all have the same issue, and many people either won't complain or won't notice until much later. To me, continuing to sell a product with known problems makes you an "accessory" to the, ummm, problem..........

 

Forget about a 2nd set from Ebay seller.......you are just wasting your time........tell him you want a full refund.....defective product.....

Then buy OEM boots.....from Chacal.......bite the bullet

 

I was thinking about the exact same issue as Chacal is. I expect he knows about the problem.

I'll try asking for a refund, but being 2 months past the purchase date means he can choose to give a refund or not at his discretion. I don't think this would qualify for a charge-back either because there was no fraud.

 

Oh, man, those are sure hurting. Wow.

 

I tried to keep them going a long as I could. Now you see why I went to the effort to get the old bolts out.

 

but very defective product.......Ebay protection should give you a refund.....push them on this issue.......defective merchandise....you didnt realize the problem until 2 months later.....hit them up from that angle......they should refund the money and back charge the vendor....

 

I'll see what I can do about pushing a refund. I usually like to work with the seller if I can. Kinda seems unprofessional to go over their head, but I guess they have it coming if they're selling a bad product.

 

Then, push the seller first, if that doesn't work, then try Ebay protection......

You will do what is best....

 

I've asked the seller for a refund. I mentioned that all 4 boots are clearly defective and not to OEM standards (when the listing stated they were).

If he refuses I'll contact eBay. Has anyone had luck getting a refund through eBay outside of the return period?

 

Yes.
And have been denied, depends on integrity - which sadly, I ass-u-me everyone has. Not true!

Good luck.

 

Well the seller is going to give me a refund if I send the boots back. No word on if he'll reimburse the shipping cost. I'm not even sure why he wants them back given he's seen the same pictures you guys have of the peeling. I'm thinking I should push him to pay or reimburse the cost of shipping before sending anything.

Also, I've ordered an OEM set which should work out much better.

 

I am sure you will be happy with your OEM set.....

 

It might be that the seller is interested in bringing the issue up with the manufacturer. If I was paying bills by re-selling parts, I sure would make a fuss about defective merchandise. The more re-sellers that bring up the issue, the more hope there is for the problem to be corrected.

 

So I just got my brand new OEM boots in the mail today and I have to say they are so much better than the aftermarket boots.

Here are some pictures comparing aftermarket to OEM boots. http://imgur.com/a/qT15q

Oddly enough, my boots had each deteriorated slightly differently and I was able to put together this album showing the progression of the rubber delamination with my interpretation of what is happening. http://imgur.com/a/3OphI

When I installed the aftermarket boots I used the Fel-Pro gaskets they came with. Can these paper gaskets be reused? I've kept them in their exact orientation and position on the bike so they will go back on just as they came off. I also used silicone grease so they didn't tear when I removed them.

 

You can reuse the gaskets....as long as they are in good shape and not torn...as long as it is a nice airtight seal between boot and manifold

Put anti seize on your bolts and torque to spec. Do not overtighten and snap....ouch

 

I always use antiseize when reassembling things on this bike, unless I think I don't need it (very rare).

I'm actually putting the bolts in slightly under torque both because of the antiseize and because I'm afraid the threads may be weakened somewhat from removing the old bolts.

 

Ok so I put the manifolds on and got the carbs back on. I colortuned and synced the carbs. The sync was still perfect but the mixtures were a hair off because I removed the screws to clean the pilot passage.

So here's the deal. It runs really strangely with the choke on and won't idle with it off while cold. With the choke on it almost runs like it's out of sync and never revs up. Instead, revs down until I turn the choke down a little. The engine puffs a little out the exhaust. You can hear it quietly but you can feel the pops really easily holding your hands over the exhaust.

Once warm it idles perfectly with the choke off and revs really sharply before dropping right to idle, maybe a hair below idle before coming back up. If I turn any choke on it dies. Colortuning shows it running just a hair lean of yellow rich which should be perfect for this bike. I will note though that the color changes a little between each combustion even when the idle is perfectly smooth which makes tuning a bit tricky.

Also, with the colortune it almost looks like it's missing every few combustions. Like it will flash a little more yellow than normal and then miss once before going back to normal tuning.

I've been trying to figure this running condition out for months now. I would appreciate some new input.

Sorry if this isn't well written. I have a kitten fighting for my attention right now.

 

you're rich. You should never be seeing any hints of orange. Tune from the lean side until you see bunsen-blue.