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Cleaned Starter Motor... Now Maybe Problem?

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by dandrewk, Nov 4, 2007.

  1. dandrewk

    dandrewk Member

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    First time taking off the starter motor, taking it apart, cleaning and re-greasing.

    I put everything back together, taking care to align the tabs on the brush holder to the main body. Everything seemed to align good, it took a bit of pushing to get the motor back into the starter clutch, getting the o-ring seal on the starter into the body.

    I don't have the carbs back in yet, waiting for some new rubber boots. But I went ahead and did a test start to see if it turned.

    ... and maybe a problem. It turned, but slowly, almost like it had a weak battery (it doesn't). I won't know if it actually will start until I have everything back together.

    What might cause this? I don't want to put the carbs back on and have to remove them again to get to the starter to find the problem. Does it take a few starts for the brushes to wear back into their groove? (btw, they measured 10mm, still within spec).
     
  2. redcentre003

    redcentre003 Member

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    I'd check and recheck the electrical contacts and the alignment of the brush holder inside the cap of the motor.

    Also, I'd check that the brushes were actually making good contact with the armature. If it was working before it should be working equally as well now if not better after cleaning.

    Check all the steps again - especialy the brush alignment - I put mine back together and the motor turned perfectl...BACKWARDS - turned out to be the holder was about 90deg out of alignment.

    Cheers.
     
  3. dandrewk

    dandrewk Member

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    Doesn't the holder only go in one way? It's tabbed.

    I'll have to pull it and look at it again. It seemed to snap into place.
     
  4. babaloo01

    babaloo01 Member

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    Mine did the same thing when I put it back together. There should be a schematic on here somewher. Make sure everything is there, little washers etc and nothing is in backwards. It should spin easily.
     
  5. dandrewk

    dandrewk Member

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    By spin easy - is it possible to spin the big gear on the starter end?

    I expect the problem is a bad contact somewhere. I'll pull it off tomorrow and see what I can see.
     
  6. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    All you need to do is hook-up the Starter ... on the bench ... to a 12 Volt Supply.

    A Battery Charger works great for this.
    Hooked-up to the Battery Charger with the Red Lead to the Pigtail and the Black to Ground the Case ... the Motor should spin with easy and quite rapidly.

    The Main Problem faced by all who overhaul the Starter Motor is the correct alignment of the Brushes on to the Commutator.

    The Brush Holder Plate needs to "Seat" within the Outside End so that the Brushes sit flat on the Outside Diameter of the Commutator.
    If the Brushes are cockeyed ... the Motor doesn't get the full amount of Amps for turning the Motor and can bind the Armature from spinning freely.
     
  7. dandrewk

    dandrewk Member

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    Thanks Rick, that looks like an easy way to test it out. Is the spinning pretty smooth, or do I have to support the motor to prevent it from bouncing off the table when I apply current (may sound crazy, but I can just picture that sort of thing happening).

    Regarding greasing the gearing (since I'm cracking it open again) - I have gear oil (85w-140w) and also lithium grease. What works best for the inner gears and/or the gear hookup to the starter clutch?
     
  8. MiCarl

    MiCarl Active Member

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    Excellent question. Outside of starter will attempt to spin opposite the inside. Have it held down good or it could do quite a dance for you - possibly ending in damage or injury.
     
  9. jeepsteve92xj

    jeepsteve92xj Member

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    and keep your fingers away form the spinney bits.
     
  10. dandrewk

    dandrewk Member

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    Hand held ok? (Wearing gloves... and fingers away from spinney bits :)). Or should I have the outer casing on and gently squeeze in a big vise?
     
  11. jeepsteve92xj

    jeepsteve92xj Member

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    I like to put it on the floor, up against a bench leg wall or car tire or whatever so I can hold it with my foot. Squeezed in a vice too hard can distort the case and be anti-helpful.
    Gloves are a nice idea to help keep you from buring yourself when you hit the power.

    I prefer to learn from other peoples mistakes - watched a guy hold a screwdriver on the starter power studs long enough to burn his hand... and then he put the hot screw ddriver in his other hand to tend ot the burtn first hand... DUH!
    I've seen proffessionals drop a torquey starter because they werent ready for the sudden twist. If its already on the ground, how far can it fall??

    Steve
     
  12. dandrewk

    dandrewk Member

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    Ok, it "looks" like everything "should" be in there right.

    I have a problem though, trying to test it with a charger. With the commutator body in the case, and the brush holder within the slot marked by the tab, the holder end opposite the brushes won't stay flush with the body - it springs up and down a bit. Is it supposed to lock down in there someway? Because I'm not seeing it.

    I can't do the charger test like this. If the motor engaged, the brush holder would go flying off.

    Am I missing something here?
     
  13. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    The holder fits into the Electric end like a Puzzle Piece. You'll have to "Walk" it around the Starter body until you find the spot where it secures into the two cut-outs that allow for it to be anchored.
     
  14. dandrewk

    dandrewk Member

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    Rick - I think it was the magnetism from commutator that was causing one end to seem springy. It was aligned ok with the tab in the body.

    I am still not clear on how to use the charger to test the starter. The positive goes to the pigtail - that would be the bolt? The negative ground on the body. What I am not clear on is the assembled state at that point. Is the electronic end cap and/or the gear end cap off the starter?

    Regardless, I think (I hope :)) I have located the problem. The electronic end cap was either very slightly out of round, or a piece of schmootz got in there and was preventing a perfect fit, even with the tabs lined up. I removed the brush holder and O ring, and still couldn't get 360 degree contact, twisting it all around several times. This didn't make sense, it SHOULD mate up perfectly with the tabs aligned. So I did what any good mechanic would do.

    I gave it a bit of a whack.

    It snapped into place, and the tabs locked it in perfectly. I suspect it wasn't that way when I reassembled it yesterday, and as such it was binding the motor body. Not enough to freeze it, but enough to make it struggle mightily.

    I put it back on the bike and gave it a test start. It -seemed- to turn much smoother. But I won't know for sure until I get the carbs back on and try to start it for real.

    On that note - is it possible to remove the starter with the carbs attached? It's hard for me to visualize it right now.
     
  15. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the Bike.

    I can take-off my Starter without touching the Carbs. There's plenty of room.
    The two securing bolts come straight up and I withdraw the Starter straight-out.
     
  16. MiCarl

    MiCarl Active Member

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    If you're talking about the 650 the answer is definitely yes. Done it myself. Just like Rick sez.
     

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