Starter Clutch problems (I think)

Hey all,

First all, glad the site is back up, i was getting worried it was down for good. Found the facebook page, would have been great a quick blurb about why the site was down.

Anyways,
I'd love a little advice/assistance/miracle here. I bought an 81 XJ650 summer last year, starter motor was cracked, (push started so I know it ran at least) replaced it and worked on the carbs, front and rear brakes. Heat/Time/Money prevented me from doing much else until recently. Put carbs in, new battery, new plugs but bike wont start. Posted on reddit and was told its the starter clutch.

Quick video below is me trying to start the bike up. Second video is the starter off the bike (thought the starter was the problem at first)




Did oil/filter change right after getting the bike, can't remember brand but I know it was 10w-40 motorcycle oil but I'm willing to do a flush again if you guys think its just the oil. Also seen comments on using seafoam but I can't even start her up so not sure if its a good idea.

I'm so worried that the only fix is to split the case, never done a job that big. If thats the only solution I'm thinking of selling/parting the bike. I just dont think I have the skill/patience for something that big.

Thanks all

 

It does sound like it kicks out after cranking for a few seconds. But until you get it running and flush out the old oil and maybe previous owners incorrect oil it may do that until it gets hot. And battery sounds a bit weak for a good start. Did you do the complete carb “Church of Clean” ? When I do them the bike starts instantly.

 

I had replaced the oil previously but did not attempt to run it (didnt have the starter replaced yet) but I dont think I let it drip overnight, just a basic, remove oil plug, let it drain, remove filter, put new filter in, put new oil in. I've now let it sit in my garage with the drain plug removed for 2 nights. Would that help? Would another flush with cheap motorcycle oil help? I can get 1L of 20-50 conventional for $7 (cheaper then $17 for 1L for other high end). Could the seafoam be a bad idea if I can't get it started anyways? If i could still do it even without starting it, should I leave the drain plug open for a better drip and with overnight waits? Also, seafoam, do I do it via the access point behind the alternator? I had cleaned the starter but didnt replace the brushes. I've now ordered a rebuild kit from amazon and should have it sometime next week. Also, battery is new, and I had just charged it prior to testing. Next test while I wait will be load testing the battery and pulling out my car battery to use on the bike.

As for the carbs, I did not do the full church of clean. I followed it without separating the carbs.

 

As for the oil issue I don't think you have a problem of how you changed the oil. Even a fast oil change just letting the oil run out and turn into a small drip is good. Over night dripping is not needed IMHO. I hope that your kit is the correct one, the icon on the top right of every page will get you the correct part for your bike every time. Start a PM with Len he will help you out with anything and everything.

Did you make sure the little hole in the bottom of the bowls were supper clean? That is a little jet that needs to be open to have the bike start right. That is missed a lot so don't feel bad if you missed it. Take a twist tie and removed the insulation off of it, it is a great size for putting down the hole and cleaning things out. Just hitting the carb with cleaner will not do the trick, I have tried didn't work.

Do you have any fuel leaking from the carbs? You will tell if the "O" rings on the fuel rail is bad right away, it will start to leak when you have the gas on with vacuum or when on prime. Speaking of prime, make sure you prime those dry carbs too, no fuel in the bowls no start.

That started in the vid is kicking out, I hope as stared above that once the new oil gets moving in there it will take care of its self.

 

Definitely seen the fix from flushing the old oil and running new oil through the engine on a slipping starter clutch.

However, also have pulled a starter clutch to find the solid boss cracked through with no hope of retaining the pressure on the shaft.

Splitting the engine isn't that difficult, just physically demanding and long winded getting it out and apart and back together and back in.
Maybe a bit costly if you start replacing all the other bits you notice are in bad shape also, of course.

Hopefully the oil flush is your fix!

 

I don't think splitting the crankcases is difficult either. In fact l enjoy working on engines. It depends on how much money an owner wants to spend.

 

Sad to say no go on the oil flush. Rebuilt the starter too since the brushes did need to be replaced. Made sure battery was fully charged. It clearly just slips more often then not. How much of a teardown is necessary to get access to the starter clutch? I mean, I get the need to split the case, but once the case is split, how much "deeper" would I need to go. Also, what tools are needed, I have wrenches and sockets, some torx screwdrivers, hex, pliers and other basic tools. This is my first bike, got my license last year, haven't ridden since the safety course. I dont know if its worth it to do all that work since I'm really itching to get on a bike and ride.

I keep hearing splitting is gonna be costly, time and money. What's the expected cost? Might just be better for me to part to recoup what I put in (on original purchase, $450) and use that as a down payment to purchase a dealer sold functioning bike.

Also, I'm in York, PA and willing to trade it plus some cash for a running bike if anyone knows anyone.

 

a motor swap would be cheaper. you could get a 750 motor for it .

 

XJ750 Engine removal and split - Pictures.

 

So i just put it up for sale on Facebook, letgo and offerup with a full disclousure of the starter clutch. I'm giving it 1 or 2 months to sell. If it doesn't I'll either jump in and try to do the repair myself or see about doing an engine swap. checked Ebay and 750 engines are like $800, is that the expected price? 650 pricing seems to jump from 300-400. But i'd still be afraid of getting a motor with the same problem. Guessing its a bit of a shot in the dark.
If I do end up trying the repair myself, any videos of engines similar to the xj that I can follow for an idea of what is all that I would have to do. I've got other questions but I'll ask them once I decide what to do.

 

joe elliff may have a motor or 2

Thinning the herd

 

I’m inpatient and realized (or at least lied to myself) that no It’s really a small subset of individuals who are willing to put the amount of work required to repair the starter clutch. Sooo I’m gonna try it myself. I’m at the point where I need to detach the engine from the drive shaft, and Looky looky, 1 nut looks pretty badly stripped. I’ve seen prop

 

So i'm seriously impatient and may be lying to myself but I'm thinking only a select few would be willing to go into this much work and would take quite a while to find a buyer, so instead of the bike sitting there and me sweating it every day I'm going to attempt the repair myself. I'm currently down to detaching the drive shaft joint but now that I removed the rubber boot I see 1 nut is pretty well stripped and the other 3 appear to be going the same route. Tried 1 of the nuts but its crazy tight (assuming thats how the one was stripped. I saw a post on the forums before that said it wasn't necessary to remove at that joint but I should remove the swing arm. Checking if that was accurate or maybe I misunderstood what the purpose of that was. Anyways, suggestions? Thanks

 

I can't see the engine coming out with the uni-joint attached.
It is a very tight fit.

 

There's actually lots of room, no concern at all.

 

drive shaft can be pulled out of cross joint

 

OK, I may be going overboard with the excitement (internally, not really jumping up and down), but I'm freaking happy I was able to remove the engine without to much effort and without having to remove the drive shaft joint. Here are a couple pics of the engine outside the frame. Put a couple boards under my jack to spread the weight better over the underside of the engine and lifted it almost fully above the lower frame bar, enough that I was able to wiggle the engine on top of the bar and then slowly lifted and wiggled the rest of the way up and out, sorta sliding the front of the engine out first in an attempt to sort of turn and give the drive shaft joint some more space to slide out. Since I have the engine out, i'm going to do a full cleanup of the frame and see how it looks. From what I've seen, there isn't any rust on it and the paint doesn't look bad. Def dont have the funds to powder coat it so if it needs any touchups not sure what to do, spray paint likely but unsure of what paint to use. Before that happens though, I want to make sure I can get at the starter clutch and do that work. Gonna do all gaskets so a message to chacal will be on its ways as soon as the engine is apart. The other pack with the orings too probably. Chain guide I read is a recommended replacement too. any other items that could be critical? Bearings aren't going to be done unless there's a major problem (hoping thats not the case). Also, if you notice, the pic on the exhaust side, some of the ports have bolts through them and some had screws. What was original and what do I need to do to make it original? How do I go about getting those out if thats necessary?

 

Very nice!
and... I take back the tight fit comment.
I guess I figured since I got stuck on pulling the engine, the first time, because I left the oil distributor block on it was to tight to leave the uni-joint on... my apologies for the crap info! oops.

 

@cds, no worries, mine is an 81 maxim, no oil distributor block to worry about.

 

studsyou are going to want to hone the cylinders before buying rings to make sure you get correct size and nuts are what is used to hold exhaust on.

 

Hi all,

So I finally got the head and block off. I've got a few questions. Image below shows pistons on but I already took them off, notice the 4 middle front studs are not on, they came off while trying to loosen the head holding nuts, guess they're extremely rusty, or was that by design, cause it truly did help with space when removing the pistons. Are there supposed to be spacers in the studs or something? While sliding off both the head and block chunks of what I thought was plastic kept coming off in cylindrical shape but were to brittle to hold shape once off, or is that just crud? Also, major pain when pulling the head because the front left (straddling the bike) most stud seemed to be to big for the whole, should I be concerned there?
Last question, need the rotor puller tool and adapter, anyone know if amazon has it in prime for quick delivery?

 

some of the studs have a plastic tube on them not all of them it is to reduce sound vibration

 

read this
XJ Alternator Rotor Removal Bolt

 

Thanks but that’s not prime. Is it possible to purchase at Lowe’s or homedepot or something? What’s the bolt size? I saw someone saying it needed to be at least 3 inches but what size otherwise?

thanks

 

I used a 19 mm socket on the bolt I have off the nut splitter, the thread diameter is 15 mm (measured with a tape as unfortunately I don't have my micrometer at the moment) thread length is 45 mm and thread pitch is 1.5.

 

looked at both lowes and home depot, neither had anything close in size , ended up ordering a set of pullers from Amazon. Should be here tomorrow but wont have time to try it until Tuesday night.

New question, pulled the clutch/crankcase cover and this metal thing slid out before I could take a picture of its position. Played around until I think I found the right position, is it right and what is its intended purpose? Also, second picture, see the lack of smoothness at the bottom, right above the bolt hole, is that supposed to be like that? i'd say no and that its jb weld but wanted to check. Looked underneath and didnt see any cracks on that side, but I honestly didnt fully lift the engine so I could have missed a spot.

 

It is your oil deflector plate.

 

What’s the purpose of the oil deflector?
Also, took off all bolts on oil pan and been banging on all sides but it’s not budging. Any suggestions?

 

Well I got the oil pan off. Just took a few extra sacks, had left it sitting for a while after banging away for 5 minutes. Wonder if it just needed rest after removing the bolts.

found out something inside broke, probably a chain guide. Also found a metal piece covered in some kind of rubber. Will have to wait till it’s split to see if I find where it went.

having a hard time figuring out how to remove the main shaft oil pump sprocket. Any thoughts on that, it slides partially off the shaft but I still dont get enough of an angle or slack to remove the chain.

 

Yes it will be the chain guide. The the oil deflector plate is a type of baffle which I believe catches the oil and feeds it back to the bottom of the clutch basket, because centrifugal force throws the oil around the inside of the periphery of the clutch cover. Have you removed the clutch because once the clutch basket is off you will be able to remove the oil pump chain. I assume the sprocket needs to be locked to remove the bolt, someone will let you know.

 

Thanks Franz. Yes, the clutch basket was removed but I still didnt have enough slack (probably cause i couldn't even see the gears behind the gear plate). I was following the instructions on the service manual which only said "remove the sprocket", after going and reading the haynes manual they tell you to do it from the oil pump sprocket after removing the tin cover. That made it 100 times easier. No I'm ready to start splitting the case. Will see how it goes once I get a bit of time to myself.

 

A picture of the guide would be great.

 

Good schematic, do the bolts holding the chain guide come out easily or is it better to apply some heat to them first?

 

heat them it gets rough if you snap them

www.partzilla.com is a parts look up site with plenty of schematics

 

Good site that I watched one of their technicians building an R1 engine.

 

here's a picture of my chain guide That metal piece, is it something from the chain guide? I'm so afraid of the split and finding bigger problems. I saw some of teh R1 rebuild vids, pretty good, DigitalPizza has some really good CBx engine rebuild videos, goes into detail and its actually what gave me the confidence to attempt this myself. I'm hoping to get a chance to do the actual case split tonight but lets see.

 

Unfortunately I cannot see the pictures at the moment, must be something wrong with my photo software. Yes the engine build videos are good. Remember what XJ 550 stated about those chain guide bolts and heat them before you remove them you don't want them snapping and use loctite on the new ones. I don't have the torque specs for them. Hopefully when you open the cases all will be well. Replace the guide, and starter clutch components items 7, 8 and 9 in the schematic, and check the oil spray nozzle which lubricates the Hi Vo chain. It can be damaged if the chain hits it. Oil Spray nozzle is behind the alternator rotor, here is a picture of the engine with the rotor removed. I can see pictures I upload onto the forum but not other pictures. I wonder how to fix this?



.


.

 

I can't see the pictures either
Huascar maybe try uploading the pictures to this forum

 

Well thats a pain. I'd posted other pics in the previous replies on this post but I guess none were showing up. They're from my google photos but I tested it on a non signed in device and I thought i saw the images. Anyways, lets see if this works now. Question, are we not able to edit our previous posts? I was trying to go back and edit them to fix the images problem but I dont see an edit option. Oh, slide hammer is a wonderful invention, I couldn't get my middle gear out until I hooked it with the slide hammer, came out so easy.

so as a continuation of the status of the split. I've removed all top and bottom bolts but the case doesn't want to come apart. I'm banging it every which way but still nothing. I've left it overnight and will check on it today and see how it goes.

 

Did you take the bolt out that holds the crankcase together behind the oil filter housing (if applicable to the 650 engine) and the ones under the oil pan? Yes the parts you have found are parts of the chain guide.

 

edit time is very limited for members premium members have more time to edit

 

Finally finished the split and took out all the guts. Guess its time to start ordering pieces. Couple of questions though.
1. Does the oil spray nozzle look alright? I think it is, but I really wouldn't know.

2. So the half rings, assuming they're called that because well they're half of a full ring, but do they have both ends? As in, half ring on my input shaft and on the middle gear shaft sleeve gear had half rings on 1 or the other side of the case, but not on both. Is that normal or am i just missing the other half of each?
2a. Also, does it matter which side of the case it was on? When I split the case, the bottom half had the half ring on the input shaft, and on the middle gear shaft sleeve one was on the top half and the other the bottom half of the case.

3. When I manually rotate the starter clutch it seems to work fine(doesnt rotate one way, but rotates the other), am I safe to assume this is simple because I'm not putting enough force in the lock rotate?
3a. The hub and pinion unit on the starter clutch just pulls off? Seemed solid when I was inspecting it, but I didnt put a lot of force on it since I wasn't sure how it came apart.

 

Oil spray nozzle looks fine which is great because your starter chain has not been hitting it even with the guide broken.

https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partsl...982-c-usa-transmission_bigyau0792c-6_e39a.gif

Items 29 and 31 are needed and item 11 on the above schematic. I think there should be locating grooves in the crankcase for the half rings to locate into. Just fit them back into them. You should replace the parts already outlined on the starter clutch when you have the cases split. It locks when you turn it one way but not another which it is meant to do but the parts are cheap in comparision with the time and more money you would need to spend should the starter clutch slip in future.

 

Hey Franz, yeah, i see the grooves on the crankcase my question was more, is there supposed to be a counterpart to the half rings? since both sides of the crankcase have the grooves, should there be the other half on the opposite end, or are they simple 1 half per 21, 31 and 11. Thanks for answering all my questions so far though, I do appreciate it, you too 550, I do appreciate all the assistance.

 

No just one half ring per bearing. And when you start rebuilding the motor check your gears are all selecting properly and you can get neutral.

 

any thoughts on this as a cylinder hone? Would it fit our cylinders?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...&pf_rd_p=ab873d20-a0ca-439b-ac45-cd78f07a84d8

 

Never used one. One of the other forum members will advise you on what they think.

 

I have used one with my 700X, just be careful slow and steady. You will then have to measure for new rings and then measure and adjust the new rings in each cylinder. Sure brought my 700X back to life.

 

correct size it is the stone grit you want to look at xj4ever catalog lists grits to use