Starting Maxim, solenoid clicking, no turn

Hi again everyone,

Now that I'm back to school it's hard to follow these forums as much. I still come home to ride on the weekends. To save everyone time, I am intermittently having issues with the bike's starting, as per the subject field, when I turn the key, keep it on run, sometimes it turns fine, sometimes I only get a click.

Only things out of the ordinary:
-Battery has lots of power,
-the day was slightly more humid than average, but not to the extreme
-I was riding for about 3 hours today, some high speed riding, but mostly (80%) in the 20mi/hr average range.
-Of the 7times I started my bike today, I had to bump start 3 times.

Incidentally the order of working to not working was:
Cold, starts fine
10m ride, 10m off, starts ine
2hr ride, 10m off, bump start
20m ride, 5m off, starts fine
5m ride, 15m off, starts fine
5m ride, 2 hours off, bump start
5m ride, 10m off, starts fine
0 ride, 5m off, bump start

The last time I tried it, I had another fully charged car battery to try to start it, it made no difference, solenoid clicks every time I bump started it. STATOR/ROTOR; charging fine. No power cutouts anytime during any ride. When bump starting, it starts almost immediately as usual.

Last time I jumped in with 2 feet and got really wet, what do you guys suggest I do before the 'summer' runs out?

Thanks in advance

 

Check to see if it will start by shorting out the 2 terminals on the solenoid, just to make sure it is not the solenoid internal connections. If the bike still does not start try cleaning the starter motor, maybe replacing the brushes as well.

 

Hey there, sounds like your solenoid needs to be renewed, or if you have the wherewithall, overhauled. Any solenoid that will handle 25 Amps should work just fine. Someone (who's name I've forgotten dispite having just read it this morning) used a solenoid from a garden tractor. The point is as long as the coil is rated for 12VDC, at 25 Amps, you should be ok.
Try to clean up the unit you have but be prepared to replace it if things go south.

 

This might be a matter of Carbon Dust shorting-out the Starter. That and some old grease turned into a thick mud in the Planetary arrangement of the Starter Motor.

The Dust creates an intermittent short or resistance.
The mucked-up old grease in the Planetary gears just doesn't want to let the Starter motor to spin as easily as it should when the Juice is on.

Clean your starter.
Look for paper thin washers and spacers.
Clean the Planet Gears with Brake Cleaner and re-grease the two gears and the Orbit Ring Gear.

The Mechanical end comes apart like a .45 Colt Automatic and Field Strips with ease. One Circlip holds the Shaft in the Bearing Bushing.

The Electrical End is touchy because the Pigtail is so short and you really have to use some dexterity lifting the brushes off the commutator and getting the Electrical End ready too clean.

The last time I did a Starter Cleaning ... I filled a trigger-pull spray bottle with Isopropyl Alcohol and just kept spraying until what was draining off was as clean as what was getting sprayed on.

 

Here's my Starter write-up.

Pull the starter. Clean the heck out of it.

After you get it on the bench ...

Two long screws hold BOTH indexed ends to the main body.

Remove the gear end and COMPLETELY clean and re-lube that end.
You'll need to spread one Circlip to get the Planet Main Shaft out.
Keep track of washers and spacers.
Look on the ends of the shaft and inside the housing for thin Thrust Washers that like to stay stuck where they are.

Keep everything in order as you disassemble the Planet end.
Two small Planet Gears on opposed shafts.
The Ring Gear and Main Shaft.
Every Spacer and Thrust Washer.

Clean the "Whole-works" of the "Business-end." All of it so nice and clean a Marine Drill Instructor would have the Company check-out yours as good example.

Check for washers and thrust washers hiding on shafts and bearing ports.

Clean the Electric end; too.

Pull the Case away from the Motor -- slowly.
There's NO slack in the wire connecting the Brushes to the External Power Post.
Slip the Brushes off the Commutator.
Look for a Thrust washer - inside the Case - surrounding the port for the case bearing bushing.

With the starter exploded. Clean.
Use straight Isopropyl Alcohol loaded into a sprayer that has the Stream or Spray option.
("Honey, did you see the Windex. I can't seem to find it.")

Withdraw the Armature.
Spray everything until its completely clean and what you are spraying ON is as clean as what is dripping OFF!

Shoot the Commutator, Brushes, Brush Housing, Electrical Lead and the inside of the Electric end Case. Clean.

Shoot WD-40 on the CLEAN windings and magnets.

Lube the whole-works as you reassemble the Starter.

Using Top Quality Synthetic Waterproof Grease:
Everything and every surface on the Planet - Business End - gets lubed as it's reassembled.
Shafts, shaft bushing ID's, washers, spacers, gears, pivots, bushings, etc.
Grease everything. Either liberally -- for function, or smeared-on for both rotational forces on it ... or, to hold it from slipping as you reinsert bearing shafts into bushed port on the case.

Spin the Planet Shaft after its re-clipped in and grease the rotating Planet Gears -- "On the Fly" ... as they rotate around the inside of the Ring Gear.

Lightly smear washers and spacers on the Electric End ... but, don't allow the grease to contaminate electric connections and Commutator.

Get a dab of grease into the port on the Electric end; and smear the end of the shaft which fits there.

Now, the fun and games of getting the Brushes lifted onto the Commutator and everything lined-up and back together begin.

It's like a Chinese Puzzle.

Only ... "Made in Japan" !

 

Alright thanks, when I get the chance I will give it a try; I have no idea when I'll get that time, but I've bookmarked this and will update you sometime in the future.

Thanks again!

-Matt

 

Totally agree with Rick, it happened to me. If you move (kick softly) the starter motor and it starts, you bet it is the carbon dust!

 

And it is not hard! 1 hour max.

 

My father was able to start it with no difficulty today. I'll look into it.

 

I just did this myself and I agree with Gene about the 1 hour from start to finish. I would add that you should check your brushes for wear and contamination. (I was looking for Rick to point that out They dont wear as fast as the alternator brushes do but they do wear faster if contaminated with a grease carbon paste. I also took the time to clean my comutator. Get one of those big erasers that first graders get and go to town on the shiny part after you have removed the grease. Check for pitting which is a sign that your brushes are stuck or too short while you are erasing.

 

Also check for a loose wire.

 

I still think you should overhaul that Starter. I think everybody is on the threshold of needing their Starter's cleaned.

Sure ... the "Low Miles" crowd isn't going to need it as bad as those with 25,000 and Up ... but, 20-Years can't go away.

I've been looking at "Spikes" in trouble related issues. I think there's going to be more No-Start's happening because of Spark Plug Wires getting old and breaking down.

The fact that there have been a few who have had No-Start in rain-related and post wash related cases make me wonder about the quality of the Spark Plug Wires used on the Original Coils, anyway!

 

You know, Monday I hosed mine down good with the pressure washer.

Fired it up before the water finished running off. I seem to have original coils/wires/caps. I'm always amazed that I can do that to 26 year old wires. I can gauran-darn-tee that I've never had wires on a cage hold up like that.

Having said that about mine though, I expect most are failing.

 

I would only add to Rick's description to mark the position of the gear and planet end before you start dimantling. It can be tricky to get back together in the exact position.

Don't get discouraged by Rick's long and perfect explanation, it looks longer than it takes!

 

Remember when I said

?

Well, I have time now. And I have it all in pieces, it's FULL of oil, gummy-greasy-muddy bits, and the brushes are worn right down. So I'm going to go out to get some "high quality synthetic waterproof grease," some Isopropyl Alcohol, and hopefully some brushes. I wonder how I will fair getting it together. On the flip side of things my last day of classes (hopefully ever) was yesterday, 4 more exams and I'm a computer engineer.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes.


As usual I have some questions:

Because it was full of oil, is there another problem, a seal missing/degraded/broken?

The thing fell apart after I took the.. case bolts? More like screws, out, are there seals I should replace on each end around the solenoid on the starter's case?

Also, with regards to the place where the starter sits at the engine, is there some seal there that prevents dirt and stuff from getting into the place of contact of the starter gear and the crankshaft (or transmitting gear)?
-When I pulled it away I saw no o-ring, or nothing...really... Is it just a tight fit?
-Is that the closest o-ring broken?
-Is that where the oil is coming from, that o-ring is open to the inside of the engine and it needs to be replaced?

Lots of questions, thanks again.



-Matt

 

Just to provide closure on this issue, what I ended up doing was getting another starter from a Maxim X. The starter I had was leaking from the gear-reduction end and the brushes were worn out.

Apparently they don't sell the endcaps separately anymore (ever?). The guy I talked to, fairly knowledgable about bikes in general, from what he gathers most of the XJs don't have that seal problem. At any rate, it has new brushes, it was very clean inside... Defintely lightly used compared to mine, brushes almost full length. I wiped it down, if anyone's interested I can show the before and after pictures from my old starter, it was pretty grimy.


Now I have ended up with some replacable parts for a starter. And if mine ever conks out, I can at least use one temporarily. The brushes were going to be like $22 each, and getting the 'junkyard' motor was $100. Its brushes are almost full, and it has no oil in it! The armature is nice and clean, not rough and as a bonus the seal works!

The 62-2020 (their part number), $22 brushes were the full size and they had an un-coiled cord. I am wondering how hard it would have been to attach them to the brush plate*. They could have ordered me a new brush plate; they didn't have any in-stock, I didn't know the price.


* The reason I say this, is that the negative is 'crushed?' onto the support plate, with a coiled copper wire, which comes uncoiled... It shouldn't be hard. The positive, however, is soldered (welded?) to the external bolt where the wire from the starter solenoid comes from. That needs to be isolated from the brush plate not to short, and I can imagine it would need to be soldered.


Anyway, all turned out good, my next task today is to change the throttle and clutch cables.



Talk to you guys later, enjoy your bikes!

-Matt

 

Matt:

Hold-on to the replaced Starter. The Seal is nothing more than an O-ring.
That O-ring keep the Engine Oil out of the Starter Case.

You saved some time by getting a whole replacement Starter; but you are still going to rely on the O-ring of the replacement to keep-out the Oil from the Crankcase.

You are absolutely right about Soldering the new Brushes in-place on the Contact Plate.
That operation is a bit tricky because you don't get much slack to do the job and get the Contact Plate back-in surrounding the Armature.

But, the Old Starter just needing a Cleaning and some New Brushes is a valuable Spare Part I'd hang-on to until the replacement Starter proves it can perform like it should.

 

Yea definitely, it was not that easy to come by. Though it seems to be fine as of now. Also the cable replacement went fine, the shielding on my throttle cable was broken at the connection to the console, where the L is, so I had to replace it. The clutch cable I just wanted to replace, it's old and gummy, probably never been done. Both new ones are nice and shiny and lubed up.

 

I have "Saved" plenty of Throttle Cables that had a rip or tear in the outside covering by using a couple of layers of Heat Shrink Tubing.

If the Cable isn't frayed or the strands separated ... the Heat Shrink will work and allow you to lube the Cable with no problem.

If the actual Throttle Cable is rusted badly ... don't waste the Heat Shrink!
Get a new Cable on there.
Having a Cable break can cause the Throttles to stick and could be dangerous.