What about temp readings on the exhaust?

I havent searched this yet, but was curious how this would work. Havent tried it on my bike yet, but it's running pretty good anyway. But when i read threads about popping exhaust, or lean and rich conditions on one carb (who knows which one) i cant help but think. I know lots of you guys have used infrared thermometers where you can just pull the trigger and get a laser spot where your aiming and get super accurate temp readings. Some of you in maintenace or on the local fire dept like i am may also have access to thermal cameras. My thought is that a lean or rich condition would have to affect the exhaust temp of each cylinder and this could be detected easily with a meter. Is this feasible? Not a replacement for a colortune kit, but maybe a way to get a problem carb identified quickly.

Maybe that logic is all BS, but that wont be the first time i came up with a stupid thought.....lol

 

That sounds like a good way to verify that all 4 are set the same, especially the infrared camera.
It would seem to me that if you tweaked each carb for max pipe heat, you would end up too lean, so you're still back to reading the plugs.

I put a zip tie on each pipe, and see which one melts first.

 

Well the idea is not to tune to max heat, the idea would be to get all the temps the same, theory being the hotter pipe is leaner, or vice-versa. Also if you had a bad plug, it would be obvious which one was cooler. Like i said, not suggesting using this as a replacement for tuning, just perhaps another tool to have (if it works). You can get the guns now for less than $60.

 

Stock pipes are double-walled. Wouldn't that fact throw this line of reasoning WAY off? Any variation in the exact location of the inner pipe in relation to the outer would give an anomalous reading, would it not?

 

true, to an extent. With a gun, you get quick response over a target area, so i suppose as variation does occur, you still should get a nice avg overall. with a camera (i realize this is mucho expensive and i aint suggesting this for something for everyday users) you get a wonderful pic of the whole pipe(s) area, so variation would be minimal. Even with a double wall, you still will conduct more heat to the outside as inside temps increase.

 

True. My point was that using "external heat analysis" to compare the state of tune of each cylinder to its brethren might be skewed a LOT by the fact that there could be subtle manufacturing differences between the double-walled pipes rather than by one cyl running hotter or colder than the others...

 

Well it all hinges on the fact that neither of us know exactly what the difference in the temp of the exhaust gas is on a cyl with a proper mixture vs one with a lean/rich mixture. It doesnt matter, it was just one of many dumb thoughts that pop into my head during the day. It's way too damn hot and humid down here for me to take my bike on the carport and start tinkering with the mixture and an IR gun to satisfy a hypothetical theory.

the world may never know......

 

I think it is a very good idea. and will let you know the temp of a properly tuned exaust. as mine is as close as one can get at this time.

 

brownells
a little cheaper, just for a test

 

yeah, that stuff works pretty good, i used to use it to test armatures and rotors going through our varnish oven. I'm not even suggesting that this method even works, i just thought if someone were running a little lean or rich on one carb, and they had access to something like this, maybe a little experiment would be in order.

 

Wouldn't the pipes on the outside be cooler than the inside? higher temp delta between outside pipes and surrounding air.

 

Yes they would. but when they are all firing the same then the temp should be the same. Kind of like synking the carbs.

 

Regardless of the metal type or how thickness or how double walled it is an apple is still an apple. I used this method when I was tuning but I shot my laser at the cylinder head near the base of spark plug. My theory was that the closer you get to the heat source the better. I was able to dial in an other wise crazy bike. I now have put 2600 miles on it since I tuned it and (knock on wood) no issues yet. It pulls hard and idles smooth. Give it a try it cannot hurt.

 

Off topic for a sec,
Can anyone tell me how to heat treat or harden steel?
Maybe a link to info, or PM me- - thanks.

 

ok you got me
300 deg tempilstik, just above the last bend
l to r from on the bike went 1,4 3,2
1 and 4 went almost the same time, slight delay for 3, then long delay for 2
plugs are old i'll pull them tomorrow and see if there is any relationship
it has a slight lope when choke is on or not fully warmed up but warm it's smooth as glass at 1100 rpm and pulls right to redline
now i got to clean this crap off my pipes

 

Wow! This is funny. It was really just a wild hunch as to wether or not it would even work, then anthrhelping says he actually used it, that's pretty cool. And i know what you mean on the accuracy, you have to look at the scale on the side to tell you the beam size at a given distance.

And polock, you just had to go see! I'll have to shoot mine now and see what averages i get with it. I think a thermal image would be cool as crap on tuning one.

 

TimetoRide what are you trying to do? There are many types of steel and you wont have luck trying to harden low carbon cold roll or hot roll. For mild steel though there are case hardening solutions that work pretty well. You can have mild steel carbeurized at a shop or get some chemical treatment like Kasenit that you can do yourself. If your going to go out and buy some stock, then depending on what you get like A2, D2, O1, etc... you have to bring them up to temp in an oven and then draw them back in a process called tempering. I aint no metalurgist but there is a solution for about anything.

 

ok mad scientists here ya go
pulled the plugs and they do follow the tempilstik results
1,4 hot side of normal
3 just right
2 dark side of normal
these plugs have been in for 3K miles, so they are what they are...old
just going to regap and put them back
remember never-seize

 

I'm having trouble cleaning that red dot off my pipes.

 

OK, so when i get home today, (i remembered to bring home my gun) I shot the pipes. Right at the first bend, bike running, most ran from 260-300. BUT... #1 held at around 180!! holy crap!! What do you think? I didnt leave it idling long for obvious reasons, but i plan to look at this more when i get back from a trip to indiana this week.

 

I would say #1 has a black spark plug.

 

Will check that Friday. Plugs have less than 1500 miles on them, you think it's a weak spark? No noticeable missing.

 

maybe running a tad too rich on #1. I have been wrong before.

 

this may explains my problem. I've got spark on 3 & 4. I know this becuase i've shocked myself a few times lol. I know it's got gas because the plugs are wet. My carbs were tuned by rickomatic so I know those are golden. But maybe I adjusted the 3 & 4 too rich. Would that cause a misfire?

 

Well, ... when you left we weren't exactly dialed in. There were some snags we hadn't worked-out quite yet.

What was troubling me was why the 4-Hole would fire the Colortune Plug and not Fire the Spark Plug.
That got me to thinking it was a Ignition related issue related to the Coil.

The 1-4 Coil Ohm'd-out in a funny sort-of way. The Primary's were giving me a Zero or a "Shaky" 2.0 ... intermittently. The Plug Wires were good right on 11,000 steady.

1,2 and 3 were hitting. But, all of those three were still Lean.
I had hoped you'd bring them to where they'd be colorized by monitoring the Plugs and tweaking.

But, now that the 3-Hole isn't firing I'm not too sure what the deal is.
I think the odds of BOTH Coils being bad on one side are two low to blame the Coils.

I'm going to go over to the Yamaha Dealership and take a close look at the Ignition Wiring Schematic for the Seca 750 and see it there's any connection to the Instrument Panel displaying the Warning and a possible Ignition Circuit fault that we don't know about.

 

Ok I have the time and the lazer temp gun, I need guide lines.

We do tune with fans running , right?

And this should be done with a warmed up motor, right?

And it's a given that all this will tell you is uniformity of exhaust temp across the cylinders. Basicly still have to use plugs to get color uniformity, equaling proper air/fuel mixture

And my bike is not dialed in but would love to establish a range for temp on exhaust. and just maybe I will get it dialed in, in the process.

And this almost has to vary due to different exhaust systems and to some degree tuning on any given bike. ie. some like it a little rich some like it a little lean
Because I can say up front my 1 & 4 are running hotter than 2 & 3

 

this is what i've been doing because i have a problem with cylinder 3 and 4 not firing. Rather than touching the pipes or pulling plugs to figure out which one is missing I can just shoot a beam on it and get confirmation right away.

 

just tried this for grins (so many toys at work, eh?). but i couldn't get a consistent reading off any of the pipes - i think the gun's "cone" changes too much with distance. i also think 2 and 3 (on a properly tuned engine) should still read hotter just because they're in the middle.

 

I've been playing around with this as well.

On my GPz, which has black headers, I get good readings. These readings vary considerably from pipe to pipe, but I know the bike isn't running right, so this is to be expected.

On the SECA, which is running well, and the plugs show it, I can't get good readings. The SECA has chromed pipes. I noticed also that on other reflective surfaces, like the clutch cover, I don't get a reasonable temp reading (way too low), but on matte surfaces, like the block or head, accuracy seems good.

 

i went out and measured mine pipe temps today. After reading rickcomatic's carb tutorial, i was a little alarmed to find that my pilot screws were very different from each other. like ranging form 1.25 to almost 5 turns. Not surprisingly i'm getting some odd pipe temperatures too. For the most part my bike seems to be running rich (the familiar acceleration lag, smell of unburned gas, and an occasional backfire after i've been riding around for over 10 minutes.

These were exhaust pipe temperatures taken at the first bend. I used the temp sensor on a craftsman multimeter 82337. No lasering or anything here. i physically held the temp sensor to each of the pipes. temps in fahrenheit.
1)265 deg
2)164 deg
3)204 deg
4)328 deg

What's the temp range of a properly tuned bike? I feel like 328 deg indicates lean, but where should it be? 250? 300?

 

Look at the Plugs.
(A ColorTune Plug would put you within Fine Tuning Range very quickly.)

But, without one ... look at the Plugs.
Adjust the Mixture to achieve a dark, tan color on the Ceramic surrounding the Electrode.

Once you get close to what you want.
The adjustment becomes a TWEAK
Not a Turn.
Not a Half-a-turn.
Not a Quarter-turn.
A Tweak ... you can go from too Rich to Perfecto ... within the width of a Nickel.
(Or less)

 

I think that this is a great way to diagnose a "cold cylinder", But I wouldn't use it as a method to tune the carbs. If you find one cylinder to be off, and decided to adjust the pilot screw to correct it, Wouldn't that throw off the balance and require a tune anyways.

Just my thought, does that sound right.
I really can't judge though, my neighbor tuned my bike by ear. Not sure if he has it right or not, but it stats and it runs and it doesn't give me any fits, so I am afraid to mess with it.

 

Nice necro bro

 

Rickomatic,
I wasn't aware the screws were that sensitive. Mine are 3 to 3-1/2 turns out now. You say tweeking them that little bit makes a difference? Looks like I will need to go out and tweek my screws today!