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bad battery?

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by skeeter, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    well, i got my new valve shims back in and everything is in spec now. giddyup!

    so i went in the house, and grabbed my battery, the bike started right up and i revved it a couple times and then i remembered "oh shit, i didn't check the oil" so i shut it off and verified that i had oil, started it up again, and it didn't want to stay running at idle. and finally died.

    after that, it would not start - it would crank and crank and crank, but no start. so i put it on the charger. while i was waiting for the battery to get to full charge i verified that i had spark and was getting gas.

    (the bonus is that while i was waiting for it to charge, i decided to investigate why one of my turn signals wasn't working - blown bulb. and i also inspected my rear brake pads - they look good to me, so that's a plus too).

    anyhow, after the charger indicated full charge on the battery, i was able to start it again. and i could run for a while and rev it up, but the bike won't idle for more than a couple seconds without full choke. and then it dies and wont start (will crank and crank, but no start). charge the battery and it starts.

    i'm guessing it's the battery, but am looking for other things to check becasue the battery isn't very old.

    so, that's the story.

    i'm also wondering if i'm ruining my batteries, because last spring i had to replace 2 other batteries. so, this is how i've been maintaining them - hopefully someone has some insight?

    i have one of these:
    [​IMG]

    the light is green when it's charging and flashes green when it pulses to de-sulphate.

    i have 6 batteries and i charge them one at a time, once in awhile i'll just swap it over to the next battery. i keep the batteries in my basement, so they're not getting freezing cold.
     
  2. Altus

    Altus Active Member

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    Sounds more like a carburation problem to me. Our bikes don't generate enough juice at idle to charge, so you're running strictly on the battery. A fully charged one has enough power to spin it fast enough and give the ignition full power to get it started, but after a while at idle there's not enough anymore.

    Plus what you say about needing full choke, and the way it's behaving... I'd have to say the carbs need attention. Looked at the plugs?
     
  3. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    If the valves were really out of spec but the carbs set to run with them that way, now that you've adjusted the valves, you may need to re-adjust the carbs.

    It could also be something goofy and seemingly unrelated like a plugged gas cap vent; and the battery charging thing is secondary.

    What's the output on the battery tender? I use a similar device, a Deltran "Battery Tender Jr." to keep 3-4 batteries happy all winter and have no issues.
     
  4. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    hmm -

    the valves were pretty good: #2 exhaust was tight, #4 intake was loose.

    i've also been running it with a temporary tank that is certainly vented well.

    started it up again this morning and realized it was only running on cyl's 3 and 4. so now i'm off to a)check spark on 1 and 2, b) open the drain screws on 1 and 2 and verify i'm getting gas.

    i'm thinking that the bike was actually flooding out and that the time i spent waiting for the battery to charge was just giving the engine time to "de-gas" and start again.

    will report back with results.

    i'm so glad i started working on this bike now instead of waiting for riding weather to arrive and then start working on it.
     
  5. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    1 and 2 both have spark, and i verified both carbs are getting gas. i also swapped the plug wires for 2 and 3 and nothing changed.

    i'm gonna give the ol' seafoam a chance to bail me out, but it's looking like i'll be pulling the carbs off. <grumble>
     
  6. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    i think it was a combination of things - i pulled my carbs and i'm pretty sure #2 enrichment circuit was plugged. i was planning on pulling them anyway as i wanted to install larger pilot jets. (bike had a stumble at 1500-2000 rpms and i think this was the cause).

    anyhow, blew everything out and put the carbs back on and 1 and 2 still weren't running. so i decided to swap plugs for 1 and 4 and lo and behold, 1 came to life and 4 no longer fired. so i guess i'm chalkin it up to bad spark plugs.

    although, honestly, they didn't look that bad. i think i'm gonna look into my alternator brushes - as i think my real problem is weak spark.
     
  7. seaguy

    seaguy Member

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    When you get it running on all four again start it up and read the battery voltage as you race the engine a little. battery volts shoud read 13.8 to 14.2 vdc and go back to 12 or 13 vdc idling. If you race it up and it stays the same then it's alt. or charge ckt wires .
     
  8. PainterD

    PainterD Active Member

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    You may want to check your charging system while your at it. (not saying that's your problem)

    Tools Needed

    Ammeter (stand alone or as part of a continuity/voltage tester)
    A couple of feet of 12 gauge or larger wire
    10 mm wrench to remove your seat and negative battery cable


    Here's How:

    Turn a few things on (headlight is good) to drain the battery just a bit. We want the charging system to be pumping out some juice here and if the battery is already fully charged the alternator won't be working hard enough for our purposes.

    Remove your seat. Remove the negative battery cable and hook your ammeter in series between the cable and battery (one wire to the cable the other to the negative battery terminal)

    Get ready to start your bike.

    Touch the negative battery cable to the battery terminal while you're cranking the engine over. Using just your small jumper wire to the gauge could do damage, mainly to the ammeter..

    Once the bike is running pull the battery cable away from the terminal. All power will now be running through your jumper cable and ammeter. The ammeter should be showing a charge.

    Start turning things on and watch the rate of charge fall.

    When "everything" is turned on, high beam, turn signals, spotlights etc. run the engine up to a normal cruise speed (much easier if you have a tachometer) and determine the excess amperage available. Is there enough left to power that heated vest, gloves, another set of lights, a radio or whatever? If you're still charging at idle you're golden! If you have to run the engine up a bit to produce enough charge it'll be something to consider while riding in town.

    Remember you need at least 2 amps left to charge the battery.
     
  9. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    good news: i pulled the alternator cover and i have plenty of brushes left. i did check my charging system last year and it was good.

    bad news: it looks like at least one of my coils is bad (or if i'm lucky, just the spark plug wire). i get O.L. on my digital multimeter between plug wires 1 and 4 - it briefly flashed 25 M-ohms a couple times. i took the boots off and no difference in the reading.

    didn't check the other coil - dinner was ready . . . that's where i'm quitting today.
     
  10. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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  11. Altus

    Altus Active Member

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    Won't work - those will destroy your ignition system.

    3 choices for replacement ignition coils:
    A - get OEM replacement -- Chacal, ebay, whatever...
    B - Dyna DC1-1 coils (preferred), like these:
    Dyna DC1-1
    C - Accel Supercoil kit #140403, like these:
    Accel coils at Dennis Kirk
    There have been reports of incorrect resistance issues with the Accel coils, especially for motorcycles, the last few years though....

    I have heard tell of another option - coils by Nology called ProFire:
    Nology ProFire
    Nology Part #152 051 350
    They seem to have the right specs - HOWEVER - I can't find anything about anyone ever trying them on our bikes, so who knows...
     
  12. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    hmm - well, i'm thinking my options are

    a) replace spark plugs, cross fingers, keep fingers crossed at all times

    b) cut off old wires and check resistance on coils, cross fingers and hope i can splice on new wires

    c) do some coil surgery, remove old wires, cross fingers and check resistance on coils, and install new wires

    d) drop some major coin on new coils, tighten belt and relax fingers.
     
  13. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    e) pick up a set of coils from a low-mileage bike off eBay.

    Actually, it's easy to "saturate" a plug so that it looks perfectly fine but WILL NOT fire and you won't be able to dry it out.

    Set your suspected "bad" plugs somewhere warm and dry and test them again in a week or two before you discard.
     
  14. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    that's a good tip, fitz. i had the wife pick up some new plugs on her way home from work yesterday (now i have to do the dishes, but it was worth it)l

    i'm gonna throw those in and see how it runs and maybe i can get away with just pretending i never ohmed out my coils.

    after all, i did have spark on all cylinders. i think i'll verify spark inside the cylinders with my colortune, too - i seem to recall reading somewhere that just because you get spark outside the engine doesn't mean you'll have spark inside the cylinder. something to do with increased pressure and a "wetter" environment.

    if that system fails i think i will try rick's method of cramming a piece of copper wire up the spark plug wires and see if the ohms change and/or it'll keep running on all cylinders.

    if that don't work, i think i'll cut the wires off near the coil(s), ohm out the coils there and hope i just had bad wires.

    the good news is that by the time i figure out that i do need new coils, my tax return should be arriving. . .
     
  15. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    ok, so i put 4 brand new plugs in and it started up easily. i let it run for awhile and all 4 pipes got hot - so i know it's running on all four cylinders.

    i checked the plugs and the insulators were all white on one side and black on the other. they were also all wet.

    i put the colortune on plug #1 and it appears to be running slightly lean and every once in awhile i get a bright orange flash.

    i'm thinking the wet plugs and occasional bright orange flash both would be symptoms of un-burnt fuel. does it make sense that weak spark would cause this?
     
  16. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Spark tends to be an either it do or it don't situation, if it's firing on all 4 but you're getting the symptoms you describe, I would say you have one or more floats set too high or carb pluggage somewhere (or a vacuum leak, like throttle shaft seals) and you're getting blops of "un-atomized" fuel thrown into an otherwise lean condition.

    I agree that the wet plugs and occasional bright orange flash indicate "un-burnt fuel" but I don't think ignition is the cause.

    Something else is going on. Have you checked/set valve clearances and run a compression test yet?
     
  17. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    i checked compression last summer and, if memory serves everything was in the neighborhood of 130 (i wrote it down, but now i'm at work and don't have my notebook with me).

    i just did my valves and everything is in spec now (#2 exhaust used to be too tight and #4 intake was on the loose side).

    i have been seriously battling a too lean condition since day one on this bike - i chalked it up to the 4-into-1 exhaust and replaced the main jets with 124's last summer and shimmed up each needle with 2 small washers. after doing this i was able to run the bike on the highway and get some color on my plugs, but it was stumbling at take off - that's why i put the 41 pilots in. the throttle response seems much better now - even in neutral, up on the center stand, there used to be a slight hesitation when twisting the throttle and that is gone now.

    i've checked and checked and rechecked for air leaks with both propane and spraying carb cleaner and couldn't find any. i also coated the outside of my intake boots with RTV just to be safe.

    i set my float heights first with a digital caliper and then the clear tube method last summer.

    i did ohm out one of my coils and my mutlimeter read open loop and would occasionally flash 25 Mega-Ohms. that is the only reason i'm suspect of the coils. if i hadn't done that, i wouldn't suspect them at all.

    as time allows i will double check my compression and re-check my float heights - i'm back to work now, so it might be a few days, but please keep the ideas coming.
     
  18. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    hmm - i'm starting to think floats are too high. when i set them, they were level on the bench - not tilted forward like the are on the bike.

    i'm thinking being on the centerstand, raising the back wheel makes the fuel level even higher.

    i'm definitely gonna check the float height on the bike. maybe i'll try jacking up the front of the bike and see if that changes anything . . .
     
  19. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    You're supposed to set them level, whether on the bench or propping up the bike to get them level.

    If you DO have a flaky coil, it could contribute to your symptoms; the meter reading is troublesome.

    Might be worth $20 to eliminate it as the cause... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/82-Yamah ... ccessories

    That's a "buy now" not an auction, too.
     
  20. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    thanks fitz, coils ordered - i must not be very good at ebay - i searched this morning and didn't find anything. and if it turns out the orig coils were ok, i've got an experiment i've been wanting to try anyway.
     
  21. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    oh yeah, i was thinking about fuel level in the bowl and it seems to me that based on the way the float is hinged, the fuel level at the front of the bowl would be the same whether the carbs were level or if they were on the bike tilted forward, right?
     
  22. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    good news (sorta): i ohmed out both coils and confirmed that i still get open loop between 1 and 4, and i get 21 k-ohms between 2 and 3, so new coils are definitely in order (here's to hoping that solves my problem).

    i also checked the float heights, on the bike, on 1 and 4 (i don't know how anyone can do it on 2 and 3 without taking the rack off. . .) and, if this description is clear enough, the fuel comes up to the lip on the bottom of the carb body on the front of the carb - which, i believe, is spot on.

    a little perplexing, though, is that on both carbs i had some air bubbles and i had to bend the tube around a little bit to clear them before the fuel would rise to the lip.

    maybe this isn't an issue, but now i'm wondering if there's something keeping my bowls from filling completely.

    i'm assuming the bowls have to vent to atmosphere somewhere in order to allow them to fill properly, most carbs i've dealt with have an overflow tube connected to the bowl drain that accomplishes this, but these hitachi's don't have that system, so - do these carbs vent to atmosphere and if so, how? is that what the jets on the air box side of the bore are for? is it possible that these are clogged and are causing my bowls to not fill properly?

    course the real conundrum is that these carb worries seem, to me, to point to a lean condition, but when i look at my spark plugs, they are wet? ? ?
     
  23. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Yes, those are the bowl vents (in the carb throat, facing the airbox).

    Yes, they could get clogged, but it's highly unlikely, as those are huge vents!
     
  24. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    what's on the other side of those jets - i.e. if i shot compressed air into them, i'm assuming i should get air blowing out somewhere in the bowl side of the carb, but where should i expect it to come out of? i looked at the drawing from the haynes manual, and it doesn't show the pathway for those jets . . .
     
  25. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Those jets lead directly into the bowls..........
     
  26. xj-tabi

    xj-tabi Member

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    Skeeter, your problem sounds like what I was having on my xj900. It would crank fine but wouldn't start. It then smelled gassy. I would then try to compression start it and if that worked I was good to go but having to feather the throttle until it was running strong. When I came to a stop I would have to baby the idle to keep it running. At work one day it did the same crank but not start, but I this time I couldn't get it to compression start so I found a service truck with jumper cables and jumped it. It start right away and cranked a lot faster than it was on it's own. I ended up replacing plugs, that looked good, and a new battery. I think my problem was the battery. I think the cranking amps of the battery, although enough to crank the engine over, was not enough to the coils to produce a hot enough spark to ignite the cylinder fuel. I have no starting problems now nor any idleling problems.
     
  27. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    once i put new plugs in, it starts very easily. i'm hoping the replacement coils straighten the problem out, if not, i'm going to double check my battery and charging system.

    sounds like we have similar symptoms with a weak spark situation, but i think while your issue was battery related, i'm thinking mine is coil related.
     
  28. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    new coils arrived yesterday and they ohmed out good so i put 'em on. i could definitely see a stronger spark and the bike seems to run marginally better, but i don't think that was my problem, as it doesn't want to idle without choke (unless i'm just not letting it warm up enough - it's too cold to open the garage door and i don't like breathing all those fumes, so i haven't let it idle for very long. - i think i'm gonna wait for warmer weather.

    in the meantime - i'm thinking about replacing the throttle shaft seals, is there a walk through on breaking apart the carb rack? i can't seem to find one. i'm assuming you just need to unscrew from the rack and you also need to take the butterflies off the shaft?
     
  29. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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  30. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    thanks for the links robert, but they don't address my question "do you need to remove the butterflies to replace the throttle shaft seals"

    fortunately, i took my carbs off to clean them again last night and i was looking at the rack and it appears you do not need to remove the butterflies. so i anwered that question myself, i think.

    i also found a bunch of black crud dotted all around the inside of my bowls. i had been running sea foam in the gas, and i think the mixture was too strong sea foam and it was eating the float bowl gasket. i cleaned that up, blew through every passageway (i'm glad i at least know them all so well now that i don't even have to think about what goes where) and it STILL wouldn't start.

    then i realized i forgot to connect the choke cable. once i gave it a little choke, it fired right up and i was able to get it to idle with no choke. time will tell if this is an actual fix.

    the bad news is that while it was idling i checked the voltage on the battery and, even if i rev the bike up to 4k or so, it stays at 11.5V (grumble)

    oh, and i also discovered an exhaust leak, right in the "crotch" of where all 4 pipes come together. think i can jb weld that or something?

    edited: i meant to say "bad" news, but for some reason i typed "good" news. but i did find some good news - looks like permatex makes some exhaust repair stuff that should work.
     
  31. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    Glad you found your main issue, I'm sorry if I didn't address all of your questions. You do not need to remove the butterflies to replace the seals but it sure makes the job easier.
    As for your 11.5v reading, what does that same meter say when you measure a new 9v battery? I've seen a few instances where a meter reads incorrectly and gives a false impression of the circuit under test. Make sure you are reading with a good meter. If you still have low voltage after this, you really need to check your alternator brushes first. low/bad brushes will burn out batteries and cause a host of other little nasties so I'd check them sooner rather than later.
    JB is good for some things and this may be one of them. It all depends upon surface prep, cleanliness and temperature. Lower on the exhaust means lower temps so you may be ok. Given that you cannot get a good seal inside of the leak, your fix may only give a short reprieve before it comes back so plan on a more permanent fix.
    Best of luck!
     
  32. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    thanks for responding, robert.

    that's a good tip about the voltmeter possibly being inaccurate - i'll double check it with my older analog one.

    i already checked my brushes and i believe they have lots of life left. there was a mark on the brush (kinda looked like someone pressed their thumbnail into it really hard) and not quite a 1/2" of brush beyond that. i was under the impression that the line is the wear mark and as long as you've got *something* past the mark, you should be ok.

    i've got a feeling they've been replaced by a previous owner because the alternator cover screws were allen head screws and not the "screws that look like philips head screws but aren't" that RickOMatic mentioned in his "check thine brushes" post.

    however, i am wondering if i messed something up when i checked in there - the cover kinda fought me going back on - it didn't seem to want to line up quite right. i chalked it up to all the magnetic stuff in there pushing me around so to speak. think there's something wrong in there?

    assuming the meter is correct, it is definitely a charging issue and not the battery, right? i'm assuming that even if a had a bad battery, the voltage would read whatever the bike is supplying regardless of what kind of shape the battery is in?

    also, would it be a safe bet that if there's low voltage across the battery and the brushes are ok, it's most likely a)a bad ground or b)a bad voltage regulator?
     
  33. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    The line on the brushes is the limit line. If you have plenty of brush past them, you should be in good shape.
    Replacing the cover can be a dicey affair, I can't say it is one of my favorite things to do either. I've fought the same fight as you so I know exactly what you are referring to. You do need to be sure that you slip it on square. It can, and sometimes does, slip on cockeyed so be wary. You are fighting the brush tension and the stator ring. It helps to have some idea of the alignment of the cover before you try to juggle all the parts into place. By this I mean ensuring that the stator is properly pressed into place at the right alignment (it is loose and will shift if you aren't on the ball). The other players in this act are the alternator wires and the seal that they pass through. That seal is hard as a rock by now and it doesn't like to flex very much so this can be a problem too. I recall juggling the seal, one screw, the stator and an allen wrench while trying to line it all up. Man I just don't like fussing with that cover.
    As for the voltage, if the voltage is low and you don't see any voltage increase at 4-5Krpm, you do have a charging issue. This does not mean that the battery is safe/good but it can be a good indication as to why it may not be happy anymore. Do you have a maintenance manual yet? If not, you NEED one. It is the best tool you will ever own for your bike. The Haynes has a section on how to test your alternator and so on. I've the factory manual for your bike (available on the XJCD, well worth $10) should you need further assistance.
    You can have the battery load tested to determine if it is sound or not.
    Most likely is a grounding issue but a bad voltage regulator isn't out of the question. Go through the bike and clean all of the ground connections (back of the engine case, next to the coils, near the voltage regulator, etc...) and see if that buys you anything. It's free and will eliminate one more item on your to-do list.
    Good luck!
     
  34. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    well, i was feeling a little inspired after work this morning, so i decided to take a look-see.

    i did a bunch of voltage checks on the battery and they were as follows:

    on the battery tender: 13.42V
    off the battery tender: 13.36V
    ignition on: 11.57V
    cranking the engine: 9.2V
    running at idle: 11.49V (running with choke at ~1400RPM)
    rev'ed up: 11.57V (assuming the tach is accurate, ~4000 RPM)

    i also checked battery grounding as follows:
    from the battery negative terminal to . . .
    . . . brake pedal: 0.4 ohms
    . . . ground wire on ignition coil: 0 ohms
    . . . bare* spot on valve cover screw: 0 ohms


    * the previous owner painted the engine black, but much of the paint is coming off, so i found a "bare" spot on the screw if ya catch my drift.

    i know i checked the charging system out last summer, but unfortunately i didn't take any notes and i was hoping i posted something about it here, but can't find that either. i *can* tell you i took several 200+ mile trips without the battery dying and giving me problems.

    do these numbers look alright?

    did i bugger something up with the alternator cover?

    did something go to sh*t on me?

    any input is appreciated.
     
  35. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    Good check on the ground system, that should let you breath a little easier. You still need to check the resistance to the ground wire on the voltage regulator. I am a bit concerned about your alternator output. I don't see how you can damage anything installing the alternator cover but it sounds like you do have a voltage regulator that is bad. They pop up on flea-bay regularly so a replacement shouldn't be a problem to find cheap. Source one and see what that changes. If no change, your charging system would be the next step given your alternator brushes check out. Oh, and I wouldn't take the bike out for more than a few miles ride until you get this sorted out.
     
  36. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    can you be a little more specific here? i'm guessing my voltage regulator is the thing on the left side of the bike with a big heat sink on it, right? resistance between where, exactly, should i check?

    thanks
     
  37. markie

    markie Member

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    [​IMG]

    The black (B) wire is the ground. Yes, the regulator (2) has heatsink fins.
     
  38. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    Thanks for the backup Markie! A picture is worth a thousand words.
    If the regulator isn't seeing the same ground potential as the rest of the system (or various parts), it could well think that it is correctly regulating when in fact it isn't. You have to ensure everything sees the same ground potential so everybody plays nice together in the sandbox. Incidentally, I've a few spare regulators in my parts bin should you require one.
     
  39. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    much obliged. i'll check it out in the next day or two.
     
  40. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Unplug and inspect the contacts in both sides of the big connector off the regulator; a common point of failure.

    Another issue that has cropped up occasionally with alternators is the internal corrosion of the tiny braided wires coming off the brushes themselves. The brushes may have plenty of wear left, but if their little lead wires are all green inside they won't carry much current.

    I think you need to pop the alternator cover off and do a careful inspection.
     
  41. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    good news: the black wire going to my regulator shows 0 Ohms to the battery neg. terminal, so that ground is good.

    bad news: there's a hole melted in the connector and the black wire came off the connector. i'm assuming the melting is due to the bad ground.

    question: do you think i fried that connection using my battery tender while the battery is on the bike? (if i did make a mistake there, i'd at least like to learn from it, ya know?)

    i figure i can get away with just cutting the ground wire off the other connector and and splice 'em together.

    the other terminals all had a light green corrosion on them, so i'll clean them up, too.

    it's kinda bittersweet finding out what's wrong, eh? it's a relief to know what the problem is, but, darn it, now you gotta fix something.

    at least now i have enough experience with this bike to say "looks like i found A problem" instead of "looks like i found THE problem"

    another question: are there any checks i can do to the regulator while it's disconnected to verify that the regulator itself should be performing properly?
     
  42. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    well - i got done with work this morning and after attending to a few things, then i reinstalled the voltage regulator. i cut the ground wire off the connector and soldered a new "bullet" connector to the ground wire and plugged everything back in. i checked the new terminal and showed good ground, so i'm 99% sure my re-ground work is ok.

    bike started up no problem. eagerly, even.

    unfortunately, i only get 11.61 V across the battery no matter how high i rev the engine.

    a couple minutes after i shut the bike off, it occurred to me to check if the regulator was getting hot. it felt warm to the touch, but definitely not HOT. not sure if it's relevant, but it's information none the less.

    anyhow - based on the 11.6V, is it safe to assume the alternator is ok and all my problems lie within the regulator?

    fitz- to check those lead wires, i'm assuming i should do a continuity check from the brushes to *somewhere*?
     
  43. markie

    markie Member

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    If you look at the diagram I posted, the brushes are not shown, but transfer the excitation current to the small coil shown next to the star shaped set of coils on the alternator (1). Hopefully, you have already measured that the 3 white wires are all connected together and not shorted to earth.

    To do a quick test for continuity, unplug the regulator (2) -Ignition off- and test between the brown and green wires - you should get a circuit, although I am unsure of the resistance reading. The regulator works by varying the strength of the magnetic field on the rotor (Hence the need for brushes).

    Fitz is suggesting that corroded wiring on these brushes could be the cause of your lack out output. You need to check them visually although your earlier post says you have.
     
  44. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Actually what Fitz is suggesting is that even though the brushes have a lot of "meat" left, the little braided wires could be green inside.

    It takes careful visual inspection (with a magnifying glass if necessary,) and "flexing" the little braids to see if they are corroded green inside.

    It's a condition that's not always readily noticeable.
     
  45. markie

    markie Member

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    Mark is very sorry!
     
  46. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    no apologies necessary, I was just clarifying. It's not easy to spot and easy to overlook.
     
  47. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    is there a spec to measure AC between the three white wires coming from the alt
    a reading to ground could show a short but what about a open ?
    i'am still trying to figure out how to change the throttle shaft seals without taking off the butterflys :(
     
  48. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    well - i did some inspection with the ohm meter and found 0 ohms between all the white wires - and i also found 0 ohms between the white wires and ground. i did find 9.7 ohms between brown and green, but i got some funky readings (like the Ohms symbol changed to Degrees F, C) on some other wires, and i was like "what the heck is up with my multimeter?" so i looked in the manual and it says not to check resistance on an energized circuit - so i think i will disconnect the battery and check everything again. . .
     
  49. markie

    markie Member

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    Between the white wires and ground you should get infinity ohms (The figure of 8 laying on its side), or a really high value. Best to check again.

    if there is a connection between the white wires and ground any generated voltage will be shorted out.
     
  50. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    ok - i rechecked and i got 0 ohms between the white wires and ground again. so, i pulled the alternator cover off and lo and behold - i got open loop/infinite ohms between the white wires and ground.

    unfortunately, it is because the wire for what i believe is the stator (the big coil of copper wires on the outside of perimeter of the alternator) came out of the grommet in the cover and was pinched between the cover and the housing.

    do you think i can just wrap some tape around the affected area insulation, tuck it back into the grommet and put it back together, or will this require closer inspection to make sure none of the internal wires are shorting to each other? i really have my fingers crossed that since you'res supposed to have 0 ohms between all the white wires, it shouldn't matter if they're shorted together in there, but my instinct tells me "it ain't gonna be that easy"
     

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