battery or solenoid? xj550

Been awhile since I've posted. With the fall weather I've been riding a lot, but with starting issues lately. I noticed that it was becoming harder to start so I eventually just bump started a few times when I really got upset. Holding the start button wouldn't do anything and after investigating, my battery fluids were extremely low. :evil:

So I may have exhausted my battery beyond being useful, but to finish this riding season I wanted to just get by with using distilled water and charged the battery. Put the battery back on this afternoon and hit the start button, but to no avail I didn't get a response. The red oil light simply lights up and I don't have any firing or anything.

The reason I titled it "or solenoid" is because when I turn the key to "On" I hear one click at the solenoid location. Electrical situations like this are confusing to me (ask hogfiddles, he's talked to me a lot ) but most of the other components aren't a bear to me. just electrical stuff.

So any ideas fellas? Thanks in advance. I would really like to get a few more hundred miles in before the end of the year

 

the solenoid should not click when you turn the key, only when you press the start button. touch a relay and you'll feel it when it clicks. i don't think that's your problem though.
when you said "The red oil light simply lights up and I don't have any firing or anything"..... as in the starter don't go or the starter goes but the engine won't fire up?
tests
solenoid clicks but no starter action.....bad solenoid
solenoid clicks starter spins, bike don't start........battery low
solenoid won't even click.....way low battery or bad solenoid
now with the charger on the battery try all that again

 

Also check inside the switch housing on the handle bar to make sure that the contacts are clean on the switch. If corroded. Clean with a rubber eraser.

Ghost

 

I love the easy ones.

It's not the solenoid; the "click" you're hearing from the area of the solenoid is the sidestand relay doing its job (or at least it thinks it is.) The sidestand relay is located back there near the solenoid.

The giveaway is the oil level light coming on when you mash the button. That means the safety circuit is "deployed."

The bike either doesn't know it's in neutral or it thinks the sidestand is down. If the neutral light is on, then it knows it's in neutral, which means your sidestand switch is likely acting up. Ridden through any big puddles lately?

 

the starter doesn't even go.

[quote="bigfitz52]If the neutral light is on, then it knows it's in neutral, which means your sidestand switch is likely acting up. Ridden through any big puddles lately?[/quote]

Okay I follow your logic fitz but I was stumped 20 minutes ago. I get home from work and attempt to fire up the bike. Nothing besides the typical clicking mentioned previously. And in one instance I turned the key and the light to turn on (green neutral one) was delayed.

Let me back up the story though: Monday I got home from AutoZone where they tested and charged the battery for me (it was good they said). So I turned the key "on" and she fired right up. Nothing to it. Yesterday I came home and turned the key on and she fired right up. Nothing to it. I haven't ridden the bike to work because of scattered showers in the forecast. Plus I haven't narrowed down the root of the problem. Any other help/advice fellas? Is there a way to completely get rid of the sidestand relay to avoid future problems?

 

Let's go over it again.

The RELAY is probably fine. You probably have a flaky switch, either sidestand or neutral.

When the red "oil level" light comes on instead of anything else when you press the starter button (nothing else will happen) it means that the bike thinks it's in gear with the sidestand down.

If the green neutral light doesn't always light up, then it could be a flaky neutral switch. (Bike thinks it's in gear.)

The key will be if the neutral (green) light is ON the next time it won't start and gives you the red light. If it's NOT on, then it's in gear or the neutral switch is acting up.

If the green neutral light is ON and it still does the "red light comes on" thing, then it thinks the sidestand is down, probably due to a flaky sidestand switch.

The neutral switch is located under the sprocket cover on the left, and just ahead of the sprocket. Not the most hospitable environ.

The sidestand switch is hanging down there in the road spray. Worse yet.

The sidestand switch is the most likely culprit. Or the neutral switch. Probably NOT the relay.

You don't want to eliminate the safety circuit becasue you cannot SEE the sidestand under your foot when it's down and it's too easy to ride away with it down. Because of its geometry, if you then roll into a left hander and the stand catches, it will lever the rear wheel off the ground and drop you on your butt.

Fix it.

 

Also, what parts could I swap from my 650 onto the 550 for trial & error? both are maxims and the 650 is sitting in the shed not moving for a long time (until I get around to fixing the motor mechanics-long story behind that one)

 

Only the sidestand switch and it's probably in just as bad of a shape.

Your 650 may not even have one, depending on what "series" safety circuit it has. Even if it has a sidestand switch it may not have the relay.

The neutral switch is different and located in a different place.

It's not a "trial and error" thing. The exact behavior when it malfunctions will diagnose it for you. (I added additional comments to my reply above.) A multi-meter on the switch leads will help too. See Len's guide: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27543.html

 

I have a spare kickstand switch with the blue wire & a yellow tracer stripe, terminating in a 2-position white plastic connector shell and the solid black wire, terminating in a 2-position white plastic connector shell. Using Len's guide this is probably a spare '82 650 maxim model which came from other same year parts I acquired.

On the bike's (550 maxim) kickstand switch it has a blue wire with a yellow tracer stripe, terminating in a male bullet connector and solid black wire, terminating in a sheathed female bullet connector. These connectors (located just behind the engine crankcase cover) are NOT coming apart for me to clean the connections and I don't know why. They are extremely stiff. They should correct?

Anyhow, I unplugged the white plastic connector shell which connects together the bike's kickstand switch, near the starter solenoid, and plugged in the spare kickstand switch described in first paragraph thinking that if this worked it should allow the bike to start "on" with no hassles. Tried it and still the same situation so this spare kickstand switch may be faulty too, like you mentioned Fitz. No surprise I guess. I suppose I'll look around to see if I can acquire another kickstand switch...

 

So I take it when the problem occurs the neutral light is always on.

Yes, those bullet connectors should unplug from each other; the fact that they won't means they're not loose...

The problem is likely the switch itself. Examine it closely, is the boot still in good shape, or split in the folds of the "bellows?" Pop the little clip off the plunger, and pull the boot away enough to get the straw from a can of contact cleaner in there, and flush the switch out while operating the plunger in and out. They often respond to a good flushing out.

Put a meter on the switch leads and test it. Same for your spare. Guessing is no substitute for diagnosis.

You can TEMPORARILY bypass the switch by unplugging the two bullet connectors and then plugging the two harness leads into each other.

But doing this is just asking for the day you forget and ride off with the stand down. If you're lucky you'll wind up on your butt in somebody's front yard and not the middle of a busy intersection...

 

Got 'em loose and plugged them (the bullet connectors) into each other that were part of the harness. Still the same scenario. I turn the key "on", a click occurs, the bike is in neutral and green light stays lit, hit the start button and the red light shows up but no starting action. This is becoming frustrating... haven't ridden in weeks because of various reasons and this situation hasn't helped either. I performed the TEMPORARILY bypass like you mention, note I said mentioned and not "suggested" because I agree Fitz. I'm not going to solve this problem the easy way out and not have it functioning properly. But even my attempt to temporarily bypass the switch failed as described already.

Honestly I don't understand how to test these switches. I had my father test the spare kickstand switch from a 650 I acquired, and his co-worker (who is a guru with his meter) told my father it works. He even showed my father (at their employer's location) with the electronic meter. So I know I've got a good kickstand switch. The problem is I tried that spare kickstand switch earlier (see above-Oct 16) and it didn't solve the scenario at that time. :roll:

 

Let's go "nuclear." Unplug the safety cutoff relay (pretty sure it's up under the tank, check your diagrams) altogether to confirm temporarily.

If it's NOT the switch itself, then suspect the wiring between the switch and the relay before you suspect the (sidestand) relay. It's always possible it could be the sidestand relay, but I'd suspect wiring first.

If the neutral light is lit, the neutral switch is working but it could be a wiring issue related to its input to the relay(s) as well. I'd put it at the bottom of the list though.

 

I'm starting to wonder if it isn't something with the neutral switch wiring issue related to its input to the relay(s). This white plastic assembly is located within an inch or so from the shift shaft rod, correct? There is one wire that has a flat head screw holding down the wire and 3 flat head screws holding the unit. I can tell that before I got the bike the previous owner had messed around with this because one of the screws is stripped...

it looks like this unit ... http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Yamaha-XJ-600-51 ... ~60_58.JPG

Oh and I did your "nuclear" comment. Unplugged the safety relay located underneath the tank near the coils. Nadda change...

 

Then you unplugged the wrong relay OR you gots a strange problem. Unplugging the safety cutoff relay should completely disable the whole safety system.

 

video proof

so my breath is louder than I thought... anyways, first thing in the video I show good charge on the battery. then I zoom under the tank to show the safety circuit relay has been disconnected. then I go around the bike to show the kickstand relay located on the rear of crossbar (frame) has been disconnected. then I go down to show the kickstand switch has been disconnected and the two bullet connectors on the harness has been connected together. all this combined produces NO click sound when I turn the key "On" and yet I still get the red oil light every time I push start.

I appreciate Fitz's help through this. But we're in this as a community so if I could get others' input it would be great. I'm sure Fitz isn't the only one who has worked on something like this, or has knowledge of the electrical gremlins of a kickstand switch... please, I'm beggin... to go from riding several thousand miles this summer to a complete stop because of this is frustrating

 

Dude. The behavior it's exhibiting is exactly what would happen if the safety circuit was "deployed" when everything else is working fine. If I go out in the garage right now and put the sidestand down on my 550 and drop it in gear, switch on and mash the button, I'll get the "oil" light and no cranking.

Question #1: I don't remember exactly which diagrams I sent you from the factory book. Did I send the starting circuit fault isolation diagram, or just some basic 550 stuff? The FSM troubleshooting guides are great, and I have your email already.

Question #2? Do you have a multimeter (DVOM) and a basic knowledge of how to use it?

For some reason it's acting like it's being safety interlocked.

I can't see the color of the wires on the relay you unplugged under the tank. The flasher relay is under there too, what were the colors of the wires in the plug you pulled off that relay? How many wires? If it had three, it's the flasher relay. The safety relay has 4:

* Red wire with white tracer stripe
* Black wire with white tracer stripe
* Blue wire with yellow tracer stripe
* solid Black wire

(From Len's guide that I posted the link to.)

I think you unplugged the wrong relay; and the problem is in the wiring between the sidestand switch and/or its relay or maybe with the neutral switch; but only one wire leads away from it so if the neutral light is lit, then the switch itself should be fine.

Unplugging the sidestand relay while the safety relay is still plugged in will create the same symptom as the sidestand switch simply being unplugged. You can leave the sidestand relay plugged in, once you unplug the safety relay then it matters not.

 

the first thing to do is unplug the solenoid and see if you get power on the bike side of the plug when you press go. just measure across the 2 pins. with all the safety mumbo jumbo unplugged you should. check it and see

 

Polock, I tried your suggestion and confirmed it. There is power on the bike side of the plug...whether the key is off or when I turn it on and press go. One thing I noticed was the battery voltage dropped from 12.6 to 11.3 when I turned the key on this morning. The temperature has been dropping here in Ohio so I'll definitely get it charged.

Fitz, I have several circuit diagrams from you dated June 2012 through email. One of them has the starting circuit isolated so yeah I suppose I could look at those. But electrical diagrams in general have so many arrows, squiggly lines, and circles I don't know the terminology behind it all.

SAFETY RELAY: so you are telling me that everybody could unplug this relay (which I did in the video; confirmed the 4 colored wires & its location), and if all wiring is correctly working the bike should still be able to start?? I obviously have more wiring to trace and testing to see where the culprit is then...this is just about as bad as tracing electrical problems in a house! ugh

 

Yep. If you unplug the safety relay it should eliminate the interlock system and allow the bike to start.

Something else is afoot. Check the connections in the headlight shell; specifically the diode block's plug.

 

if there's voltage on that plug without the key on you have wiring issues.
the battery is being drained all the time when the solenoid is plugged in. there should be no voltage there when the key is off

 

i found this fine work by FrankBlack and a lot of things point to the diode block but if there's voltage on those solenoid wires with the key off then off is not truly off and that can't be right.
unplug your ignition switch and hot wire it, see if the problem goes away

 

studied the adobe flash player link you gave me Polock. damn, somebody put a lot of time into that! i'll save the link for future references. Tonight I spent some serious time investigating all that I could. I took apart the headlight shell and pulled every connection apart and sprayed them with electrical contact cleaner. Found the diode block plug both of you mentioned and cleaned it with contact spray as well. Also I took apart the white plastic plate where the neutral switch is located and cleaned this up. One question about this particular piece: I pulled the white plate away from the bike and beneath that is the ground point that touches the plate at the same spot where the neutral switch wire is held also. Anyways when I pulled the white plate away a squirt of oil came out with it. Is there always suppose to be a small amount of oil that sits at this location (between the neutral switch plastic plate & the transmission drum)? I can snap a picture of the particular location I am talking about...

Anyhow, went through and determined that my kickstand switch is in-fact working by leaving it hooked up, and using the neutral switch wire to touch the knub where the white plastic neutral switch plate sits while the key is on. If this wire isn't touching then the green neutral light doesn't light up. If it is touching the green neutral light comes up.

Lastly I found where the clicking (when I turn the key to On everytime) is occurring: the neutral switch relay. Any thoughts?? What is really perplexing to me is the fact that my bike should start right up if the safety relay is unplugged. Nodda single thing has changed though whether it is plugged in or not though...

 

The "neutral switch relay" IS the safety relay.

How can it click if it's unplugged?

Oil behind the neutral switch is OK. That's the transmission in there, it's supposed to be oily.

 

back to my post on
Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:02 am
those wires go to a coil of wire, they should be dead with the key off. does your battery hold a charge?
don't overlook the easy stuff, take a hard look where the wires come around the steering neck and under the tank for pinched wires.
you can test the diode block with your meter and don't count out the ign switch yet.
you might need to jump out each relay to find a bad one.

 

The neutral switch relay was located just behind the cross tube of the frame under the seat, and has a blue tab on it. This is the relay that was clicking this evening, while the safety relay has been disconnected. The safety relay was the relay located under the tank, just in front of the coil pack, with four wires and pinpointed in my video that has been disconnected. Am I getting the relay terminology & location(s) mixed up?

Polock, I'll look into other wiring for pinches and will start to find out how to test each relay. I am 'flipping' a re-possessed home by myself while I live in it so lately I've had no extra time to fool around with the bike but on decent warm days it aggrevates me that I can't ride.

 

The relay you're talking about back under the seat is the sidestand relay. There are only two relays in your safety circuit. One is the sidestand relay and one is the safety/cutoff relay. The neutral switch has no relay of its own.

Relay identification and location guide: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27543.html

 

walked away from the bike for awhile to calm myself down. started looking into this problem again tonight. like I determined before, the sidestand relay is the one little booger that clicks when I turn the key On or Off. so my understanding from re-reading everything in this thread is that my bike still thinks its in gear? thus my sidestand switch (the thing mounted near the kickstand with the plunger & little boot) must be bad? I've done the trick that bigfitz52 suggested with removing the safety relay and it doesn't change anything

For chits & giggles I played around with the neutral switch wire that hooks onto the white plastic cap mounted to the side of the transmission (drum?) The green neutral display lights up with the key is on and when I pull the wire away, the green neutral display does not remain lit. So this must mean my neutral switch is working properly, correct?

please don't take any of this serious if I am pissing people off by sounding annoying and stupid. I'm trying to take a cool-headed approach to this without getting myself frustrated. i'm sure ya'll understand!

**edit, I also used a crappy screwdriver for the bypass and my bike cranks over. Immediately after that I was able to mash the start button in three (3) separate times and the bike cranked over. Three times!! but after that I couldn't get it to crank over although the screwdriver bypass always cranks the bike over anytime. Me thinks something is working intermittently...

 

okay! so made some progress... I was able to acquire a working sidestand switch and used that to replace the existing one. Mounted it and hooked it in, and flipped the key to On and still heard the sidestand relay click. Hit the start button and she cranked over! did it twice and after that nothing

At this point, I need to make myself clear on one thing... when you turn the key on should you hear ANY relay click or will the bike be silent?? I haven't ridden in ages (literally like 2 months at least) so I can't even remember. Please help this biker get back on the road! I even have a riding suit to wear in the cold

 

I hear the relays click on ALL of my bikes when I turn the key to ON.

I'm still reading and listening, not ignoring you........

dave

 

I always heard a relay click on mine when I switched on.

Just wondering something, now I've gone back over the whole thread & re-read it. If the oil level sensor thought the oil was low wouldn't this cause the same thing?
The fact that it turned over when you shorted the big bolts on the solenoid & then immediately after the button worked 3 times suggests to me a bad connection somewhere, possibly a bad ground, that's being affected by the movement/vibration of the engine cranking over.

Is the oil light still coming on *every* time you push the button?

 

Yes a relay will click when you turn the key on.

So it worked fine twice now "nothing?" The same nothing as before, accompanied by a the red light on the panel when you mash the button?

 

Yeah & correct, respectively. Several of you may think I'm joking but I'm not; Wish I could have an experienced person here to show them since its probably something very simple... Relieved to know there is a click for other people who turn their bikes on. Can anyone else verify for me where that click comes from? Thanks in advance.

I've often wondered why the starting safety circuit is directly hooked to the red oil indicator in the first place. Its one thing to have a low oil indicator and should be another to have a safety starting circuit but not at the same output in my opinion, but I wasnt the engineer(s) who designed this. Wouldn't it be more convenient if the oil level sensor had its own indicator separately? maybe I'm too noob to understand this stuff but at least I'm trying

 

I think it's intended as a way to test that the low oil light is working, although it could just have been to save a few yen in wire lol

I believe the click is either the sidestand relay clicking "on" if you have the stand up or the safety relay clicking "off" if it's down...

Have you tried this, connect a test lamp between the 2 small contacts of the starter solenoid & see if it lights when you press the button? If the lamp lights then but the engine doesn't turn it's most likely the solenoid playing up.

 

When I get home I'll switch on my properly-functioning 550 and identify what's clicking for you.

 

so, it had to be the starter solenoid.

of all things, the starter solenoid.

really, seriously, of all things the starter solenoid.

gahhHhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

While at work today I figured what the hell, I'll just swap starter solenoids from my 650 which is currently sitting in the shed not functioning properly (major mechanical problems from 18 months ago, yeah I've been getting lazy... but the story is too long to explain). Anyhow, with a simply push of the start button on my 550 now the bike cranks over every flippin time. I KNEW it had to be something simple. but really? how did I miss this?

I'm slightly baffled by how the problem was right there in front of me. Polock apparently was on the right track from the get-go so perhaps that was my fault for not paying more attention to it. My apologies. I just thought that when the few times the starter solenoid bypass trick worked, it should've been fine. After 29Rbloke mentioned something about the starter solenoid this morning, I had a gut feeling about it.. this should've fixed it and now another XJ will be out on the road again!!

One last question: starter solenoids are interchangeable from 550 to 650 and vice versa, correct? ha

 

From a 550 to a 650 to a Sears lawn tractor if you insist. Yeah, they're the same; just a big relay. A mechanical one.

Long term, consider replacing it. The new ones are solid-state.