confirmed confirmed & confirmed, now what

it's not the carbs yaaaay

it's not the ignition yaaaaay

basically the main problem is explained two ways, but the real problem is the non combustion of air/fuel in 2 & 3 holes.
the two explanations are:
-no power under 3500 RPM
-no combustion in 2 & 3 holes until the 5th stroke or so, tells the lil tattle tale Colortune plug

reverse the low tension leads to the coil, swap the plug wires, the problem flollows to the 1 & 4 holes and 2 & 3 are buring nice and pretty, TaDaaaaaaa

see, it's magic

what we KNOW:
-2 TCI's, same symptom
-resistance on pickup coils are good tested at the TCI connector
-resistance is good on the coils, tested at the ends of the plug wires
-0.something Ohms on all pickup coil and low tension coil wires from front to back, back and forth, side to side, to hell and back
-it's not the carburators
-coils are new Dyna
-resistor caps are on spark plugs (haven't tried with them removed)
-tan plugs at high speed plug chop
-blue perfect ignition on cylinders that fire with each spark (using the Colortune, this means all cylinders when working properly by the wire swap)
-when the bike is cold, the coil connected to 2 & 3, where the problem is (that I can make move to 1 & 4), will fire correctly for about 15 seconds when the bike is cold (and man does it sound sweet). then you could start to hear it miss as it gets slightly warm. doesn't have to be ice cold, it happens after a 2 hour cool down too
-I'd have to imagine the 2 & 3 holes is burning properly above 3500 cause it feels fine up there

what could this be says the STUPID MAN

what we don't know:
-WHY lol

could it be one of the new Dyna coils is Crap (the one for the 2 & 3 hole) even though they Ohm out OK?

could it be one of the pickup coils is Crap even though they Ohm out OK?

it's not the TCI or the wires, so it has to be one of the above right??????????????

Comon guys, think think think think think think think think think, anyone have spare set of pickup coils and ignition coils to ship me? maybe the next generation of people will be smarter, as usual, and my unborn kids will fix it

 

You isolated the problem. What you describe is swapping the coils, and the problem moved with the swap.

It's the coil, high tension wires or caps.

 

Just reading through this and reading your diagnostics, I would assume there is something wrong with the Ignition Coil. Since it follows that coil when you swap wires. I would need to look at a wiring schematic(which I don't have here) to see where the pick-up coils fit into the equation, but if all you are swapping is the ignition coil common sense would say that is the culprit. Just trying to look at it as simply as possible. I don't know the inner workings of them but it could be that something inside that coil is building up a charge or resistance as the bike runs causing it to stop sending out a spark regularly and then discharges when it sits.

 

The only other thing is a poor ground connection on the "Bad" coil. Try cleaning it up. Otherwise, you need a replacement.

 

I'm getting butterflies in my stomach just thinking you're right. keepem comin fella's

 

I'm having the same problem (anxiously waiting for the new Hyperpak TCI to arrive!) i replaced the plugs, caps, ignition coils with no luck, but if you swapped those wires and the opposite coils fired, you've eliminated everything but the TCI and the pickup coils... did you check and clean all relevant connectors?

i'm not sure if pickup coils would test good even if they're bad, mine test good too so i haven't suspected them (yet), maybe someone could lend their experience? it's possible the pickup only fails under full voltage/current and it passes the ohm test because the multimeter only delivers a very small voltage/current.

i think the only troubleshooting step left is to swap the pickup coil wires. if cylinders 1/4 fire just like when the ignition coils are swapped, that would indicate to me that your TCI is good and it's either a bad pickup coil or poor connection from TCI to pickup.

if swapping wires doesn't make a difference, it could also still be the TCI, my problem is with 2/3 as well, that pair may be more fail-prone for some reason...

 

well I bought and tried a known good working TCI and the issue persists.
MiCarl, can't imagine it being the high tension wires becauase that would mean Both are bad and they're brand new

so to swap the pickup coil wires I need to remove them from the white plastic connector and switch the positions?

 

whats the voltage reading at the coils? you might not have enough voltage to fire both coils probbibly not the answer but worth checking also check the voltage at the battery while its idling for some reason regulator ect could be acting up just a shot in the dark. if your swapping the grey and orange wires and it swaps cyls would almost have to be a coil wish i had a spare for you to try i know how annoying ignition problems can be

 

Cutlass there you are, knew you're good w/ the this ignition stuff and was expecting to see you in the topic 'TCI didn't do it, this bike hates me'. that thread is too damn long now so I had to start this new confirmed scenario topic. well, I tested the battery V today w/ increased idle and it went to 14.something, so it's good. forgot to put that in the original post above. but thanks so far everyone

 

sorry maybe i misread your post, did spark follow the coil or change between coils when you did the swap?

 

tibor, i had to draw it on paper cause I'm not as quick as MiCarl either lol. the best I can explain it is this, when I switched the low tension leads to the ignition coils and then put the 1/4 plug wires on 2/3, everthing stayed the same except the ignition coils (and high tension wires but they Both can't be bad so forget them). so like MiCarl says, the problems been isolated and looks like the coils...

MiCarl, I gotta tell everyone here cause it's funny. MiCarl just figured out a problem on my 72 CB350 in the 'other motorcylces' forum. Damn thing has brass floats and I was able to hear fuel sloshing around inside them! I hope he's on a roll today! well for other members too

 

lol gotcha, i was just doing the same i was thinking you only swapped the low tension wires and it changed cylinders - there is a single spark sent to each cylinder when you turn the key to on, that is how i've been doing my troubleshooting so i didn't account for the high tension wire swap that you did. so ya forget my previous post, could be a bad ground to the coil. sometimes the part of the frame where the coils bolt to get rusted/corroded or painted over if the frame has been refinished. just file it down to clean metal if that is the case.

 

I thought if there were two wires going to the coils, like there is (red/white and grey or orange) the red/white one is the ground, no? and then the other ground is the spark plug screwed into the head, i dunno

 

the two wires going to each coil are powering the primary coil, the secondary coil (higher voltage) is connected to both the ground of the frame and the spark plug. without the ground, it won't complete the circuit and the spark plug won't fire, or it will fire very weak (or until there's more voltage i.e. above 3000 rpm?) because it takes much more voltage to create two arcs - one between the ground connection and the other between the spark plug electrodes on the other side. check that connection out with a multimeter first and let us know if it's good or not.

 

so to clarify between the frame and the coil mount (the metal ends on the coil where the bolt goes through to secure it to the frame) should be 0 ohms.

 

ok i get 0.3 Ohms on both coils with my leads here in the picture

 

the red/white are power supply they interconnect in the wire harness the grey and orange wires are trigger wires from the tci if it has an electronic tach the orange wire triggers it also they should have about 1.25 volts. the coils ground where they bolt to the frame

 

Take a Spare Spark Plug.
Plug it into EACH Plug Cap and L@@K for Spark WHILE Cranking.

You're not going to die!
Hold the Plug Cap and Ground the Plug to the Head.
L@@K for the Discharge.
Make sure you got Spark.

Go to where you GROUNDED the New Coils.
Make SURE the Coils GROUND Terminal IS Grounded.
Shine the spot where the Ground Wire touches the Frame with Coarse Sandpaper.

Call DYNA's Customer Service Line and Talk to a Tech.
See if there is something you might have Overlooked.

If YOU wired the Coils.
Make sure you Mounted the Plug Wire on to the Coil Output Pin and didn't miss the Wire's Center Core during the assembly!!!

 

Well I did the spark plug in my hand thing. Snowwy says there should be a 6mm gap using a screw driver connected to the plug wire and I only have 3mm. What is the coil output pin? These coils only have a recessed hole for the plug wire to get jammed in to, and there's no ground wire, just the mount which is the ground as shown in the pic above. Tmrw morning I'm going to do one final test and swap the coils from one side of the frame to the other And try to mount them a little differently.
Yes I made the Coil side of the wires only, using the correct crimper and they are real strong with the wire core folded over. They Ohm out at 0.0. Should I try taking the resister caps off the plugs?

 

Inside the recessed hole is the Connection that needs to be centered into the Slug Core.

I'm glad they didn't send you any more Plug Wire.
You got Plug Wire laying on everything.

TRIM the Wires.
The wires go from the COIL to the Plug Cap and you don't need any more wire than what it takes to make the trip + 1-1/2 Inches of Slack.

If Spark Plug Wire lays up against the Frame or on to a Metal Part you can lose Spark.

Run the Wires from the Output on the Coil to the Plug.
Insulate anywhere the Plug wire touches a Ground source with Split Rubber Hose.

You got WAY TOO MUCH Plug wire.
WAY TOO MUCH.

 

and

Ummm....I don't think that the coil itself is grounded to the frame.....the spark plug is the ground for the secondary side, and the TCI provides the "ground" for the primary side of the coil.


Yamma, the resistance measurement that your are making in the picture above is not important, you seem to be measuring the resistance between the coil central support bar and a valvecover bolt (which is a "ground", eventually), and that reading---although perhaps "correct"----doesn't really "mean" anything in relation to the functioning of the coils.

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2 ... t=tci.html


A key question arises: are you getting 12V (or so, maybe a little less) to the primary side of the each coil (along the red/white-stripe wire) when the key is on?

 

I tend to agree with Chacal. On this "wasted spark" system both 2/3 and 1/4 plugs fire at the same time... because the secondary of the coil (high voltage side) is terminated only by a pair of plugs on either end.

The coils could conceivably have a center tap, but I don't think they do, because it seems to me that if you pull the cap off plug 2, plug three will also quit. If there was a grounded center tap on the secondary, plug 3 would keep sparking. If you had dual colortunes you could see it firsthand... but who has two colortunes?

I don't think it's your pickups, either, because when you swap coils and plug leads #2 and #3 work fine. It's got to be the #2/3 coil or the associated wires/plug caps.

When I did Dynacoils I remember being concerned about attaching the wires onto the connectors... in particular I had to push really hard to seat the connectors into the coils. Used a lot of silicone grease in the boot. I soldered the wires to the connectors. Check out HAP's guide to installing dyna coils on the Maxim-X here: http://www.maxim-x.com/dyna_coils.html might have some good tips, I'll be it's a wiring/connection issue.

 

i think you're right, my bad, so are you saying the coils' physical connection to the frame is not really a ground and does not have a bearing on its functionality?

 

I went to the auto part store and bought new crimp heads to make the shorter wires, as you can see in the pic the wires literally touch nothing, they are perfect.

I then physically changed coils from one side of the frame to the other, without switching the low tension leads. Then I made a new mounting bracket on one end of the coil so they Both could face down (for the best wire routing). I used a rod and threaded it on one side w/ double nuts to keep it in place (solid as a rock) and even put a nylon nut on the top to super ensure the low tension leads could Never touch it, there's even a gap between the nylon nut and the wire securing screw.

so what we have is a very isolated pair of coils and plug wires that touch nothing

I felt Really Really good about what I did

pushed it outside, fired her up

2 & 3 are only firing

exhaust pipes on 1 & 4 are ice cold, I didn't even let it warm up all the way. I'm disgusted
short wires pic

home made coil bracket pic

 

Also, the red/white wire going to both low tension leads both have 11.0V, key on, not running

in the bottom of the above picture (of the home made bracket/threaded rod) I extended that black ground wire with a red wire, you can see I soldered and heat shrunk it. Just curious, that IS supposed to be there right? I had to extend it cause I'm not using a bolt in the frame mounting hole on that side any more...

 

It seems like all your tests just prove that something between the sparkplug caps and the low tension leads on the coil connected to 1 and 4 in your last example IS the problem. How did the low tension and high tension ohm out? Did you post the results of that in one of these posts (as instructed to measure in the haynes manual)?

SOMETHING is wrong with that coil, whether it be the plug caps, the leads, the coil windings (both primary and secondary), the low tension leads, or the connections between. What happened to the old coils? Did either of them work before? Ever thought about switching your bad new coil with one of the old ones that ohms to spec? Just to test?

What you need is TWO GOOD coils. You have ONE. You know you do because when you use it on the cylinders that aren't firing, they magically do fire. No matter which pair of spark plugs the BAD coil gets, they don't fire. You have a BAD coil assembly...it could just be in the connection between the parts, but it's there.

 

what about the brown/orange trigger wires? are you getting 0 ohms from the coil terminal to the tci connector?

 

If something was wrong with his low tension wires to the coil, the problem wouldn't follow the coil. yamahaman I saw in your other thread that you ohmed out the high tension leads (that go to the spark plug). What about the low tension leads? There is an ohm spec for each side of the coil.

 

are the plug caps new or old? did you pull them and test resistance on the caps and the coil on that end (with caps removed)? something to try but it does sound like the coil is done. and unfortunately the ohm test will only tell you if there's a break or a dead short, it won't tell you if it will fail under full voltage/current.

 

yeah, 0 Ohms on all wires. can't be the caps cause everything got switched when I shortened all the wires. HAS TO BE THE COIL even though it Ohms out Perfecto. the old coils went in the garbage 1 YEAR AGO when I got these. I've been troubleshooting this thing for A YEAR

 

manbot, yeah just an idea to rule out the low tension connector on that coil.

 

I think that is true of many other electrical tests you can do on a motorcycle. But the coils have a spec for the high tension and low tension leads. There can be problems that develop as the coil gets hot or wet...but none of that seems to apply here because one just doesn't work.

Usually an ohm meter can't tell you if an electrical connection is good enough to carry a load, but I believe the coils are an exception, because their resistance is high.

 

ManBot, the primary spec is 3 Ohms, I get 3.1. all the plugs and caps are brand new that I bought with the coils. plug wires show 0.0 Ohms

 

that's too bad, i learned my lesson never to throw out old parts, you never know when you might need them in the future. i always keep a box of old parts for each bike just in case. it's possible there was a poor connection before that blew the coil (i believe those coils come with a warning that misfire can damage them) and even though the connection is good now, the insulator in the coil has probably failed and it's arcing inside instead of at the plugs.

 

tibor, yeah i normally do keep stuff, have tons Right Now for other bikes, i kept all the other stuff i replaced on this bike, for same reason. anyway, I don't think I ever had a bad connection, that's the thing, I never found a bad connection. this whole thing is like God wanted me to be home schooled for vintage bikes

 

i feel your pain, i'm in the same boat right now.

 

Yamaman, did you check what I was saying about the plug leads at the connection to the coils? Are you sure that's solid? Did you push the connectors on the wires all the way into the coils? Forgive me if this seems obvious... it wasn't to me.

When you say the coils ohms out ok, is this from a measurement taken through the plug wires?

 

Chazmati no doubt your input is appreciated. Pri & sec coil Ohm readings were taken with & wothout wires - all perfect. The supplier agreed to ship me a new coil & I already returned the suspect one. With any luck it will be here Saturday and I will resurect this thread. The low tension lead connections are real good, thnx again.

 

that's great news that they are replacing it, where did you get them? on mikesxs it says there is no warranty with those coils...

 

PM Sent

 

IT WOOOOOOOOOORKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WORKED IT WORKED IT WOOOOOOOORKED BAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. made it to be a Red Liner until I got the damn thing figured out but It's Alliiiiiiive. new coil in today, let it warm up 5 mins, all holes firing, hit the throttle and I couldn not beleive my ears. I got on the thing and it actually pulled away with Awesome power, unreal, I never knew the bike had that much power. Colortuned again, adjustments were needed, and synced with the Morgan Carbtune Pro, took about 45 secs to sync
anyway, it's slightly chattery off the line, i'd say under 3k (but it wasn't the first time i pulled away on it ), I don't know why, I can't imagine what else there is to do. very rarely it'll run perfect off the line but 70% of the time it's chattery and then kicks in nice and smooth just above 3k. Damn brand new Dyna Coils took a year of my life. Oh, so it tested perfect, but just wasn't.
last thing, I don't know where I am on the mixture screws, maybe I should check each one and compare?

 

Now, ....

You can adjust the Lengths of the Plug Wires and make them look like they belong on that Bike.

Congratulations!

ColorTune it again.
Open the Screw until you get Blue.
Keep going until you get through the Blue.
Leave it there, ...
Or, ...
Go back to the Blue and Plug Chop the Holes "Individually" ... as needed.

 

Rick, go back one page (pg 2) and check out the shorter wires, I hope I made you Proud!
when you say 'through the blue', you want me to leave it buring orange? what I did was went through the blue to the rich side, went further until it turned orange, and then came back in just as it turned blue. sometimes it will be both orange and blue so I kept coming In till it was just blue, left it there.
maybe you're saying I should leave it orange...

 

Aftermarket junk!

 

Congrats!!!!! I really happy to hear this worked for you. A little richer on the pilot mixture screw and you should be TEARING off the line. As Rick would say...you are in the fine tuning range. Width of a dime or less adjustment.

Again, congrats.

 

Leave it Blue.

Then, you'll need to Tweak it for hesitation coming off-idle.

Go to the Far-end of the Blue and just where the Blue goes-away, ... and you have the Hole pretty damn close to on the money.

Beautiful Idle.
No farting-around getting away from a light.
Medium tanned Plugs
Badda-bing; badda-boom.
Done.
Ride.

 

AND THERE WE HAVE IT. 2 motorcycles fixed in one weekend.

bout damn time yama.

this coming weekend is memorial weekend. 3 day weekend. i'll meet ya in the middle between utah and new york and let's do some damned riding.

CONGRATS MAN.

 

As long as I leave the ball & chain home I might make it there & back without all the pea breaks!

My hat goes off to you as well sir, good job

 

good to hear you got it figured out and on the road again!

cheers,

Trev

 

. . . and They ALL Lived, ... Happily; Ever-after!