dpawl31's *Update* on his Maxim

OK guys, so if you haven't heard what's going on with my bike, I just finished valve job. I am now attempting to get it running correctly. I tweaked my pilot screws got them back to stock. They were 5 turns out when stock is 2.5 to 3!

Now it won't run, and the sync is definately off, and it just runs like crap. Idle is way out of whack, and cylinders 1+4 were running very cold.

Here is my update:
Got my color tune at last
Put in cylinder 1 - plenty good spark, but no burn.
Same in 4.
Went back to 1 and bam, it was burning, and instantly started running better. Odd!
Went back to 4, started flashing a bit. Not a lot.
Tweaked sync screws and pilot mix etc, got it to burn a bit now and then, and it didn't seem to change much.
My guess is now - when I started running berryman in the gas, it loosened some long stuck PO crap in the carbs, which in turn got stuck. Now it's not running right.
The spark seemed to get weaker the second time around and after that, when I FIRST put it in cylinder 1 is was REALLY strong. Nice clean sparks after that, but not as bright.
Could a weak battery cause inside 2 cylinders to run good, and outside to not?
Now, my main theory is the pilot and enrichment circuits are dirty, but not 100% blocked. (on 1+4)
The only sync screw I played with was between 3+4, but it didn't do much. I figured if I have to pull the carbs to fix that one, what's the point of messing with the others.

So my next step defiately seems to be the carbs. But I really hate the idea of crackin em open and having to replace everything.
What's it going to cost me to replace all the rubber seals/gaskets etc that must be replaced, in the whole carb setup?

I doubt I will need any jets/needles/floats. Just the basic seals and what not. Any ballpark guesses? I will probably PM chacal soon for that too. But lookin for a basic guess.
I will be armorall-ing the intake manifolds and soaking the intake boots then hitting them with armorall as well.

I really really really don't want to break the carbs apart... I think I will go for a 1, maybe two step process. Do the boats and under hat area, and bench sync/clunk test, but skip breaking the linkages etc.
Is it easy to tell if I need to replace fuel rod seals or whatever, without ruining good ones?

If you guys could try to answer my questions in bold, I would be much appreciated.



Oh and a few other notes - working in my friends shed, bought him a new dual-4 foot light for better lighting, am organizing it for him, and also put my gas tank IN the attic area and ran the fuel line right down through the ceiling to the bike, will get you guys photots because it's a really cool setup lol.

 

Man, I hate to say it but if uou are going to go to the trouble of pulling the rack then you had probably better just figure on rebuilding the carbs correctly. It seems that those who try to save even ONE TINY step in the process wind up chasing their tales until they finally follow the step by step process from one end to the other.

There are excellent write ups In the FAQ'S on how to do it right.

The $170 number seems to stick in my mind for parts to rebuild the carbs but I don't remember if any tools were part of that number.

Good luck with this.

 

If it's $170 - the bike's getting sold. It was bought for the simple purpose of it running and getting me to work, now it can't do that.
The bike could pay off the taxes I now owe.

I DO NOT want to sell the bike. But no way in hell can I afford that now. I have already dropped $200 in parts alone. I should have never touched it, just left the damn screws 5 turns out and suck up the 30mpg instead.

I don't mind the time. I just don't think I have the right 'skills' to get the carbs back together tight and level. From what I have seen -getting them back together with the rack and whatnot is not easy. And I don't have clamps or benches with levels and junk.

I really thought I was looking at like, $50 for new seals, gaskets etc.
Anything over $100 and this things going on craigslist. Already have the POS SECA wasting space.
Speaking of that, maybe I can part that out for parts for the Maxim..... but I want the SECA running someday too. Damnit. Why does the economy have to blow, and why do ALL PREVIOUS OWNERS SUCK SO BAD.

Once again - someone telling me to break them no matter what. I guess I will... but it's either going to lead to a bike being sold with the carbs off it, or sitting in the shed wasting space for the next 6 months.
Uncle sam screwed me - told me I owe them for the first time EVER, instead of a refund, and ALSO said my taxes were WRONG 2 years ago, and owe $600 to that! Awesome!

Thanks for the input as always... but this thing is just KILLING me sitting there... 80 plus hours a week and I am so sick of it. No time to do jack crap.

 

Suggestion: Since it was running halfway decent before you started fiddling with the carbs (the valve adjustment could only have helped) how about put the screws back where they were, and do a simple vacuum sync with a homemade bottle rig. That should get you in the ballpark and at least get the bike running enough to use the colortune.

Fully charge the battery first.

One thought: You said "5 turns" and you put them back to 2.5-3. When you are talking about "turns" are you talking 180 degrees or 360 degrees? Turns means revolutions as in 360.

 

Full 360 degrees!

I do not know for sure where they were anymore, I know at LEAST the #4 was 5.5 turns. But I have also messed a LOT with the vac sync screws. So probably no chance of that getting back to where it was.
And I ran carb cleaner in the gas for about 6 tanks, so I am sure where it was running before is lost. I fear I have loosened gunk and clogged it now.

Fitz... I trust you so much. How much are the MUST GET gaskets o rings and seals going to run me...?

 

A lot if you just blindly buy everything.

The best plan is to tear it down carefully and replace only what you need. Some of the o-rings will turn out to be fine; sometimes float bowl gaskets separate cleanly and sometimes they shred. Float screens can turn out to be perfectly fine, or rusted to the point that they are self-clogging. Float needles can be fine or pounded bad and needing replacement, you can't tell without examining them. There's no need (necessarily) to just buy everything; the trade-off is the time spent in careful diagnosis and examination. There are two ways to do this: The "shotgun" approach which costs considerably more but then you have all new stuff; or a more "frugal" restoration in which you clean, examine, and replace only those things that NEED to be replaced. No sense buying a complete float valve kit for instance if the screens and needles are fine and all you need is the o-rings under the seats; but if the float valves NEED to be replaced, the whole kit makes more sense, dollar wise. Once again, you can't tell until you look. You DON'T need to completely break the rack to do basic carb maintenance and inspection.

Before you even rip into it, why not pop the rack off, and do a bench sync; check the float levels (don't mess if they're OK) set the mixture screws at 3.5 turns out, put it back on and see what you get? Or if you honestly think it picked up some crud, drop the float bowls and clean them out.

You said it was running pretty decent when you got it. The valve adjustment didn't make it worse. You may have soaked a couple spark plugs and made them less than wonderful, the battery sounds like it needs a charge. If you've twiddled the carb screws so bad you're way off, pull the rack and do a bench sync to get back to the beginning.

Yes, the carbs probably could use a complete rebuild. BUT they didn't suddenly get worse overnight; apply the "it ran yesterday" theory instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. Get back to where you were.

 

Fitz - I love you.

Just when I am down and out, you bring me back...

I will pull them, get a basic look at what's going on in there.
Clean the bowls and everything I can clean without removing much.
Will bench sync and try a clunk test as well.

What is the best way to check float levels?
I have never done it, and have not seem it done all the way through.
While I do the carbs, I will give that batt a good charging.

Did I mention - I love you? lol

 

Hey man, sometimes it just takes an objective outside observer to help bring everything into perspective. Remember this is an inanimate object, despite the feeling that it is conspiring against you, you are its master.

The easiest way to check float heights is with the rack off the bike; using mineral spirits or windshield washer fluid.

You need to rig up some sort of a fixture (before I built my workbench I used my raggedy old "Workmate" portable thing) to hold the rack horizontal and level, side to side and front to back. Some c-clamps, a couple of 2X2's and an old bar stool works too (don't ask.)

Then you attach a length of clear hose to the carb drains (one at a time is fine) and supply the rack with your substitute "fuel." By holding the end of the hose up next to the side of the carb, the fluid level will tell you the level in the float bowl when you open the drain screw.

Somebody posted a really good set of photos of this process a while back, but I can't find it. My 'search-fu' is at low ebb this morning...

It's actually fun; kind of like a junior high science fair project. If you want to make it exciting, use gasoline instead and smoke a cigar while doing the check.

 

I don't smoke, but I do like fireworks... O_O

Anyway, looks like it's going to be some time before I get back on this thing.
Working on it 2 hours on Wednesday night, 2 on Friday, and 3-4 on Saturday is really killing me.

On the upside, got a $25 4foot light at home depot for $10, plus bulbs... to put up in my friends terribly lit shed.
Now I need a light to put over his worktable, and I'll be all set for lights!


My plan thus far:
Tomorrow night: Pull carbs.
Attempt to remove fuel bowls without damaging gasket, if not I will get some make-a-gasket lol.
I will clean what I can in there, specifically the pilot and enrichment circuits. If they seem to flow well, I will reinstall the bowls, remove what is necessary to do a clunk test, bench sync the butterflies, then rig something up to test my float levels.
If all checks out, I will soak my carb boots in warm water, dry them and armorall them. Get them back on, and see what happens.
Think I can swing all that in about 3 hours?
If I stay focused?

 

That would be a resounding "NO!" 8O

You might be able to, but then you'll be taking them off again when things still aren't performing correctly. RUSHING is the best way to create more problems, expense, time, and effort for yourself, because it forces you to take shortcuts, or to "pretend" you understand things that you don't, and thus make mistakes or overlook certain things.


The Ciffnotes version of The Everyman's Guide to the Zen of Carbs says that the time it takes to PROPERLY do the carbs is whatever time it takes to do it properly. Use that as your guide and timetable.......


"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

 

I thought that gasket stuff would get you to pop in here. haha

I understand I will take them off if they don't run right, that's a big obvious.

But my point here is to TRY to get it running right. If I do this, and it runs great... why go further?

ONE TIME taking them off and putting them on is not going to kill me if it doesn't work...

I sense Len is trying to get me to buy carb parts... O_O

 

Oh contraire, mon-frere'!


Just removing and re-installing the carbs on the bike are going to take you a good 60-90 minutes (or more), especially if this is your first Carb Rodeo.

Tearing down and inspecting the bowls, the starter jet passages, removing and cleaning the fuel jets and the pilot fuel passage, taking the top end off of the carb and inspecting/performing a clunk test, and then re-assembly and bench synch/float level check and adjustment (oh the horror, the Horror that is!) is going to take you WAY over 3 hours to do correctly.

Unless you are Superman, in which case I salute you (which I do anyway, even if you aren't........).

Notice I didn't mention replacing any parts, at all! (I'm slipping, I know, shame on me).

Otherwise, your desire to set yourself a 3-hour deadline to "git 'er dun" is possibly/probably/almost guaranteed to lead to mucho problemos, senor.......that's all I was saying!

 

Len's right (I just read your latest posts) 3 hours is a bit optimistic. I yanked the leaky rack off my '81 around 6:00 this evening, I'm not replacing anything (just tightening up a loose float bowl+"spring cleaning") it's now 9:17 and the rack is still on the workbench. And this ISN'T my first rodeo.

Remember what I said earlier about time vs. $$$. Saving money on this will take longer than throwing $170 worth of parts at it.

Len is also very correct about one other point: NO "form-a-gasket" on the float bowl gaskets that's asking for trouble.

You can't rush this no matter how you approach it. Slow down, take your time; it WILL take longer than anticipated, it always does. The more relaxed you are about it the less likely you will be to miss simple things.

Be careful not to trap the throttle quadrant under the fins when you put the rack back on, and don't mix up the throttle and choke cables.

 

I will gladly take time over money right now.

So I will do what I can tomorrow night, and finish up Saturday AM and hopefully get it running...

 

Now, you can cut out your own bowl gaskets out of gasket paper that's sold in auto parts stores. I've seen me do it

I buy the dense rubberized cardboard Fel-Pro material from Advance Auto... It's jut a few bucks and will make plenty of gaskets if you have a steady hand, a sharp razor, and some patience (or Ritalin..)

It helps to have one of those pen-size knives with replaceable blades. They seem to work quite well. Also, cut a bit on the fat side and trim as necessary.

These gaskets last maybe two removal/installation cycles... That raised ridge on the carb bodies has a tendency to cut through the gasket material after a while.

 

Fitz is giving you very soild advise.
I learned my lesson along time ago with these tempermental carbs. They have to be perfect or the bike just won't run right. Surgical clean, Gaskets and O-rings in place and not sucking air from where its not supposed to. Hope it works out for you.

 

3 hours was merely a question, whether you thought I could do it or not.
I am not going to RUSH it, I just prefer I can get as much done, as fast as possible, due to my very short time available every week.

Len - I did not mean to come off like that, I just can't afford to keep dropping money into this, so I need to replace ONLY what I HAVE to replace. Not drop $170 like previously stated by someone, which is in no way acceptable in my book for replacement 'orings and a gasket' and such.

So what I will do tomorrow is remove the rack, pop the bowls, do what I can with carb cleaner only, do the same up top, and then try a clunk test and maybe even a fuel float check. If all goes well and it's not midnight yet, I will drop em in and try to fire it.

It's not my first 'rodeo' with carbs, I DID pull the SECA carbs once... not fun. And they were terrible... didn't break them -and that right there is a bike that needs a broken rack. That thing was neglected, chopped up, and destroyed.
The Maxim on the other hand was a weekly rider, and other than getting it tuned improperly by a idiot mechanic, it has been very well taken care of.
20k miles and 1 bad shim... that's not bad. And it wasn't way out of spec either.


Stereo- thanks for the reminder. I do believe you can also use ... is it manilla folders?

 

Oh by the way I swung by Autozone and got new vacuum caps.
$1.99 for a huge pack of multiple sizes. Going with the blue ones.
Much thinner materical, but will be a MUCH tighter fit on there.
I think that's part of my problem, I think the vac ports are getting slight leaks in there.

 

Hey D, no harm, no foul!

I didn't take it as anything more than what you meant it to be, a friendly poke in the cylinder-fins......

Just be aware that many of us "old-timers" around here run into your story and experience quite often, and since we want to see you complete your project successfully, that's why we advise (sometimes, in the most stringent of manners and methods) that you sometimes step back, take a deep toke (of fresh air, of course), and examine both your EMOTIONS and then your PLANS/METHODS when you are trying to tackle a project.

A few nights ago you were wanting to set the bike on fire, chain saw it into little pieces, etc., and I understand your feelings, frustrations, and situation that leads you to such sentiments. And when you're in a rush and pissed-off at the bike, that's when "mistakes" are most likely to occur.

We're just trying to step in your way and prevent/persuade you to make sure that the most important tool available to you.....your brain....is fully lubed, tuned, and ready to think clearly before your get out the screwdrivers or box-end wrenches.

That's why I sorta semi-plead with people to always try to do things properly the first time around....it saves everyone a lot more time and effort and $$ in the long run. And although my definition of "properly" may differ (slightly) than other people's, I would rather err on the side of being super-anally-retentive and get people to go 110% in their efforts, rather than advise someone to do a 75% effort, in the hopes that "sometimes that's all it needs", and then have them come back later and say "well, you told me all I needed to do is this-and-that, and things would be okay!" and then they discover that things are still NOT okay.


Here, this may bear repeating. It applies to everything in life, but especially to XJ carbs and bikes, and it's the very first few paragraphs of the "Church of Clean" article that I wrote a while back:

CARB REBUILDING TRICKS:


Introduction:


NOTE1: unfortunately, the title above is somewhat mis-leading, for there are no real "tricks" to rebuilding these carb sets correctly.......just having the proper knowledge, the proper tools, and the organizational skills, persistance, and a dedication and determination to doing the job right! These things aren't magic. They aren't due to luck. Having your carbs perform properly is not akin to winning the lottery, i.e. some people get lucky and others don't and that's just life.

If you dig deep, if you could stand over the shoulder of those who are successful and those who aren't, the ways in which success is determined are pretty clear-cut and straight-forward, as outlined further below.

As are, unfortunately, the ways in which a lack of success are achieved.

This guide aims to help you achieve the former.

 

I spent one entire Saturday cleaning my carbs. That's right. One entire day.
It was sunny outside and I did the cleaning on my deck. I fired up the crock pot full of lemon juice and once boiling I de-rusted all of the screws and misc steel parts and hats.
The next day I did the bench sync and then I put the rack on a bench and did the float check with blue windshield fluid.
The next couple of evenings I built the carb sync bottles that are pictured in my gallery.
The following weekend I learned how to sync the carbs.

The only parts I needed were a couple of carb bowl drain screws which I robbed from my parts bike.

The only money I spent was for a crock pot, lemon juice, 2 muffin tins, 2 cans of carb spray.

 

It sounds like you went at it in a relaxed, organized manner. And succeeded. Which is the point we're all trying to make...

 

OK guys... got lots of good news, and some bad.
Will update with a full new post...

Think I will title it--- And here's dpawl31's carbs! (and mancave!)

Just need to upload the photos first.

 

I rushed my carb cleaning put it back together and had a popping at idle. Listened to these guys advise and torn them back down cleaning everything properly (two full days) put them back together did the bench sync it fired right up idled great and vac sync'd now runs great. now its on the the brakes.