help!! head problems!

ok so some of you may have read my post in the general lounge about my bike getting creamed by a minivan...if you havent, your not missing much however i did post that i had head problems afterwards.... it started with a small leak on the back right side (thought to be caused by the accident) i took it to my yamaha dealer and they said it was unlikely it was caused in the accident :? they and a few other friends told me to just retorque the head and it should be ok...done....go for a "short" ride and i mean short...and its coming from the front right side worse than it was leaving the back :cry: i pulled the plugs and they say im runnin normal if a lil' lean (pods jardine muffler...no jetkit ) in two weeks i have a run for fun so ill get to the point...

1. will runnin it lean lead to head gasket malfunction in any form?
2. is there any way to seal this head enuf to take my trip...w/o machining?
3. i'm using a beam style torque wrench (i know its the twenty first century right!) is it possible that im way off and using a clicker might set the head straight?

im parking the bike for now... i seem to have head troubles on all my vehicles, im just getting my dt400 yama enduro done wednesday so ill ride that about til the run for fun (blown gasket on that bugger too!) any help appreciated...thanks!

 

I would highly recommend the replacement of the head gasket at a minimum simply because there is only so much "crush" built into a gasket and once you've hit torque, your pretty much at that limit anyway. A beam wrench is fine for a cast iron head. These aluminum heads are way too prone to warpage for a beam type torque wrench. Spring the dough and buy an inexpensive click type (I posted my findings on the Harbor Freight cheapies previously, they are acceptable for the application). Running in a lean condition will cause damage with overheating of parts because of higher combustion temps. I wouldn't put to many (if any) miles on the bike without fixing the issue. As for your oil leak, it may be that the valve cover was pushed (I've no idea, you haven't mentioned where the impact occured or included any pics, so I'm guessing here) and some of the bolts have bent enough to allow the valve cover to shift? Hard to say without looking at the bike. I hope you are able to rectify your beasts issues and make her happy again. Your trip on this bike would be ill advised at this point, too many bad things waiting to happen. Good luck for what it's worth.

 

i dont have a service manual yet. i had the guys at B&B yamaha just write down the torque specs...he said 25lbs...is there a little more i can squeeze out of it? if anyone has the specs handy i can grab a clicker from a friend....as long as i dont hafta run to the library for a service manual til thursday...i already owe them late fees for the last manual i checked out ...hehe

 

Info would be gladly furnished if you would be so kind as to provide the year and model of your ride. Might I suggest you add it to your profile or better yet, your signature.

 

lol...yeah i thought of that last night and added it, was kinda hopin that it would show up on old posts b/c i went home and straight to bed

 

You have a J model, I would add that to your signature as well, it will help things along. Now for your head nut specs. According to the beloved Haynes manual, 23.1 foot/pounds is what your after or 3.2 Kgf/m (lightly oiled as per manual). Hope this gives you the ammo your looking for. I had one bolt on my Mazda that I pulled. The local mechanic said new head gasket, I said watch me. I retorqued the single head bolt and haven't had an issue yet. Please tell me you will check the head for warp. An impact may have done some damage and your eye might not catch all that needs to be seen. Good to hear your on your way, best of luck to you.

 

eeeeeek! i think the gasket may just be too squished, ill see when i get off work and get a better wrench on her...if the head comes off its getting resurfaced, period... i'm starting to wonder though if maybe it hasnt been heat related. say i do pop this head off... how prudent would it be to change my jets out so its not runnin so lean/overheating? could i get a thousand miles out of it? cant afford that silly lil jet kit right now!!

i know a couple of you guys are runnin 4-1's and pods w/o jet kits...
are you getting alot of highway miles on your bikes?

pls guys i know i jump all over the place with questions ill blame it on my ADD you can call it what you like...just be patient, ill improve in my posting abilities i promise

 

The bike won't work properly if you don't jet it properly. Jetting it properly is relatively cheap compared to dealing with the symptoms of an improperly jetted bike.

 

:cry: :cry: :cry:
i hate to eat crow on this one but i gotta admit my ignorance and impatience. when i re-torqued my head the first time with my ancient wrench i missed the four inner head bolts under the coils... got my new wrench today and went to work pulled all of my nuts off gently, oiled them lightly (wow this is startin to sound dirty ) began to torque them downin ten pounds the first time, then up five...and when i got to fifteen i saw a nut, 8O the inner four... not an acorn, rusted down...you know that feeling right after you hit your head REAL hard on something... ya thats wht i felt, ok so then started the process of trying to remove a 17 mm nut from inside an area thats not big enuf for a 17 mm socket...long story short i got some clean nuts on the outside (acorns back in the center) and torqued her down...here i ran into controversy on how this was done...

B&B yamaha suggested this...though they were wrong bout the torque specs

9 5 1 3 7 11
12 8 4 2 6 10 ???

joe...seller of the bike (advance auto buddy) suggested this

10 6 2 3 7 11
9 5 1 4 8 12 ???

i followed joes suggestion to 23 ft. lbs with my sweet new clicker wrench
reattached everything and fired her up... sounded as good as before, maybe with a lil improvement...i was smilin then i smiled some more then i looked down 8O and theres oil welling up from the outside two head nuts on the right side :cry: i shut her off, pouted, and went to bed defeated... now when i was torquing the head down as i got to those two outside bolts what id torqued down to 20 was clickin my wrench at 23, i thought o great its warped...any thoughts?

can i check my head for warpage with just a straight edge? or should i go to a machine shop?
any idea what the limits are for planing that head...how much can i take off if i need to?

 

The two head studs on the right side reside inside the oil main for the top end, necessitating the use of copper washers to seal it. Make sure that they are there or oil leaks you will have! Torque your head bolts using a spiral pattern (your steps in 10 lb increments is an excellent idea, good on ya) starting in the center and spiraling out. Follow this same pattern exactly 'till the end and you should be ok. I would check with a machine shop on the shaving spec, there will be a difinitive minimum head thickness for the head that the shop will know about. I would not have the head shaved unless there is a condition to suggest this would need to be done. Reason being that with a shaved head comes the higher compression ratio and by extension, you will need to run higher octane fuel and adjust your carbs. Hope you don't have to go that route.

 

Yamaha's manual says to torque cylinder head nuts in two stages with the final stage to 23.1 ft-lbs. The lower nuts on the front and rear are to be torqued to 14.5 ft-lbs

The outer two right side nuts are to have copper washers under them, as Robert says! I tried to cheap out and reuse mine! Won't work, need to replace these with new ones to get a seal.

Here's a tightening sequence pic from Yamaha service manual....

 

oh no... copper washers?!?!?! im guessing those cost a little more... prolly exacting specifications, cant get them at a hardware store....

http://shop.yamaha-motorcycleparts.com/ ... fault.aspx

ya just checked a shop online, number 14 right? yuck 5$ for two washers!!!
a buddy of mine said he saved like 20 bucks on a head gasket goin to a friend of his, ive been too lazy to call him...bout time i guess...ill price it first at the yamaha shop...wish me luck!

 

on a funny note....i got two opinions on torquing today from a husband and wife (fellow riders from columbus, ne) and one said criss cross was best, the other said spiral...i got online tonight robert says spiral, nick says criss cross (with backup from a service manual)... hmmmmm i smell a poll comin on!! any more opinions?

 

Use the cross, it is the recommended process, I was in error (mental laps). You can reuse your coppers if you resurface them flat with fine sandpaper. I put 600 grit on a sheet of glass and, using my index finger, gently swirl the washer in small circles on both sides. I've been successful twice now so I'm reasonably sure you can too. Go get 'um!

 

Something as important as a head gasket would be better off with original Yamaha, or at least name brand aftermarket maker. Some web sellers use an Asian assembly plant to supply generic parts at the lowest cost that may not hold up well. Also, I've seen some cheap web retailers have zero support for the stuff they sell.

If it's a job you don't mind doing twice, go lowest cost possible. But if you only want to do the job once, make sure you know the exact part you want from a supplier works well for others doing the same job.

These bikes twist close to 10 grand, so while a generic part might work well at 5000 RPM redlines of some bikes, same might not hold up to the stock RPM's the XJ's can produce.

 

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/YamahaSe ... ceData.gif

Theres a link to some specs. For conversions find this nifty program called Convert

Seems like the gasket is dead... Time to replace it...

I rebuilt the top end on mine. THe biggest problem I had was the problem I created by removing some of the ignition system on the crank... The next issue was gettign the four pistons back in the jug...lol

But I did it, and the bike runs too!

http://stores.ebay.com/MrsSuperdeals_Ga ... idZ2QQtZkm

I bought a gasket set off him some time ago, a full one at it. Cost me under $40 shipped. I have no complaints!

 

I used MRSuperdeals many times with great deals. He was the fellow who hooked me up for all those gasket kits. Dude, you saved up for the head gasket yet?

 

i actually just sent away for it saturday, so i should have it by thursday at the latest....i spent a little more and just ordered it thru my local yamaha shop (B&B). wish i woulda known i could resurface those copper washers sooner! i just did that trick with my enduro head so i have the paper..haha...spent five bucks on the pair of washers...oh well, ya live ya learn... should be able to go on my trip this weekend, but cant afford to synch up my carbs so im still kinda leary in case thats why the head blew... ill tune as best as i can w/o all the gear and see what happens...thanks for the links ryan, the thing is this bike has only 1000miles on a new gasket set, and like 9000 on the bike...i was told this is a 20000 mile motor so this is kinda worrying me...wish me luck guys ill keep ya posted

mike

P.S. it cost 70 bucks for the one gasket and my two copper washers robert, i havent sold any vital organs yet, but am considering an auction ...maybe a fundraiser :lol:

 

getting my head gasket in today. b/c of lost time fixing the car, spending time w/the old lady i havent had time to pull the head, or go to the library to get a service manual... never pulled the head off a bike this big.... should i expect large problems? the cam chain and getting my timing correct worries me... ill follow the service manuals suggestions lemme know if theres something to really worry about in the next six hours...otherwise in the next ten hours expect me to be here :cry: or :lol: and giving you another one of my rambling accounts of whats come to pass...

thanks guys!!!

 

One thing not covered in the manual but slows some up is the cam sprocket removal. The camshaft cap on the right side of the sprocket is not a "camshaft" cap. It doesn't hold the camshaft in place but holds the sprocket in check. So remove that and the bolts are much easier to get to. Then when replacing the camchain bolt the camshafts in place then slip the sprockets and chain in place. There isn't enough slack without the camshafts in place.

 

i think im sol guys...couldnt get a manual...run for fun is tommorrow...think im just gonna order me one up (was gonna) and fix it after my trip... ...can anyone here talk me thru the whole deal, minus exhaust and carbs...i just remove the gears right? just the chain? the camshafts?!?!? 8O i dont want to screw up my timing...maybe i need ta wait for a manual...anyone? ill be here for a couple hours...

 

Copper washers can be re-used if you re-anneal them. Put them on a cinder block or concrete floor, heat them red hot with a propane torch, and let them cool. Apparently the molecules re-align or something.
Jim

 

I would suggest you become familiar with the alignment of the main shaft so if it does shift, you know where to turn it back to. I would align your crank and the cams before you remove anything and strike alignment lines on the cam gears and cam. I scratched small arrows into mine showing the orientation of the cam and gears when the crank was settled on TDC. Annealing you say? Humm... I'll have to try that.

 

thanks guys... i know how crucial this is, not sure if i have marks on my flywheel or if i'd need a piston stop to find top dead center...and dont know which cylinder is number one... :lol: soooooooo, im ordering my manual today hopefully theyll have it when i get back from the run on tuesday... ill keep ya posted

 

Cylinder #1 is the one farthest left sitting on the bike. Pull the left hand cover off of the crank, pull the spark plugs, drop a smooth shafted long screwdriver down #1, hold it in your hand so it doesn't get cocked in the bore, and slowly turn the motor over using a 19mm open end wrench counter-clockwise until you feel maximum elevation of the screwdriver and the "T" on the breaker plate lines up with the pointer. Hope this gets you started.

 

Ok Im lost now, what is it your trying to do. Lets make a list!

A word of advice, dont take the pointer for TDC off! lol

i would just use a paint parker on clean gear and cam to mark which holes the screws go in...

Just beware, that pesky timing chain LOVES to drop down into the motor abysis and its sometimes hard to get back up...

Umm there are timing marks where the cams should end up. They should like up with the arrows on the caps...

Umm check your valve/cam clearance also while your in there. Make sure to number them bad boys before taking them out. I didnt and I had one HELL of a nightmare...

 

well guys... for now ill say thanks and shes running good! i'll document my troubles/successes in picture form here in a couple days (flash camera) i got everything back on smoothly, did everything right...save for a "couple" dumbass attacks, and then....this is where the story gets scary...i notice that one of the studs on the right in the oil main was loose...like four turns, i tightened it as good as i could by hand, couldnt double nut it b/c theres not enough stud sticking out, finally i grabbed a pair of pliars and a shop towel...this is really bugging me guys, any suggestions? ive thought about using a smaller acorn nut....teflon tape on the threads....isnt it supposed to have loctite or something on there?...ok i'll shut up..:lol:

thanks
mike

 

Good question! Never encountered that one on these bikes. Regular occurance on VW's. I would be tempted to run a drop of loctite 242 (blue) on it and run it back home after you've cleaned out the hole.

 

heres some pics of my recent head change...thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and injuhneer...my bike wouldnt be runnin w/o you guys!!!

 

one quick last thing...my work conditions...there was so much cotton in the air that if i set a socket down for 1 minute it was completely coated...didnt help that it was windy too :lol:

 

Question: Do you notice if the motor runs hotter with the paint on it? The paint will act as an insulator, making the engine run hotter. But how much is the question?

Also - a darker color paint will help it radiate heat. So purple is better than silver in that respect.

If it is running significantly hotter, then that could be the reason for head problems.

 

i was wonderin that....what i found where it was leaking was a loose stud...anysugestions on tightenin it with the head on?

the only air cooled engines ive run have been two-strokes...this is a whole new world to me

 

I thought you did tighten it with no results? Maybe I am thinking of someone else.

Couldn't hurt to try! I wouldn't go much past the recommended torque though. I have learned my lesson on aluminum. It is very sensitive!

 

i tightened it the best i could with a shop towel and pliers :? i was hoping to do a better job....took it on a four hour ride the other day... not in a row....and its still at torque so i think im happy

 

Here we are 8 years later with the same damn prob... Leaking from #4 cylinder outside bolts through the head gasket, and now I cant remember if i replaced the two oil gallery seals!?... And past me is of zero damn help... thanks stupid past me

 

The only way that past-you can help present-you is if present-you starts a maintenance log and remembers to write everything down. Redoing work happens; it's not fun, but you can handle it.

 

Bah... present mike isn't even sure he likes future mike... You guys are my maintenance lo. That being said, the seals look bad and they're hard, also, one of my dowels is cockeyed what do you guys think of that? Should I file it down?

 

Get new seals and a new dowel from xj4ever............

dave

 

I don't want you to be right about this means less time riding, or more in the long run I guess... I already have the seals, just that one dowel is not pretty

 

The dowel is no longer available from Yamaha, and I didn't see it listed in XJ4evers parts list

 

The dowel is no longer available from Yamaha, and I didn't see it listed in XJ4evers parts list

 

The dowel is no longer available from Yamaha, and I didn't see it listed in XJ4evers parts list

 

The xj4ever list is not exhaustive. He has more stuff not listed there

 

The dowel is no longer available from Yamaha, and I didn't see it listed in XJ4evers parts list

 

.? Yes we get that. I'm suggesting that you email xj4ever because NOT ALL his items are listed on his pages.

 

Holy crap.... my phone had a seizure! Sorry Adrian and thank you bike is repaired. I didn'trealize (due to one of them being hammered into an unrecognizable lump) that all four dowels were the same... Two were still good

No leaks after 1000+ miles of commuting, here's to hoping it was just the seals