if only she would start...

So I bought an 85 xj700 maxim a few of months ago and up until recently it's been a fantastic bike. Once it's up and running there are no problems, but I've had some issues getting her started. It's been a little difficult (but not impossible) to start in the cold because I'm pretty limited on how much choke I can use. If I put the choke all of the way on it will idle rough but steady. However, if I try to roll on any throttle the rpms steadily drop until it dies. If I try half or quartet choke the engine won't fire up at all. With no choke I can normally get it started after several tries, (depending on how cold it is) and after a minute or two of keeping engine around 1500 rpms it idles just fine and runs with no problem. After reading several forum posts, I gather that this is likely the enrichment circuit.


However, a different and more pressing problem came up last week.

It seems like the battery's dead, but I know it's not. This battery is only a couple of weeks old, but since the starter just sluggishly clunked a couple of times, the first thing I did was check the voltage with my analog meter. I was reading about 12.5 volts, but just to be sure I took it to the local auto parts store to see what their fancy digital meter said. 12.53. When I hit the start button, I can hear the solenoid click but that's it. I also tried testing the voltage as I hit the start button and there was no change. Headlights etc. work just fine. I can roll start pretty easily, but that's no way to impress the ladies. :wink:

I'm not much of a mechanic, but I'm willing to see what I can do. (not to mention that when I got new tires for it, the mechanic told me he wouldn't work on it because it would be too difficult to find parts) I still need to order a service manual, but I was hoping to at least test a few things while its in the mail. Here's a pic of the whole area under the seat.



The clicking that I hear seems to be coming directly from the bit in the green circle, and I'm guessing that's the solenoid. I tested the voltage at the positive and negative points on the solenoid as well. when the key is off or on the meter reads 12.5 and when I hit the starter it reads 0. Voltage directly from the battery terminals reads 12.5 and doesn't change when I hit the start button.

A little background that may or may not make a difference. About a month after I bought the bike, the battery died. I recharged it and it seemed to work fine. I had to get the bike inspected a while later, and they said that it wasn't quite up to par on the load test so I bought a new one. Kind of makes me wonder if there might be an issue with the charging system as well.

 

could well be a charging issue, meter at the battery when running at 2-3k it should read 14+v.
the battery at 12.5 is not fully charged, charge it overnight & clean all the terminals, battery & relay (solenoid) & make sure they are on tight.
you should have the carbs' off for a good clean & sync'.

 

no that it matters for this problem but could have an effect on idle. You are missing the snorkle peice to your airbox. there is an oval tube about 5" long the is ribbed that is suppose to go in the oval hole you have there.

what it doesn't idunno but mine has it and it is in the manual as being there.

also what kind of airfilter is in there? It look pretty dirty that will have an effect on idle and running as well.

You can check your brushes the small well maybe 4-5" round cover with three allen heads bolts. Remove the bolts and pull the cover Be careful there are wires atteched to it. They need to be 10mm long minimum.

 

Just FYI, yes, that is the solenoid

 

You may have a faulty solenoid (I had a problem with mine). Here's how you can check:

Get the bike ready to be started (in neutral, maybe a little choke, etc.), and take your biggest, ugliest screwdriver and short across the BIG terminals on the solenoid in your picture.

You'll see a bike spark, but if you hold the screwdriver on, the starter should begin to turn and if all is well, the bike will start. If something different happens, you have another problem to deal with.

If you're not seeing voltage across the big terminals on the solenoid when you hit the starter (and the solenoid is clicking, as you say), then the solenoid may have a bad connection inside. I was able to fix mine.

 

snownomo - i am in austin / round rock as well and have the same bike if you need to get another set of eyes / hands on it. it looks like you have already cleaned your contacts, so once you get your stator reading on voltage output like the wiz said you'll know what direction your going.... also yes your right about the enrichment circut i had the same issues with mine... easy to fix once you know what your doing... pm me if you need some help.

BTW. i have pretty much every concieveable tool you might need to work on this bike - and the service manuals.

 

I ran a few voltage tests and... drumroll... here are the results. (some of these may be totally necessary, but I figure it can't hurt to be thorough.)

I charged the battery overnight and let it sit for a few hours after the charge.

before turning anything on my multimeter showed 12.69v at the terminals.

Turned on the key and read 11.98v at the terminals.

Hit the start button once (just to see if it would magically start) and the starter turned once very sluggishly. After that I read 12.53v at the terminals.

Roll started the bike and let it idle for a little while. At idle I read 12.1v at the terminals.

Brought the engine up to 3000 rpms and read 13.62v at the terminals.

Turned the engine off and read 12.51v

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I'm not quite sure about what voltage is required to give a sufficient kick to the starter, but it does seem odd to me that the battery would lose 1.6v after one start attempt. Could this be a sign of a bad or dirty starter? Could the failing starter be the culprit for what I had suspected as a charging issue?

Thanks for your posts so far. I really appreciate the help.

 

Try measuring the battery's amperage when you start it. If It isn't pulling any more than what it does with the key on then you probably have a broken circuit some where. If it pulls a very heavy amperage, (I'm not sure exactly what would be a lot) then it could be bad contacts or something binding up, whether it is something in the solenoid or the starter.

Pull apart your starter, It isn't that hard and have a good look at everything. Buy a can of electrical contact cleaner (do not use WD40 it is not contact cleaner and you will start a fire) and clean stuff up in there while it's out.

Do as 85maximxx says and check to see if your starter brushes are at least 10mm long.

If you pull the starter apart look at the armature (large bundle of wires that spins in the middle.) If it has any burn marks, gashes, or looks like it has been rubbing on something then it is probably binding up. Which will draw a ton of amperage and kill your battery along with not allowing your bike to start electrically.

Once you clean everything up put the starter back together and put it back on the bike, hit the start button, and pray to the XJ gods.

 

Pygmy... forgot to mention that I did try shorting the solenoid with a big ugly screwdriver and got nothin but a little spark.

 

snownomo,
I had what sounds like the exact same problem with my 650 maxim. Turned out to be the starter. Bought a used one on ebay for $12 + shipping, starts fine now. I did completely take the 'new' one apart and clean/grease everything that needed it (i hope....).

When I took my starter apart the electrical contacts on the stator (a part that costs about $300 to buy new, BTW) were worn smooth, down to the same level as the insulation. The 'new' starter had almost a 1/8th" thickness in the same place.

 

Hm. I'd have to agree with kd5uzz. IF you're not getting anything when you short those leads, then the solenoid may be fine, but there's definitely something wrong with the starter circuit. Shorting those posts makes a dead short from the battery to the starter, so it really has to turn. If it doesn't, I'd check all the connections and then suspect the starter if you've got the right voltages in the right places and the connectors look good.

 

Just got the service manual today, so hopefully that will at least help me narrow down where to test. Does anyone have advice about where and in what I order should be testing. I should be able to figure it out now with the service manual, but if any of you have had similar problems... I guess I'll just work my way from the solenoid down to the starter motor. From your replies so far, I'm beginning to suspect that my starter motor has been on its way out for a while and it has been putting an unnecessary strain on my battery every start. (previously leading me to believe that this was an issue with the charging system)


Is it difficult to get to, remove, and disassemble the starter motor?

Do I need to watch out for anything in particular that might easily damage delicate/expensive parts in the process?

Is it difficult to just replace the brushes (and possibly plate set), or should I look into buying a new/new-to-me starter motor?

 

Simple, two bolt removal of the starter. Once pulled you could take it to an auto parts store and have them test it. Or simply connect it to a battery charger and see if it spins. If it does, be careful, it will want to fly around.

Very simple to change the brushes also. If it doesn't spin, try to figure out why before you buy parts. They are so simple it almost has to be brushes or the stator.

 

if it does spin which for some reason i have a suspision it will. but we dont know how many kms it has. may make a difference. even if the wire taht goes from the startor to the selanoid looks alright (check for wear or splises) if my have eroded on the inside. sometimes wires can get condicention in them and rote away at the copper inside. if you have some old (car) amplifier wire laying around or anything around 6-8 gauge try connecting onside to the power and the other to the startor if it turns then replace the wire. if no then check your internals of the stator there probably some dirt.

 

The minimum brush length for the starter is 8.5mm. If yours are shorter, the starter is probably drawing too much current.

I recently took mine apart to clean-up everything and found that I have 1mm left. If you are going to pull the starter apart, go to the auto parts store and get a can or two of electrical cleaner. Hose everything down good and get it cleaned up.

While you are at it, pull off the stator cover and measure those brushes too and clean it up as well.

There is definitely something up with that system. When running, you should be outputting 14.2 to 14.8v to the battery. The service manual has some very good troubleshooting diagrams.

 

So I finally narrowed the problem down to the starter motor. I removed it and took it to a local bike mechanic. (this is the same guy who said he wouldn't normally work on it because he said it would be too difficult to find parts btw) He was nice enough to test it for me for free and said that it was nearly seized up. We took it apart and he decided that the issue was with the stator. Since a new stator seems to cost about as much as a whole new starter, I opted to take kd5uzz's approach and picked up a good condition used starter motor on ebay. (came off of an '85 xj700 with around 5500 miles) It just came in the mail today and I'll install it tomorrow.

Is there anything I need to know before installing the new starter? I couldn't believe how easy it was to remove the old one, but I want to make sure I take care of any maintainence while I have it off. Should I regrease/clean anything before I put the new one on? Any seals/gaskets I should replace while I'm in there? Any tricks to make sure that I lock everything into place without damaging anything else?

 

Well I got things worked out with the starter and I didn't want to leave this topic a cliffhanger. I got the "new" starter in the mail a few days ago, opened it and cleaned things up a bit. (though it wasn't very dirty at all compared to my old starter motor) Everything in the new one seemed to be in good shape, so I installed it. I couldn't believe the difference. It didn't sound like the starter had to put in an ounce of effort for the engine to fire up. Back on the road again!

Thanks again for all of your replies. I really appreciate your help in troubleshooting this.