Igniter box change - will it cause a problem?

I've recently experienced a problem with my XJ650 4KO Café Racer. All had been well since I got RobbieRobot Café Racer on the road in 2013 but a couple of weeks ago I had to limp home when the bike would only idle and not rev at all when the throttle was opened. This fault would come and go over the next few days and each time it re-appeared I would be sitting at traffic lights with the engine idling nicely then on green, throttle open and no change except for a slight stuttering. I suspected a carb problem, so I set about re-setting the valve clearances then, on a day when the bike ran fine, I removed the rack cleaned out the (still very clean) carbs ensuring they passed the ‘clunk test’ then vacuum synced the carbs and colour tuned the mixtures just as I had done originally. I thought I had solved the problem but a mile from home at a set of traffic lights the problem re-appeared. Twist the throttle – no change to the revs just strangulation. I rode back home at speeds up to 15 mph in third gear on idle. I then changed the plugs for new ones. The bike started up ok, off down the road and at the first set of traffic lights – no revs from idle. Back home at 15mph. On the drive the bike would start and rev but as soon as the revs returned to idle turning the throttle produced nothing. It seemed to be repeating the problem every time now. Then, after a few more attempts it would only start up and idle but not rev at all. I charged the battery overnight and today I cleaned out the tank, re-filled with fresh petrol and …exactly the same problem.

THEN. I decided to try a spare igniter box.

Halleluiah, faultless revving. Re-connected the old igniter box, fault returned. Re-connected the ‘new’ igniter box, no fault. Repeat, repeat. I then road tested the bike to be rewarded with a wonderfully sweet idling and revving motor, seemingly better than ever.

My question now is, given that the igniter box that I removed is Type TID14-02 4H7-10 and the replacement is Type TID14-06 5G2-10 am I likely to encounter any problems? Advice appreciated.

 

The timing curve is different. You'll most likely notice a change in fuel milage, and maybe a difference in the powerband. No harm will be done to the engine, but you might encounter some minor drivability issues.
Your replacement TCI is from a 750.

 

The replacement TCI is actually from a 1982 model XJ650 4K0 but it may also be compatible with a 750.

 

The 4H7 boxes are for non-YICS engines, the 5G2 for yics-equipped bikes (650 and 750cc), the curves are pretty much the same, the main difference is the lack of a sidestand position defeat terminal on the 4H7 boxes (those earlier models didn't have the full complement of "safety" features that the later bikes did).



HCP413
OEM TCI Ignitor Unit 4H7-82305-10-00
small black label lettered:
TYPE TID14-02
4H7-10 (date code)
4 + 4 terminals
Advance curve:
10* at 1050 rpms
12* at 1800 +/- 200 rpms
35.5* at 4100 +/- 400 rpms
37.5* +/- 2* at 5000 rpms

Applications:
80-1 XJ650 Maxim, Midnight Maxim, Euro (non-yics)



HCP414
OEM TCI Ignitor Unit 5G2-82305-10-00
small red label lettered:
TYPE TID14-06
5G2-10 (date code)
4 + 5 terminals
Advance curve:
XJ650 Maxim (factory manual):
7* +/- 1* at 1050 rpm
9* at 1600 +/- 200 rpms
35.5* at 3300 +/- 300 rpms
37.5* +/- 2* at 4000+ rpms

XJ750 Seca (factory manual):
7* at 1050 rpm
12* at 1800 +/- 200 rpms
35.5* at 4100 +/- 400 rpms
37.5* +/- 2* at 5000+ rpms

Applications:
XJ650 Police
82-4 XJ650 Maxim/Euro (yics)
81-3 XJ750 all
XJ750 Police

 

The three degrees of difference in advance are noticeable. I recall that there are old threads about an off-idle stumble when using a non YICS TCI on a YICS engine.

 

But Robbie reports.. 'a wonderfully sweet idling and revving motor, seemingly better than ever.' so no worries eh?

 

Thanks chacal and k-moe.

I am still in need of some advice.
I sent Igniter TID14-02 4H7-10 away to Carmo electronics in the Netherlands via a UK agent. It was returned to me at a total cost of 86 GBP (115 dollars) with a card attached which simply read "CDI not defective".
When I tried it back on the bike it clearly was still displaying the problem as described in my initial post so I sent Carmo a link to a video taken on my cellphone to illustrate my problem - this link in fact; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToNWwk6hqbw
This was Carmo's reply;
///////////////////////////////////////////////
On viewing your video again, I noticed two things:

The first is that the bottom left (as seen in your video) wire seems loose. This is a side stand security, which the TID14-02 does not have, but the TID14-06 does have. On that unit, it works like a kill switch, removing the outputs to the ignition coil when connected to ground. Could you perhaps check if this is wired correctly?

The second is that there is no wire on the bottom right of the larger of the two connectors. According to the manuals we have here, there should be one, the ground for one of the two pick-up coils. Did you change this in the wiring? Or again, could you check if this is wired correctly?

If it isn’t one of these things, then I can only conclude that there is a problem with the ignition timing, specifically the spark advance. Which is unusual, as we test this and it looked normal in you unit.

Again, if that is the case, it’s not something we can repair, but we can make a replacer unit like the one in the following link.

https://www.carmo.nl/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=493_4686_2129_2558&products_id=2595

If you choose to take this route, I think it’s wisest to do so through Carmo UK.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I had already explained some history behind the problem in the form of this email;

Thanks for taking an interest in my problem.
I can confirm the engine fitted to my 1982 XJ650 is from a bike registered in September 1980. Engine No 4K03003 (Non YICS). The igniter Type TID14-02 4H7-10 is the unit that came with this engine.
Igniter Type TID14-06 5G2-10 is from the original engine (which had a catastrophic failure) and was first registered in October 1982. Engine No 4K0061601 (YICS). I used this to see if it would work once the above arrangement failed. The above arrangement covered well over 5000 miles of trouble free riding.
As you can imagine, I would rather run the bike with the correct Igniter (TID14-02 4H7-10) for the engine hence the reason for sending it for repair to Carmo.

Do you, chacal and k-moe, think the Igniter sent back to me is faulty? I don't believe I am getting value for money from Carmo.
Any observations would be welcomed.

 

I ordered another Igniter TID14-02 4H7-10 from Germany on eBay. It arrived yesterday so I tested it on my bike and it worked perfectly. As far as I am concerned this provides conclusive proof that the unit tested by Carmo Electronics in the Netherlands is faulty. I paid them 115 dollars for test results that were 100 per cent wrong. I've also ordered another Igniter from the U.S. on eBay. The total cost including delivery, of both units ordered from eBay is less than Carmo Electronics charged me for incorrect information. I am going to ask Carmo Electronics for a refund.

 

OK chacal and k-moe, can you give me a bit of advice regarding TCI's?
I bought a spare TCI from the States supposedly from a XJ1100 which should have been a 10M, when it arrived it was from a 650 Turbo which is a 16G. Though it does work I haven't taken the bike out on the road yet to use it properly in case of damage to the engine.
Do you think it will be ok to use? The seller assured me that the unit came off a running XJ1100 but refunded my money and told me to keep the item, which was good of him.

 

Not sure, but I would doubt it. The turbo models had a lot of fancy "things" to prevent detonation, etc. (including ultra-low compression ratio) and the TCI advance curve is way too conservative for a normally-aspirated engine.

 

+1
I'd either buy a 650 turbo, or sell the TCI.

 

OK, thanks.