Let's talk top end's.

And I am back ladies and gentlemen.

'82 xj650j, 20100 miles on the ticker. 90psi dry 140psi wet holds steady across the board. We know what this means.

It's time for a topend! Rings, base gasket, head gasket, orings top and bottom, and valve guides/seals/shims.

Problem is the OEM parts are EXPENSIVE.

What are the options for aftermarket parts. eg. does cometic make gasket sets? does wiseco make ring sets? etc. third party vendors?

Let me hear what you guys and gals have to say. Parts, tips, procedures. anything you can say I want to hear. 8)

 

Have I been too forward?

 

I'm not sure about gaskets, other than what Len sells, but Wiseco used to make pistons and rings. They don't list them in their catalog anymore, but they have (or used to have, been a long time since I last inquired) a longstanding policy of making pistons and rings to order (at additional cost of course).

 

I have seen big bore sets on the bay for less than two bills.

 

There are parts out there from multiple suppliers. You have to search around to find the right price and part, but it can be done. I would start with XJ4Ever to see what he has and prices since you know it will be right. But you can also try out other options like cheapbay or..

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorc ... #sch225310

You may not need valve guides with that low of mileage, but you'll have to measure tolerance when you get in there. Look at the plus side when your done it will run like new! Maybe better.

 

20,000 miles? Just running in! Presume you mean its over the clock for the second time!

 

The problem with big bore kits is the extra stress on an old crank shaft.

 

Lack of information here. (Has it been standing still for 15 years? have you pulled it out of a lake?)
If it's only got 20100 miles on the clock - try to drive 500 miles and see what the compression is then.
100000 miles should be no problem for these engines.

 

+1 on pirok's stuck ring theory, if not the trying to ride it out plan...

If the mileage is correct and the bike's been standing a lot then the piston rings could well just be stuck, causing your low compression numbers. Or the valves could be hellish tight but I'd doubt that as the numers are even.

Before tearing the engine apart when it may not be worn, I'd personally use a good fogging oil & let it sit in the cylinders for a few days, occasionaly turning the motor & replacing it.

During this time I'd be checking and setting the valve clearances and cleaning the carbs, wet setting floats & bench syncing them so they're fit to at least start the motor up for the next step.

Then I'd replace the engine oil with cheap (but still wet clutch friendly mineral, max SG grade) oil and run the motor up to temperature then check the comps again with the engine hot, all plugs removed & TCI unplugged & throttle held open.

If you see any improvement then I'd concentrate on refurbishing the brakes, replacing tires etc to make the bike safe, syncing carbs and THEN try the ride it out method & you should see a steady improvement in compression as the miles rack up... Also change out the cheap oil for good quality mineral and new filter after around 50miles/2 hours of running, this is to flush out any crap loosened up by awakening the beast

 

You asked for opinions. So here's what I have to say...

I did a top end rebuild (1 new piston, 4 new OEM rings across the board, new gaskets, etc.) several years back on my 650 and honestly, I wouldn't do it again. The costs involved really put a burden on an early 20's aged guy like myself. Now if you're 50 or 60 years old with too much $$ to hold in your wallet, then have at it. I felt obligated to do the top end rebuild cause it was my first and only bike at the time. The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of other bikes out there in my opinion to toy around with. Do what your gut tells ya; there's plenty of help around here to help if you decide to tear it apart

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FOUR-New-Nos ... 1078wt_689

 

K-moe Im gonna get on the horn with wiseco and see what they have to say.

razz- thanks for the headsup, ill check into that but i dont think a big bore is really worth it with this bike.

mercman- I'll keep looking, I know bikebandit well. The parts are around but buying the individual OEM parts is cost prohibitive given the age and value of the bike. I'll spec it all before I buy any parts

adrian- im not sure, It does seem premature I know. Also thanks for the link.

orangenblack - I agree. No need to start hopping up an older engine like this placing additional stress on internal components

Pirok- i did suspect stuck rings it was sitting for about 10 years in a barn, I have solved this on other engines in the past with some marvel oil in the cylinders, like is stated below, seems to work better then the fogging oil, but this one has not freed up and does burn some oil! Might even be some mechanical damage causing it, won't know until I open it.

750EE29rbloke- see above, I'll try running it a bit more but I am thinking its just premature wear, I have made this determination through experience with many many engines. Also, carbs have already been through the ultrasonic with bowl gastets and needle valves replaced and fuel levels set and butterflys bench set. The engine does run. I checked over the valves too, if i recall one or too were a bit on the tight side but not anything crazy, cant remember the exact numbers, I'll wait to set them up for now. As for the brakes and tires, done and done.

Moellear- yeah i know what you mean, If I can't get costs down for parts the project will be scrapped and parted out, been there done that, gotta do it sometimes as painful as it can be.

 

No worries, it is possible that even if it isn't worn the rings may be stuck enough to not free up for some reason (just had to strip an engine for that reason, it had been "winterized" with something down the bores that gummed the rings up more and more as it ran, might've burnt off after a while but the guy broke the bike & I bought the motor as a spare)

I don't know how many miles you have put on it so far, but if it doesn't improve in 500 miles or so then you're probably right to be stripping it. If you do & the pistons/bores turn out OK, Wiseco do rings by size & that may be an option if you can't find a set for the specific bike.

I'll try and drag up the chart I used to "build" a set of correct sized rings for an old Suzuki before now (lists all different ring thicknesses/profiles/materials and bore sizes, find the set that matches the originals)

I had to use the old oil ring expanders when I "built" a set, as the set with correct top & middle rings had a thicker expander for the oil ring, the new oil scrapers were right though. That was probably a one off though as there's plenty of options.

EDIT-: here it is, click "additional accessories" on the right of the page & open the PDF file, scroll down past sleeves & 2t and you get the list of 4 stroke ring sets... http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Motorcycle.aspx Think they start on page 5 of the PDF

 

Have you checked the valve clearance yet?

 

20,000 not that many miles have you checked the valve clearances yet? and if by chance they check good then the best thing to do is look for another motor much cheaper than all those parts and machine work

 

diggin that avatar

 

Waldo,

I'd recommend getting the valves properly in spec first off, since you'll at least have a known good head & cams then. If it does end up having to be stripped in the end and it turns out the bores & pistons are OK, it'd be quite cheap to get a set of rings from Wiseco (most expensive set would work out at $240, most would work out around half that).

 

Low mileage engines are 100-200$

Look around.

That's what I would do in an economical sense.

If you're doing it as a fun project, by all means go for it!

 

Buy a used engine, rebuild the original for fun. Then you will have a spare.

 

Forgot how cheap motorcycle bits are over there, $1-200 you'd be lucky to get an old smoker engine that price over here!

 

You mentioned its using oil as well as low compression. You are going to have to pull the barrels off. There's no other way to sort it.

 

Stuck oil ring's gonna cause as much if not more smoke than worn oil rings surely?

 

With the compression numbers as even as they are and holding as well as they do I am not suspecting valves, i went over them with a "go-nogo"fashion as i usually do just to see where there at and go by feel just to see if any are "problems". They were all pretty much well off accept for a couple snug ones but not problematically so. If I open the motor the jugs will definitely come off for atleast a hone and the valves will at a minimum get lapped and set.

Starting to think maybe just stuck rings but it seems unlikely that it will be even across the 4. It does burn some oil but it's not horrific, for me it feels like an experience call and i know it's low miles but the symptoms just scream worn top end. I would just open it up to see where its at but then I'll need at a minimum gaskets so im doing some research first and what not.

I'll keep an eye out for a replacement engine, maybe put an 1100 engine in.

 

Only reason I suggested setting valves was to do with if you were going to run it a lot, since any tight valves would be at risk. But that said if your experience is saying engine wear you could well be right, just hate the thought of someone pulling the jugs to find bores full of factory cross-hatching & gummy rings lol

Just a thought, do you know anyone with a bore scope? could be interesting/useful to pull the plugs and have a scan of the bores to see what she's like without decapitating the motor... Good excuse to buy one even, saves a gasket set if the engine's good & you'll get the value out of it if the engine's FUBAR since you could use it to check any potential replacement 1100 motor internally as well :wink:

 

Real good call on the boroscope i dont have one but I'll look around and see if any friends do, I might just grab one, with my tool collecting habits it's the kind of thing I should probably have. As for the valves I don't think they were out of spec even just snug, im not worried about burning them up.

wanted to add too, my experience is also telling me this motor was run fast and hard by whoever had it before me, valves defintely seem to have been adjusted before but I dont think the head and jugs have been off.

 

Same here with the tool collecting, that's what made me suggest it when I thought of it (should have done sooner but there ya go lol), any excuse to add another useful tool to the kit. I just picked up a brake cylinder hone as it's the only thing small enough to get near the bores of my spare NC motor!

What's telling you that, blue brake discs, squared off tires, stonechips on front end?

 

Gotta love tools! hah, I'm running out of room. This might be a dumb question but what's an NC motor? Nitrocar?

And the big things that make me think it was run hard (and I don't mean abused more like raced), valves seemed to have been lovingly cared for being more or less in adjustment at 20k but it seems like atleast the rings are worn out at that mileage. come to think of it, that might be why it was put away in the first place.

 

lol the only dumb questions are the ones not asked until the damage is done Honda NC27, kinda screams like a nitro motor though

 

lol the only dumb questions are the ones not asked until damage gets done Honda NC27, kinda screams like a nitro motor though. 400cc 4cyl, 13,000rpm redline (pulls to 13750 though!) It has 55mm bores & I didn't have any hone that would go down to that size yet...

 

ah nice! looks like a sporty little bike. I knew I had to be missing something!

 

maxim677 1100 sounds like the best idea

 

We'll see, If it doesnt turn out to be rings sticking I'll open it up and do atleast rings (see link above, 50 for a set. But I'll have to look at the guides too and see whats really going on.

I hear the 1100 isnt the easiest fit in the 650 frame but I'm not afraid of the torch!

 

of course there will be steering problems with the 1100 that need to be adressed

 

I don't worry too much, steering geometry would remain the same. I have been keeping an eye out for an xs1100 owner in my area so I can take some measurements. and see where it might be an issue.

I really want to build a turbo bike next

 

It's not the geometry it's the lack of tire contact with the road

 

hahahahaha 8O

 

There's a cure for that you know, it's called self control! :lol:

 

Whats that?

 

I don't really know, a girl I knew just told me about it once

 

Very cheap boroscope

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mini-USB-Wat ... 3329wt_994

 

'tis VERY cheap 8O Not a bad tip size either at 10mm, a lot of cheaper ones are 14mm+ and won't fit in a plug hole!

Wonder what sort of resolution you'd get with it? A lot of the cheaper ones have a very grainy picture because they're trying to get too much out of low light levels and overworked cheap sensors, got to be worth a punt at that price though and if it's crap just use it as a torch instead lol.

A good thing to have with a borescope too if you can get them is the add-on tips that "bend" the field of view 45/90/130 degrees, make it easier to look for wear lips & damage to the upper part of the bore and valves...

 

That is very! cheap. Too cheap if you ask me, I worry about the grainy picture.

Etoolcart.com I have bought alot of tools from these guys. Here's one I was looking at, I consider this to be on the cheaper end of the spectrum, 179.99. It's something that would see a fair bit of use so I look for best bang for the buck, i think this one is really pretty good for the price

http://www.etoolcart.com/max-video-2-4- ... 08-55.aspx

I have another Autel Tool an MD802 scantool. It has served me very well.

 

That doesn't look bad for the money, specially with a built in screen. It has still picture save & could record video on a pc too.

That said, I reckon the ones without their own screen tend to give more functionality for the money for obvious reasons (and I prefer using an old laptop to view anyhow as the screen's larger) I have an old windows XP lump that cost nothing for use on stuff like that & workshop 'net reference etc.

I didn't see if there's any "round a corner" fittings available for it either, as I say they're very useful. Still a good price for one with inbuilt screen and still pics function though. Wonder if there's anywhere near you that would let you assess the picture quality before buying?

EDIT-: I'll try and search out a 'car mechanics' magazine from earlier this year that had a review of them & see if this one was in the lineup

EDIT2-: That Autel unit wasn't featured (probably not available over here) but the ones that were didn't seem to have the video/stills feature for that sort of money, if the image quality's good then I'd say go for it.

The only similar priced one out of the test lot that'd be worth a look IMO is the "Access-Cameras Pro-Tech" and that was apparently very good in all areas except for the LED lights being a bit weak. that was £125 so around $200-250ish I think. Seems you get better of everything over there lol

 

is this the one?

http://www.toolpart.toolss.net/access-c ... on-camera/

17mm cam diameter they say. 200-250 over there really?

I see a striking similarity here. 90usd

http://www.etoolcart.com/video-color-lc ... -8805.aspx

 

A guy over on kzrider has a YouTube vidio of a cheapie. It's in the tool section

 

Top one *looks* similar but the tested one had 9mm lance (as does the lower one you linked, plus it comes with a hook, mirror and a magnet).

£125 was the tested one price so 200-250 dollars at a guess

Just having the discussion with foolber in another thread about how you guys get the good deals and we Brits get the shit end of the stick

Petrol/Gas around $14/gal over here
Seized soild, matt black, incomplete 750 seca made over £350 pushing $700) recently. I was bidding & prepared to go £225
On average you have $10k more income per year than we do

We must have assholes the size of dinnerplates we get shafted that much 8O

 

eh i wouldnt beat up on it too much. we have our own set of issues over here.

Thanks for the heads up! Heres a link to the thread on their forum and a link to the youtube video. with it's low clarity floppy cord poor large camera head and poor viewing angle I think I'll keep looking, Seems like an excellent call for some other applications or if on a tight budget.

http://www.kzrider.com/forum/21-tools/5 ... ion-camera

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee7Pr4XsDGw

 

Well you guys have the uh er hmm how about no um give me a second nope not that either shoot man let me think................
The funny accent.

 

Jolly good show Waldo sir, frankly I had forgotten what an utter joy one finds it to speak in the manner in which we do

Toodle pip

 

Say what