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Max 700N-No spark ?

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Wagy, Sep 12, 2016.

  1. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    i am reading treads on electric issues, so here is mine. 85 xj700n was not charging , found that PO had put a in line fuse from the red solinoid lire that splits into two(fuse was in lead going to rectifier) and was blown. I should of just replaced and tried, but decided to re-route and solder the split and replaced 30 amp main with new fuse holder. tucked all back in place and now i don't have spark at all. been 2 days now following and testing wires and relays. Turns over , just no start or spark, scew the charging problem, now it do'n even run and i need help. On the coils in front of gas tank , i did get close to the right ohms on the primary but nothing with the secondary (manual said to test from orange wire to end of spark plug wire and respectivle on the other one from gray to plug wire and on those two were not getting any reading. But when testing i did not have the black box T.C.I. pluged in or the other lead that goes to pick=up coil, so not sure what to do now ?

    Wagy, Yesterday at 4:48 PMReport
    #12+ Quot
     
  2. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    1. when you turn on the key what does work?
      I would recheck the main fuse work. look at pic polock posted for ignition

      , check your ignition fuse for voltage. check the red/white wire for voltage on the tci box

      this is incorrect ( I think the haynes manual is misprinted)
      test from orange wire to end of spark plug wire

      you test from spark plug wire to spark plug wire on same coil for secondary you can include the spark plug caps just add the ohms for total
      then for primary you test the two wires at the connector to the coil,

      Last edited: Yesterday at 6:44 PM
      XJ550H, Yesterday at 6:33 PMReport


    2. [​IMG]
      XJ550HWell-Known MemberPremium Member

      your specs

      XJ700 air-cooled models:
      Pick-up coils:
      120 ohms +/- 20% = 96 ohms to 144 ohms acceptable range
      Ignition Coils:
      Primary side (input from main wiring harness):
      2.7 ohms +/- 10% = 2.43 ohms - 2.97 ohms acceptable range

      Secondary side (spark plug wires, without their end caps):
      12K ohms +/- 20% = 9,600 ohms - 14,400 ohms acceptable range

      Spark plug caps:
      1985 N/NC models: 5K +/- 20% = 4,000 to 6,000 ohms per cap acceptable range
      1986 S/SC models: 10K +/- 20% = 8,000 to 12,000 ohms per cap acceptable range


      Spark plugs:
      1985 N/NC models: 0 ohms per plug
      1986 S/SC models: 5K ohms per plug

      XJ550H, Yesterday at 6:35 PMReport


    3. [​IMG]
      WagyMember

      TY 550H, hope you can stay in touch tonite i really need this fixed, heading to do some readings right now.
      I did ck volt at tci and had 12v, but i also had continuity between r/w and ground which i thought might mean a short from main switch to the plug that goes to pick-up coil under the side cover(which i did not remove yet but am getting ready to). I don't understand all about the plug caps and why it matters, the bike did run fine 2 days ago, so it's something i did when re-wiring or a componant just went bad by coincident? With key on everything works, starter turns, if it is any of the three safety switches or thier relays, it would not even turn over woukd it, or am i wrong about that ?

      Wagy, Yesterday at 7:40 PMReport


    4. [​IMG]
      XJ550HWell-Known MemberPremium Member

      if the starter safety relay was not working the starter would not turn over
      if you have 12 volts at tci that is good too
      unplug tci connectors
      on the tci the right connector goes to the ignition coils the left connector goes to the pickup coils
      red/white wire goes to both coils along with an orange to 1 coil and a gray to the other coil this is the primary side of coils and you should have
      Primary side (input from main wiring harness):
      2.7 ohms +/- 10% = 2.43 ohms - 2.97 ohms acceptable range

      the tci left connector has orange and gray wires as well as a black wire that goes to pickup coils
      orange to black should read Pick-up coils:120 ohms +/- 20% = 96 ohms to 144 ohms acceptable range
      gray to black should read Pick-up coils:120 ohms +/- 20% = 96 ohms to 144 ohms acceptable range

      measure the spark plug wires in coil pairs with caps on should read around 22k ohms
      spark plug caps are the boots on the spark plug they unscrew from wires and should have 5k ohms each.

      XJ550H, Yesterday at 9:48 PMReport


    5. [​IMG]
      XJ550HWell-Known MemberPremium Member

      as you can see from this pic (for 550) the + side of battery goes to starter relay (solenoid) and splits to your main fuse which goes to voltage regulator and main ignition switch. when you turn the key on your tail light should light up the key switch sends voltage to tail lights and to the fuses
      check your work to the main fuse

      [​IMG]

      XJ550H, Yesterday at 9:53 PMReport


    6. [​IMG]
      Rooster53Active MemberPremium Member


      I did ck volt at tci and had 12v
      Since you were having a charging problem be sure to check battery voltage when cranking. You need at least 9.5V to produce a healthy spark.


      With key on everything works, starter turns, if it is any of the three safety switches or thier relays, it would not even turn over woukd it, or am i wrong about that ?
      Only the side stand relay can disable the TCI and cause no spark. So, you could have a bike that is turning over, but the TCI is disabled because the side stand safety circuit is not working. A set of normally closed contacts in the side stand relay disables the TCI, so you can simply remove the side stand relay to eliminate the side stand safety circuit as an issue.

      Rooster53, Yesterday at 10:00 PMReport


    7. [​IMG]
      Thanks alot, both 550H and Rooster. That was some info i needed, i was thinking that the side stand would not even let it turn over same as clutch and nutural and also oil level sensor. but it might be a relay or switch. i just came in from garage now and will be back at it in the morning. I did find a couple of issues with the brushes in the altorantor ( one brush too short and one spring a little weak and low resistance about 1.7 ohms ) can the brushes cause any starting issue or is it only for charging system? the pickup coils both read good at 116 ohms and the primary ignition coil were good , i'm still not sure what and how to check the secondary ignition coils thru the plug wires ( is it from one plug wire to the other plug wire on the same ignition coil ?) By the way all lights work even tail light. thanks guys , i hope we talk soon.

      Wagy, Yesterday at 11:23 PMReport


    8. [​IMG]
      XJ550HWell-Known MemberPremium Member

      the brushes are for charging and wear at different rates. low battery at start will cause problems it can not drop below 9.5 volts when you press the starter button or tci will not fire

      secondary ignition coils
      yes from one plug wire to the other plug wire on same coil

      XJ550H, Yesterday at 11:29 PMReport

    1 more message...
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  3. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    OK 550H, if you got some time , i have all the # from the ignition system on the 85 maxim700N.
    Primary/Ignition coil #1 - 3.3 ohms @ 200 setting
    " " #2 - 3.4 " "
    Secondary/Ignition coil #1 - 13.0 ohms @ 2000K setting (plug wire to plug wire, same coil)
    " " #2 - 13.0 " " (both readings with boots off)
    Wire plug boots #1 cyl. - 8.5 ohms @ 2000K
    " #2 " - 4.7 " "
    " #3 " 4.8 " "
    " #4 " 9.9 " " ( the two high readings look like replacement parts )
    Pick-up coils #1 - 116 ohms
    " #2 - 117 "
    Sidestand Switch UP - 0 ohms
    " Down open curcit
    Sidestand relay (?) w/power - 0 ohms ( any setting )
    " w/o power - 0 ohms ( shows a (-) infront of 0 reading ? )
    It seems like the sidestand relay is bad, as you said last nite, if you just un-plug that relay it will over ride that safety fetcher. All other readings seem to be ok , except for two wire boots that should be replaced, but not the reason of a no spark issue, Can you tell me where to go from here ?
     
  4. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    New thread , need help , any ideas after seeing test results above.
     
  5. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    So did you try starting with the side stand relay removed?

    What about battery voltage when trying to start and the starter is spinning?

    Are you checking spark on one plug at a time with the other 3 still connected?
     
  6. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    your coils are in spec 13k ohms .you may want to trim 3/8 inch off each wire to improve connection.
    boot 1 and 4 being 8.5k ohms and 9.9k ohms put that coil way out of spec 18.4k plus 13K= 31.4K total should not exceed 26.4k
    you need to replace the caps.
    are your spark plugs nonresistive?

    when you replaced 30 amp main fuse did you follow the wiring diagram
    700 wire.PNG
     
  7. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    unplug the black/white wire at the tci we had a member have problem with that wire.
    it connects to the sidestand safety relay .
    check to see if the wire is shorted to frame
     
  8. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    TY for reply, the fuse replace is so simple i dont see how i could of got it wrong, Heavy red wire from pos battery to solinoid and also from pos battery to new 30 amp fuse, from fuse out to a split ( one to rectifier and other to main switch ). I have battery voltage going up the wire harness to the main switch and back down with key on to the tci.
     
  9. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    are
    spark plugs non resistor?

    you do need to change the 2 caps that are out of spec

    charge battery if it drops below 9.5 volts when cranking it will not fire the tci.

    any idea why the fuse blew to start with?
     
  10. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    i do not know what blew it, i believe it happened at 1st start-up after re-build and it was a in-line glass fuse that i think PO had placed after the split of power wire and going to the rectifier. So i eliminated that and re-soldered wires and while i was at it ,replaced the 30 amp main fuse holder with a water-proff in line push in between the pos battery and going out to the split that goes to main switch. the original 30 amp glass never had a problem. I did all that to try and find a problem that was not letting the battery charge and i pretty sure the add-on fuse being blown would have done it. where i screwed up is not just replacing that fuse and trying the bike and if that worked then do the re-fit of the other wires that i did'nt like, but after all that and was sure of my work the bike would'nt start at all, when it ran (just not charge before that) . So my problem is .... is it something i did when changing main fuse and removing add-on fuse or did a relay or componant just decide to go bad at the same time and cause me a mental break down. I am heading to the garage right now, i think i did check the continuity of B/W wire from harness side of sidestand switch plug to harness side of sidestand relay plug. but still thinking according to the manual that the ohm reading of the sidestand relay is not right, and please confirm that as long as the sidestand switch is good (which it is) then removing the relay will over-ride saftey and allow power to the TCI ? Also i can not find any info on testing TCI , if not a dead short in a power lead and all the other readings are at least close enough and the sidestand relay is over riden, then all is left is a bad TCI, but from history of running one time and then not one day later, i'm inclined to think it was a oversite on my part? Please advise.
     
  11. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    Hey 550H, GOOD NEWS ! Turns out it was a bad sidestand relay after all, your good info did lead me in the right direction, only my on ignorance on electrical systems is why it took so much effort on both our parts. Not knowing the relay would let it turn over was one of the things that keep me heading in the wrong direction. Just came in and bike fired. only for split second cause i have her striped of gas tank and the whole harness hanging from gen., pick-ups, coils, and every plug and relay under the covers. But on the up side, i now know where every wire and where every plug and relay go and what they do and how to test and what readings should be. So " Expierience is what you get when you were expecting something else !" Thanks for sticking with me, i am both relieved that finnally found the problem and pissed that it was so simple that 60 seconds could of done it ! But moving on a few hours of tucking wires and plugs and she should be all done and ready to ride, hopefully the charging problem i started with is fixed, i did check field stator for ohms and clean the brushes while i was there, maybe read about genorator test before i finish up just in case, but if not i at least know where and how to look for that now ! Thanks man, i'll give an up-date after a road test, very soon !!!
     
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  12. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    Just a quick shout out to XJ550H and a few others others that helped me with this last electrical issue.
    In the was of an update, i got her tucked back together last nite just before dark and checkedvolts on fully charged battery before starting and was at 12.64 volts, fired easly and output voltage to the battery was 14.38v. So it seems that both staring and charging is now wurking. Only got to do a few short tries last nite, but 1st thing this morning ,the sun was out and not a cloud in the sky, so i ran some errands and made a few stops and showed it off to a few people, ran about 2 hrs and over 50 miles and it was GREAT !!!! Runs smooth, straight, clean and strong.
    Thanks again to all, litterly could of not done it without you. SAM_0191.JPG SAM_0191.JPG SAM_0190.JPG SAM_0185.JPG 001.JPG 005.JPG
     
  13. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I like the red highlights.
     
  14. TheCrazyGnat

    TheCrazyGnat Well-Known Member

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    Nice artwork on that clutch cover, how did you accomplish that?
     
  15. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    Ya, i didn't want too much of red covers, but the brushed alunimun on that cover just would not shine enough.
    So one day in Auto Zone while looking for LED under-glow lights, i came aross this vinyl sticker and turned out it was almost perfect in size, and figured it went with the whole skull theme. Thanks for the notice, there is a lot of time into details and custom mods.
     
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  16. TheCrazyGnat

    TheCrazyGnat Well-Known Member

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    That bike is BA!
     
  17. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Very nice (and interesting) work.
     
  18. Wagy

    Wagy Active Member

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    Thanks, meet "MAXINE" coming from you guys, that means a lot, it's been a real labor of love, she just about wore me out, but she does love to be riden" hard & fast ". I do have a Love Letter about "Max" that i will post in Hangout Lounge pretty soon after i up-grade to Premium Member so i can post pics there and not overcroud forums, thanks again, and 1 more for the road. SAM_0186.JPG SAM_0197.JPG SAM_0196.JPG
     

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