Valve numbers... Intake loose, exhaust tight?

So these are my valve numbers...

From Forward Left (exhaust left) to Forward Right:

.10mm fits
.13mm doesn't fit
so: 11 to 12 mm, NOT spec, tight

.15mm fits
.18mm doesn't fit
so:16 to 17mm IN spec

.15mm fits
.18mm doesn't fit
so 16 to 17mm IN spec

.15mm fits
.18mm doesn't fit
so 16 to 17mm IN spec



From Back Left (intake left) to Back Right:

.18mm fits
.20mm doesn't fit
so 19~mm, NOT spec, loose

.10mm fits
.13mm doesn't fit
so 12~ mm (10 was quit loose) IN spec

.15mm fits
.18mm doesn't fit
so 16 to 17mm NOT spec, loose

.15mm fits
.18mm doesn't fit
so 16 to 17mm Not spec, loose


Looks like 3 out of 4 intakes are one step loose (huh? I thought they were supposed to get tighter; did PO or mechanic put them loose intentionally or something?).

Looks like 1/4 exhaust is tight.

I double checked all measurements.

There are no metric feeler gauges around. I checked all over. I got the largest gauge I could find, and this is what its got... There is no 14mm or 19mm, since it's in increments of inch fractions.

I'm going to go swap shims, but I just wanted to check with you guys and make sure I'm reading this right, and to ask about the wide intake clearances...

Just to make sure I understand right: clearances too small run the risk of burning a valve, clearances too large/wide will mean reduced compression/inefficient/incomplete burn?

 

I just pulled out my first shim (far right intake, Y280), and when I then took out the bucket holding tool the bucket (understandably, I guess) sprang back up with a POP. I went inside to read bigfitz' guide, and realize he says

"Read and record the number on the back of the shim, and put it back."

Hope no damage done from having 4 out at the same time? I'm fairly certain the buckets can take it, I just have to drive now with shims in hand to the mechanic to swap 'em out.

My 3 out-of-spec intake shims, from right to left, are Y280, Y270, Y275

My one out of spec exhaust shim is Y270.

So, if I'm not mistaken, I should change out

Y280 for Y285
Y270 for Y275
Y275 for Y280

and

Y270 for Y265

Anyone able to confirm?

 

So, if I understand you correctly:
INTAKE: left to right, tail light side of motor, facing forward (sitting on the bike, back of motor, left to right)
I1 - .18 (out of spec)
I2 - .15 (in spec)
I3 - .15 (in spec)
I4 - .15 (in spec)

and

EXHAUST: left to right, headlight side of motor, facing forward (sitting on the bike, front of motor, left to right)
E1 - .10 (out of spec)
E2 - .15 (out of spec)
E3 - .15 (out of spec)
E4 - .15 (out of spec)

Need to make sure this is right because if it is, you have 1 out of spec INTAKE and 4 out of spec exhaust.

It is not recommended to rotate the cams on the buckets when the shim is out.

 

Wish I had known you weren't supposed to rotate cams on buckets. Mechanic told me that too when I walked in. ugh... I figure that's the kind of thing bigfitz would have mentioned in his walkthrough. Seems odd that that wasn't mentioned.

How do people do shim swaps, then? Take everything out, measure, put it all back together, go get new shims, go home, take apart again, take out old, put in new, put back together, and return old shims? Seriously?

I just never imagined it going that way. :\

Trying to figure out how to put them back in without turning the cams anymore... If I'm careful, I might be able to get them all in without turning any cams over the buckets, I need to go outside and check what they look like. Bummer.

 

Wow, this is incredibly frustrating. It is very difficult to get a bucket caught like this. Bad gumption trap. Frustrated that I haven't done this as flawlessly as I tried, despite so much preparation. How did this not get mentioned in the guide, that you MUST put it back? It seemed like such a passing comment to me that I didn't even notice it until I went back searching for it because the 'pop' of it springing back spooked me. Even then, it was such a casual comment...

...So irritated. Gah.

 

Too loose will not allow the cam's "ramp" built into the lobe profile to work properly. The cam is supposed to accelerate the valve smoothly - - if too loose the cam slams into the valvetrain. Creates noise.
However, there's no loss in compression or efficiency, as you are taking away duration and overlap. There would be a minor loss of peak horsepower.

Why can't Chacal sell a set of 8 formica/teflon chips to use in this scenario??

 

First off, quit trying to blame my write-up for your failure to follow it. The article was intended to SUPPLEMENT a service manual. Further, if you'll READ the my articles carefully (instead of just looking at the pictures) you'll find that there ARE NO "casual" comments. A great deal of care and consideration goes into choosing each and every word to make the how-tos as "idiot proof" as humanly possible.

I SAID "put it back." I MEANT "put it back." It wasn't a "suggestion" it is an important step in the process. That you failed to heed it is not my fault; you need to pay closer attention to what you're doing.

tskaz is right about your clearances; and until you get a proper metric feeler gauge I wouldn't mess with the intakes that seem to be at .15mm either.

K-D Tools' 2274 is widely available for under $10. Google it.

 

+1 on Fitz's comment. I followed his write-up as I am sure many others have and had no problems what-so -ever. Thank you again fitz for all you do on this forum. You have helped me out many times and I appreciate it!!

 

The idea is you pull the shims out one at a time and record the numbers off of the back. Once you have all of your numbers you look at the chart and order the shims you need. The school of thought on new shim vs old shims is that old shims have wear patterns on them that won't agree with different cams.
You may need to unbolt the cams one at a time and put the shims back in.

 

Fintips - despite the fact that you have an SAE feeler set, you can get these other sizes by stacking 2 THINNER gauges together, provided you don't trap grit in between them.

Hopefully you didn't scratch your cam lobes, but if you need to continue to rotate your cams, you could at least cushion things. Cut up some milk jug plastic strips for example.

 

could always pull the cams its not that hard.

 

I have already put them back. I didn't see any wear on the buckets, so it seems they are fine, but I'll reserve judgement until I've put some more miles--certainly seems fine for now. (The mechanic didn't seem worried about the cam lobes, but the buckets; said that if they do get scratched up, you have to disassemble and pull the buckets and file them down smooth again.)

He also told me that he wouldn't mess with the loose ones, especially since they're moderate, and so I just switched the tight one down one grade in the end.

It was a great guide. I wish there had been a warning there, though. I had been picturing this whole thing together in my mind for some time, and couldn't imagine how else this could go. One more lesson learned...

Also, the bucket wasn't as hard to catch as I had imagined; it's just that the bucket springs up more than it would if it had a shim inserted, since that makes a much wider gap. As a result, every time I started to roll the cam off of it, and saw the bucket start to come up, I thought "ugh, guess I didn't catch it, let's try again". Doing that 4 times in a row, being sure I caught it every time, was maddening, all the while with the burning frustration of having done something wrong when I tried so hard to do everything right.

Turns out I was catching it. On a hunch, I tried to pop a shim in. Slipped right in. So... In case some other person out there is actually stupid enough to do the one mistake no one else can make...

As far as it being 'a supplement', though, fitz, I know in a recent post (I can point you to it if you don't remember) you told someone they don't need the manual to do the shim adjustment, just your guide.

Anyways, I don't blame you. I did expect there to be a warning if there was a risk, since you warn regarding just about everything you can find an excuse to warn about, but 'expectations' are all my fault. I don't have the right to expect anything.

Anyways, ease off. Let a guy be irritated once in a while. I didn't go out and start cursing people or anything. Tell me you've never gotten irritated working on your bike and having made a mistake...

It's running well, anyways. Pain to spend a full day (including driving to a mechanic to swap shims, and a break to drive around and help a friend) all to swap one little shim for one size down. I'm sure I'll be much faster next time.

Edit: And hey, on the positive side, I nailed the use of the valve bucket holding tool!

 

BTW: I found out my valve cover gasket was the wrong shape--it had holes for bolts that don't exist in mine. Is it a 550 cover, or maybe a pre-yics cover gasket? Anyways, my old gasket didn't have any tears, and didn't stick anywhere, so I went ahead and reused it. Rubber, not paper. Good news, means it was replaced and maintained by a PO, yeah?

Should I go ahead and order a replacement gasket and redo that anyways?

Also, is pulling the cams that easy? I thought about it, but was afraid I'd just dig myself into something deeper since I didn't have a guide from here doing that, figured it was a pretty precise thing that shouldn't be disturbed if possible.

What are the materials of all the components? Cam is aluminium? Buckets are also? shims are some hard alloy?

 

You're "guestimating". I can tell you for a fact that just because a 15 fits, doesn't mean a 16 will.

As for the gasket, if the donuts are good, and it doesn't leak, by all means run it that way.

BUT

With the trip you're planning, I would definitely put one in the pack, JIC (spare donuts too)

 

I replaced the donuts, and I have noticed a small leak out of the front (exhaust) side, so I'll be getting a new one.