The Beginning... An Engine Rebuild (Formerly Black Bits in Oil Sump)

Alright. I have read every post that I can find on the black chunks that I found when I pulled the Oil Sump last night... I recently acquired a 1982 XJ650RJ Seca with 26k miles. It has been heavily abused by previous owners. The bike had never had the carbs disassembled or cleaned, and the PO ripped out the airbox and velocity stacks and ran the bike stock jetting without any air filtration. The wiring harness has been butchered, fuel tank was 'hammered' in to make it look more 'street fighter' and then bondo'd when that didn't turn out well. Tach was ripped off and thrown away. Clutch cover was broken during previous removal, and PO JB Welded the damage rather than sourcing a new piece.

So, yes, I have my work cut out for me.
But back to my main concern... The bits of black in the sump are not hard, solid plastic, but soft like hardened rubber. They have pits and grooves much like hardened, packed in ATV gasket compound. From the view I have from the top, I am not able to see any damage, cracks, or chips missing out of any of the chain guides. I am fully aware that my minuscule view from the head does not mean that nothing is fragmenting deeper, but the texture of the pieces does not say chain guide to me. So I took some pics...

Thoughts?

 

those chunks sure look like chain guide and the stuff in the pan is sludge. take that steel plate off, there's more

 

Oh yes, there's sludge. Hadn't started cleaning when I took those photos. Oil pump has been remove for cleaning too. Currently in the process of removing the highly mangled oil filter housing bolt.

 

On my way to having the engine out of the frame. Only way to find out for sure whether the guides are good or not is to get eyes on 'em. I'm going to check compression before I finish pulling the engine, I want to check that I don't need to replace piston rings while I'm in there.
I am getting based on reading here that I should just go ahead and replace the chain at the same time, since I'm inside, and I'll probably go ahead and replace the starter clutch too.
There were some of the black chunks in the oil pump filter, so a thorough cleaning is definitely in order.

Are the chain guides rubberized? Because I cut through some of the chunks I found, and all of them have the texture of rubber, easy to cut with a razor blade, not hard plastic.

Still have to take my impact and bolt extractor to the oil filter bolt, wasn't able to get around to it last night, and I'm back on duty for 24 hours now.

 

Slow down or stop altogether until diagnosis has been confirmed.

When the primary chain guide breaks up, the chunks are generally much larger and it is NOT made of any sort of flexible material. Granted, the chain guide is a potential issue until replaced; but it may not be the source of your chunks and from the sound of things you have MUCH bigger issues to deal with.

You may be in a position where it is better to simply replace the motor based on the history you've given us. The parts needed for a COMPLETE top-end rebuild (pistons, rings, machine shop work, valve stem seals and possibly valve guides, gaskets, etc., etc.,) are cost-prohibitive compared to the reasonably ready availability of motors and "parts" bikes.

Don't worry so much about a potential chain guide issue right now; get a compression test and let's see if this is a lost cause or a diamond in the rough.

 

Alrighty. So, I do NOT have any issues with my chain guides, as far as I can tell. Am still delicately trying to remove the oil filter bolt, but I am close to taking a cutting wheel to it, as the bolt extractors did not work. I have pulled the head and the cylinders, and the guides are flexible and not crackling or chipping. There are no chunks missing that match the pieces I found in the sump, and as I previously stated, the bits are rubbery and lead me to think that someone got heavy-handed with the Gasket compound and it would up in the sump.

However, I can't risk such an assumption, so I'm going to do a complete tear down. I guess I should go ahead and replace the guides and chain and such, since I'm already inside.

Can someone give me an opinion on some pics I have attached of the camshaft bearing surfaces?



Is Seafoam my best option for cleaning my valves and cylinder head? They are super sooty from the PO running the bike without an airbox. I attached some photos of what I have gotten through so far, (and I was writing this post as you responded, BF).

 

And FWIW after the fact Fitz, I ran compression before pulling any of the parts. Got (1-4) 150, 148, 148, 152.

 

Idk if it's the best option but it works real good. Soak the valves over night then hit them with a brass brush. Takes the old carbon right off.

Gary H.

 

Well, I know it has been a while since I have posted on here... but I was rear-ended in an accident in my 2008 Honda Element, and have spent the past month dealing with the medical and vehicular repercussions of that.

Finally getting back to the old girl and the engine rebuild. So, here's where I am.

Carbs have been torn down completely and cleaned 'zestfully'.
Engine is torn down, I'm still in the process of thoroughly cleaning every bit and piece. Parts are all labelled and in dozens of ziplock baggies, waiting for cleaning.

Just emailed Len with a ginormous parts list for the carb, engine, and brake rebuilds, as well as new pug wire caps, plugs, and other such misc. accouterments.

Does anyone have any ideas on removing paint from the engine case and jugs? I will be repainting it, but the old paint is too rough and chipping/peeling, and there are probably two or three different coats of fizz-bomb paints, etc. from different owners. I know that there isn't a 'quick-fix' for stripping the paint, but I will not use any blast media, and I don't have anyone near me that can soda blast the parts. I was going to start out trying acetone and brushes, for lack of any better options currently.

Pictures to come soon-ish.

Comments and thoughts appreciated, as always!

 

http://www.tcpglobal.com/KLE-EAR322_2.html?gclid=CPrTlZyztMICFcFDMgodkk8Aag#.VISG60vAWw4
Here's the paint stripper you want.

 

Yup, KMoe speaks the truth, any Aircraft stripper will totally kick the paint's ass. Get it at any auto parts store. Wear protection when using it, hand eye and respiratory protection. Do it outside, also. Seriously, get this stuff on your skin and you will understand why wearing goggles and a dust mask are totally necessary. Get it in your eyes or mouth and you may be heading to the hospital. God I love that they still sell stuff this dangerous over the counter.

 

Haha! Thanks k-moe and Bigshankhank. I will give the Aircraft stripper a whirl.

I can't wait to get building on the engine.

I know it'll stir up a million different opinions, but what has anyone's experience been with paints? I don't personally love VHT high-temp paints, but I haven't sought out any alternatives yet, so if someone has a suggestion, I'd love to hear it.

 

Go to your local HD dealership, you can buy the same paint they use on their engines in a rattle can. Grey or black, tough stuff. Expensive, but it will last.

 

Caution: Make certain the primer, base and clear are compatible. Mixing manufacturing and types most likely will result in disaster. Len/Chacal also sells three stage set-ups with yamaha paint match. I haven't purchased any yet so idk what the cost would be. I know he sells it for the frame, engine, calipers, m/c, controls, final drive, wheels and plastics. Idk if he sells a fuel proof clear for the tank. Yes, they're rattle can, but because Len sells them i'm assuming they are decent for application on our bikes. Everything i have bought from him has hit its mark. Also might want to look at Eastwood.com, Rustoleum.com or similar site and do price comparison. Hope this help.

Gary H.

 

Anybody have opinions on what stage to paint the engine? Mine is apart due to a full rebuild over the winter months, and I'd like to repaint it, but haven't seen too much about whether to paint the engine as a whole, or do the head, block and upper crankcase separately.

 

xjyamaha, it depends. I will be painting everything separately while it is apart. This requires a ton of detailed masking if you want to do it properly, unless you want to spend a god-forsaken number of hours cleaning the gasket and seal surfaces, IMO, but I'm pretty anal about that stuff. Others may chime in and tell you that it isn't so bad. I have repainted several car and vintage truck/suv engines. I by far prefer the results of painting the engine rather precisely while it is apart. If you aren't doing a ground-up rebuild, and you have only disassembled the head, I would consider painting the case as a whole, as seen here...
http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/index...t-cafe-racer-project-in-pictures.43554/page-2

John P.

 

I've got the crankcases split, so I'll likely paint while it's disassembled. Thanks for he insight!

 

OHHHH MAN! I got off work at 7am this morning, and guess what was waiting for me?! A Big Beautiful, Heavy, Awesome box from Len @ XJ4Ever! Pictures to follow asap!!!!

 

As promised...
That box was packed FULL of goodies!

 

Setting on my organizing bench, the contents of my package from Len - A beautifulfull gasket set, full oil seals set, full deluxe carb rebuild set (the float valves are SHWEET!), new vacuum line, fuel line, Stainless DOT Brake lines, and a swath of additional bolts, clamps, and washers to augment replacement of parts!


And, as an added bonus... I had time this afternoon to take the #1 piston out of soak and rinse it. My heart melts for clean engine parts... (#2 piston before disassembly and soak for comparison.)

 

Cheaper to buy a replacement engine, ask me how I know.

 

Oh yes, Bigshankhank, I have read your thread from start to finish. (Thanks for your sacrifice, by the way... despite the time and energy you poured into that eventually graveyard-ed engine, I learned a lot from your postings.) This engine is not even in the same realm of that bad. And, as in your thread, if, for an unforeseen reason, I break down and (Gasp!) buy a replacement engine, you are absolutely more than welcome to throw me an 'I told you so...'

 

Nothing better than pulling an engine down to nothing and putting it back together again.
The smell of engine oil embedded into your hands... aaah sweet!
Looking good

 

There is something about that sense of accomplishment of completely tearing down an old engine and essentially making it new again. Cheaper to just replace, yeah probably, but if it's affordable and something you have the means to do I say go for it. I'd much rather spend the time doing something like this than siting in front of a TV.

 

Well, I didn't make as much progress as I would have liked today. I was super busy at work the past 24 hours and had to get some rest this morning when I got off. Got to work this afternoon on finishing cleaning the top half of the case. Spent a few hours working on it with the dremel. Got all of the corrosion off of the case (Finally!!) and all I have left to work on is the bottom seal surface before I can start masking off for paint!

 

Had a few hours this evening to work. Top half of the case is finish prepped. Ready for a final rinse, then masking off, primer and paint.

 

Got a few more hours in this afternoon.

Oil Sump cleaned, almost ready for paint.


Soaked the distribution block for a couple hours in parts cleaner, went ahead and threw it back in to soak overnight after I held it up to the light...

And saw that gunky, crusty mess inside.

Didn't get a final pic after pulling the paint from the bottom half of the case, but here it is bathed in aircraft stripper, after I cleaned all of the gasket surfaces.


That's all I have to share for the night, quite a bit of progress for a couple of hours. I've been taking my time on the gasket surfaces, I personally feel that they are more important than the paint...

 

I have found that VERY careful application of a flat razor blade, followed by synthetic steel wool does a remarkable job on gasket surfaces. On my original engine I left one gouge working around the cylinder studs when the blade caught an edge. Otherwise the mating surfaces everywhere else look new.

 

Bigshankhank, that is exactly what I have been doing. It has taken quite a bit longer than I thought it would due to overzealous amounts of what appears to be gasket shellac (specifically on the oil sump mating surface) where someone tried to fix a leaky gasket without replacing it. That stuff, I believe, may be harder than aluminum.

 

More cleaning and paint removal today.

Work tomorrow. Thursday will be wipe down with grease and wax remover, masking gasket surfaces, and a coat of primer. Woot!

 

Got a solid chunk of time in today. Gasket surfaces masked.
Top and bottom of case wiped down with wax and grease remover and primered.




And also got to open a package that arrived while I was on duty...

Used gas tank, got a deal on the 'Bay, It has a dent on the right side above the Yamaha emblem, but the original tank had five major dents under all the coats of paint. So this one has a lot less body work, which was worth the $110.

 

Oh man, with the key, too? Score!

 

I know!!! I couldn't believe I got it at the price I did for the quality!

 

Looks like you painted the inside of the oil filter area, might not be a good idea.

 

Anything that was a gasket surface was masked off. Anything that I didn't want paint to stay on and wasn't a flat gasket surface got brushed with a thin layer of fresh oil. Wipe the area down with mineral spirits afterwards, and voila.

 

neat trick. I once saw a guy painting his rims with tires mounted on them. he first wiped the tires down with a film of dish detergent, then sprayed the rims before the detergent dried. the overspray washed right off after the rims were dry.

CN

 

Just a little time, but I made use of it. Case is under color and clear.



On to oil sump cover and jugs. Still s lot of cleaning to do on the jugs. Considering investing in a benchtop blast cabinet and soda to get them really clean. Can't stand the idea of them being less than from-the-factory clean before I paint them.

I have pondered it before, but I have official decided that I consider OCD cleaning to be one of my hobbies.

Oh. And I scored an airbox from a Maxim... The PO had hacksawed the mounting brackets for the side covers off of my frame, so slapping on replacement side covers wasn't an option. I figured that, although not accurate to the bike with the chrome side plates, the airbox would still perform its necessary function. As cool as pods might look, that's an experiment for a different day. Found the airbox for $49, boots are still supple, no dry rot or cracks. Woot!

 

You are on fire! Looking real good........

 

Thanks, Len!

 

Well, not much progress recently, I've been working on some home renovations.

Went down to the workspace, put a final clear on the case top and bottom and removed the masking. Not too bad looking. Still thinking I'm going to go for a blast cabinet and soda to clean the jugs.

 

Looking great,

Take a look at your private messages, I sent you a list of stuff I have.

 

will the 650 maxim airbox fit the 650 seca?

dave

 

Thanks, eco!

hogfiddles, it fits with the same mounting bolt position with the chrome end covers removed. I haven't checked to see if the covers will fit, I just did a quick test fit. Obviously it has the screw holes for the end covers that the RJ box didn't have. The reality is that the PO butchered the frame, removed the rear frame support bracket/taillight mount, seat mounts, and the side cover mounting tabs, so I'm trying to bring the bike back to a mostly original state with some mild alterations to make it functional again.

 

I could take a couple pics of my 650rj to show you where the side cover mounts should go.... the mounts themselves are just a little flat tab with a hole in it.....if you're good at making stuff and welding--

 

Just in case anyone is interested...

The airbox is identical, minus the holes for mounting the side covers.
PO hadn't fully hacked off all the mounts, so I placed a set of side covers on to show fitment.
Photos for those curious...



Now with chrome side covers...



Probably won't be overly useful to most, but I was glad to know it fits. Obviously the Seca side covers would not fit with the chrome side covers, that's relatively self-explanatory.

 

Yeah... I'm no good at welding yet, I can just do the basics. I'm sure that I could fab the pieces given enough time and have someone else weld them on, that being said, with how I will have to work to fix the rear frame area, I will probably put my time and energy towards that and forego the side covers for the moment. Maybe someday though...