yet another, no start post on 700xj

i printed the tech piece on here about a No Start, but... i thought i had it when i saw the connector in the pigtail for the large red wire on the TCI (anybody gotta pic of one) was burned up, so i cut the wire and butt spliced it together. but, still have original problem NO SPARK in ANY plug!

Took both coils out..no fun.. took them to the yammer slammer dealer, even tho when I put an ohm meter on the secondaries i got INFINITY, THEY claimed to say that they checked out perfectly....BOFUM! well crap! so now on this Chacal check list, i skip directly to #2, which says verify 12V during cranking...put red probe to Red/W terminal at the TCI box (with the box connected). Put the black probe to the BK terminal at the TCI and etc etc but i don't see where it is he is talking about to put the leads, so i am at a STOP till one o yas enlighten me please. and although this is step 3, N safety Sw, correct me if i'm wrong, but it that is the problem the bike wouldn't even crank over would it? (and it does.

so a little background. last time i rode this a month ago it started up but required an extra long warm up, strangly long. once i got it going i drove it about 20 miles no problem. turned it off for a half hour, drove it another 30 miles no problem. turned it off for about five or ten minutes, started up again no prob, drove it 25 miles and went into a parking lot and the bitch died. didn't start for about three tries, then starts up. drove about a mile and pulled over, almost stopped here a backfire, died. would'nt start for about a minute, then started and ran fine the ten miles back home.

Couple weeks later, no spark. So as soon as i can figure out where to put these meter probes, i'll get back to my checklist. also, i got two dry plugs and two wet ones.

I looked up the TCI it's the black box. so then, what is the giant heat sink jobie doo?

 

12 volts at cranking aka battery voltage drop test negitive post of battery and positive post of battery then press starter button.

with the tci box turn on key
black probe to negitive battery post and check voltage at red/white wire on tci


check your sidestand switch test by removing the sidestand safety relay
this will prevent stalling if related to the switch

 

without battery charger because i left the key on all nite like a dildoe, i got 11 volts before cranking and 11 volts during cranking. but i got no spark still i think what ever tell my coil to fire is titts up.

 

It's good that your getting good power while cranking, but if you're having starting/spark issues, charge it first. The TCI is very twitchy about low voltage... though 11v should be fine.

Did you check resistance on your plug caps and wires?

I'm not very knowledgeable about the coils, but you should be getting (non infinite) resistance there - don't have access to the specs as I'm at work though. Sure you're measuring correctly? Do you have an FSM/Haynes/etc manual?

 

Can we please lighten up on the language please.

Ahem ...Polite request from the moderators

 

+1
Coming from a confirmed potty-mouth. Save it for other venues please.

 

I think 'butt splice' is a legitimate term to use in this context.

 

buuuaah ha ha. little HELP please??? i had 11V . butt with charger on +13V and still n/s. not a single sound like it fired a plug once. i'll get back to the check list tomalli. didn't do it this aft because my www was down and couldnt get to all the helpful comments as to what might be wrong. but did hear a good joke about a porno in asstralia that they are beotching about down there for some reason... a movie about a dickerydo, haha, called dickerydome. hahahahahaha! yes it's a real thing. maybe if i had a dickerydo i should shove up this xj's exhaust pipe it might cornvince it to run? dickerydome! ha, i'm killin myself!

 

You are coming across as an arrogant arse.
A polite request to 'tone it down' - and this is your reaction?
3rd grade? Maybe 4th?
Bullheimer - most people of average intelligence recognize really quickly that this is a strong community filled with good people that like to help others. When in an environment as such it is best to assimilate or you may find that cooperation is hard to come by.

If you want help then be respectful.

I can swear with the best of them, there is a time and place. Not now and not here.

 

It may be that the sidestand switch is stuck, which interupts the ignition circuit. Pull the boot back from the switch, spray it with contact cleaner and/or silicon spray, and wiggle it until the pin is all the way forward.

Please take our recommendations about language useage seriously.

 

10/4. although you dont like my language let me at least point out that at no time did i INSULT any of you. if what i said insulted you then maybe i'm not the one in 4th grade.

what i'm trying to illicit from anybody with that background story of my last ride, is if they think that maybe, with me getting no spark in ANY wire, is that the TCI could be fried. but i am not hearing this. i was told by a back yard mechanic last week to check that kick stand switch too, which xj55 mentioned above in post # 2. My thoughts were that if this were bad, and it acted like the kickstand was down and in gear, that the starter would not engage at all. Since it is turning over, my thinking is that's not it.
If anyone can verify that i'd appreciate it, as well as any ideas on TCI retailers.

 

ebay. $85 from the Netherlands. if that's even it. checked all the voltages at the pins and they check out. here's what the inside of a tci unit looks like with no corrosion, no burnt components and all good solders ffr (for future reference)

 

Pretty sure the kickstand switch just cuts ignition - I know if you put your kickstand down while in gear, the bike will die immediately. It won't stop the starter from running. This is the case on my bike, but it may not be the stock setup as my XJ's electrical has been modified by a halfwit.

TCI is generally left as the very last thing to check as you can't test it, just need to replace, and AFAIK you can't buy new ones, so you need to source a used module. Not too big a deal, mind you, though I've no idea what compatibility there is between different XJ modules. Chacal would be the guy to ask.

I think I've got a spare module from an 82 750 I could sell in my Big Box Of Spare Parts, but don't know if it'll work on the 700X.

The kickstand switch is extremely easy to test, however - you can just unplug it. If the problem exists when the kickstand switch is unplugged then it's not the problem.

 

thanks wintersdark. tried and failed. been reading this all day: http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFAQ.html#a10p0 probly a member here to under a different name, but got voltage on all the right pins and zip out. unless there is something lame like fuse hiding somewhere, i read there's a Ballast Resistor on some bikes. i'm guessing i'm gonna be sending off for a new used tci from holland.

also did chacals test for the coils, got high (infinity) ohm reading on both orange and grey wires at terminal, with terminal unplugged. i didnt catch if you are supposed to check the male or female connector tho and just checked the male

ps that link i gave is not for an xj but for another yam model

 

You can remove the side stand relay to defeat the ignition safety circuit, as the side stand relay operates with a set of normally closed contacts that open when a safe condition exists - side stand up or in neutral. Disconnecting the side stand switch will shut down the ignition as the contacts in the switch must close to engage the side stand relay and open the set of normally closed contacts. The two wires (non CMS bikes) on the main harness that mate with the side stand switch must be shorted together or tied to ground.

This just means the starter safety circuit is working. If the side stand relay is not working and the contacts opening the ignition will be disabled. Since the two circuits share common switches (neutral and side stand), and if the starter works in both conditions - neutral OR in gear with side stand up and clutch pulled in, then you have verified switch functionality. The next logical process is to remove the side stand relay to verify if the relay, diode block, or associated wiring may be causing the ignition shutdown.

 

not quite following that 53 but will short the two wires together and see.

Rooster baby it just started trying to fire! still, with a screw driver i cant see or hear a spark. just judging from the sound of it, it's tried a couple of times. pretty sure that switch is just, but now i have to start looking for reasons i have just a clapped out spark as the Yam dealer said my coils/wires were working great... i'll update as soon as i get the tank back on

 

just started right up with the battery charger on. i'll deal with this weak spark some other time but still, i dont know why it doesn't spark like a car does with a screwdriver down the plug wire hole on the end and the shaft right next to the cylinder head. but i'll worry about that some other day. THANKS ROOSTER and everybody else almost!

now, where'd i put that black RTV?

 

Because a car uses a different sort of ignition system. A TCI system has what looks like (but isn't ) a weaker spark. This is by design. The spark is of a longer duration than seen in a CDI, or HEI, system.

The best way to check the spark is by laying one (and only one) spark plug on the head and looking at the gap.

It's good to hear that you got her to start.

The two wires you shorted together, were they for the sidestand switch?
I ask because the switch itself usually is only dirty, not faulty.

 

Or you finally got enough voltage out of the battery to get it started. That was suggested earlier, but sometimes it is not so obvious. There is just not enough voltage available to the coils to get a good spark if the starter is pulling the battery down to about 10V or less, 9.5V is really starting to cause issues.

The thing is, with a functioning starter the only way shorting the side stand wires at the main harness is going to work is if the diode block or associated wiring is bad. That is why the suggestion of removing the side stand relay is given, as that will bypass the ignition disable regardless of the condition of the side stand switch, neutral switch, diode block or associated wiring - excepting the one B/W wire at the TCI that could conceivably get pinched to ground.

So, maybe try and verify the shorted wires are really doing something and it wasn't the battery by reconnecting and trying again. If you get no start again, then time to check the diode block and associated wiring.

 

ok so bad news. i did tie the two wires to the side stand, or kick stand as i been calling it, together (by jumping it at the connector with a short piece of wire and two male spade connectors) and it started on Sunday and Monday about three times each day. (tried it every time i walked by it., however, i did not ride it. Tuesday, i started it and after it died a couple times from not right choke setting or idle setting (i assume), it was running fine warming up after i dailed them both in. After about five minutes of running, i went into the house to get my helmet and it was silent when i returned. This in itself was not surprising but Guess What! NO spark again from the sound of it!!! Still cranking hard with the battery charger on it. I did un short the connector and plugged back in the kick stand safety switch and tried it, per Roosters suggestion and nothing. I thought this was overwith, but here we go all over again. I have not checked any diode block because i don't even know where it is or what it looks like. I re-seated every connector in the area of the MCI but it didn't help. I've been trying now for two days to start it and it's just like i never did anything

 

PLEASE NOTE this is Page 2 of thread.
I just re-seated every connector behind the headlight the other day. i did not see any fuses in there. I also scraped them before i re-seated them.

From this: "
2. Verify 12V during cranking. Set the meter to DC Volts. Put the red meter probe to the Red/White terminal at the TCI box (with the TCI box connected). Put the black probe to the Black terminal at the TCI. With the ignition on, this should read 11.5 to 13 volts or so. Crank the engine. This should not drop below 10V or so.

2a. Low or no voltage before cranking: Bad fuse box, bad ignition fuse, Run/Stop switch bad or off, bad ignition switch (key)." Where is the ign. fuse? the 25A one in the fuse holder next to the battery?

0 ohms on run, only .3 ohms on stop. that's not right. but what can i say. i have Batt Voltage at all the right places, on the connectors to the start/stop, at the s/s, at the TCI. ground is connected at all the black wires. i reseated all the connectors again. i'm stumped again.

can anybody tell me what the round electric thing is next to the 25A fuse holder under the seat? one thing that threw me is my battery charger was only putting out 11V on trickle. i had to put it on 40A charge to get the full 13V. wasted yet more time on that, trying to find a V drop that didn't exist.

 

round thing i think is starter relay.

this page: http://web.archive.org/web/20071217...es.com:80/MotorCity/Speedway/7795/ignman.html
says ohms at pick up coil should be 700 ohms but both of mine (with the connector at the TCI disconnected) read 115 ohms. should i be measuring with the connector plugged into the TCI?

 

Do yourself a favor and buy a brand new battery......had a similiar problem......little or no spark......I replaced with new. ...it started right up.......TCI rarely the problem

 

i'm sorry for not mentioning this in the OP but my battery from pacific power batteries or whatever, is only a year old. i just have been wearing it out trying to start this pig. It can't be bad already i dont think. but you might be right, i should probably at least take it down there and ask them why its only at 11V. i'm on my way right now.

 

You can get brand new batteries that are weak, age doesn't really matter.

 

This ^^^
Just this spring I had a bad one right out of the box, they load tested it, affirmed it was bad and replaced it.

 

Once a battery sulfates from sitting around from non-use and not being on a tender from day to day .......they are pretty much junk.......sulfating destroys them....they will never hold a correct charge especially during the starting or cranking process when needed the most to fire the TCI & plugs.....

 

my battery is still good.. for the time being anyway. the meter i was using (paid about $15 for it) didn't measure the Vdc accurately! With my fluke its at 13V after bringing it back from the battery store. But even with my charger on it wont even try to spark. My prior post about the 115 ohms at the pick up coil's connector on the TCI is what i'm wondering about because the link (Post #22), says it should be 770 ohms. Is that right?. Both measures the same, 115 ohms, both disconnected AND connected, from black to orange and black to grey. I know the value is off, but i doubt BOTH pick up coils would read the same unless they were both working right as i cant see both going bad at the same time. Just hoping to get a proper resistance reading for these pick up coils as that's the only thing i can think of right now. I guess i should have checked from orange to grey?

 

Along with the FSM or Haynes manual this is the best source of information:

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-information-overload-hour.27544/

"XJ700-X water-cooled models:

Pick-up coils:
120 ohms +/- 20% = 96 ohms to 144 ohms acceptable range"

That is a good resting voltage, but what is most important is what it maintains when providing the starter the high current. Now that you have a good meter, check the battery voltage when the bike is cranking and make sure it stays above 9.5V, and preferably higher. Check the voltage on the battery terminals and not the battery post just to be sure the connections are solid.

Most battery "chargers" are only able to deliver low levels of power and are not near enough to meet the demand for the starter.

 

ok it's been over a month. i have taken my bike to a backyard mechanic who did everything i did and said it was the tci. i bought a used, non tested one off ebay and it did not work. i bought another used, non tested one off of ebay and it did not work.
Tonight, i just picked it up cause he gave up. What are the chances all three tci's are bad? i don't know. but when i told the guys son how my bike acted the last time i drove it, he said that sounded exactly the same as his honda CBR the last time he drove it and went all thru it just like me and it turned out to be the silver heat sink this side of the tci, which is the Regulator/Voltage rectifier. anybody think this could be my issue? any way to test w/o it running?

 

test the diodes in the rectifier with your meter

test whites to red and black both directions with diode test function

 

well bro, i appreciate the post, but i just bought a so called 'tested' one off ebay for $9 + shipping. now i want to get it in there and then see if i need to find a 'tested' TCI. i have about 11 days to send the first tci back to the seller. if it works i might just sell it myself as a known good unit. this blows. i never got a call back to take it up to the shop in bellingham like they told me they would back in june.

 

Have you thought about sending your TCI's to someone to have them tested on a known good running XJ700....

I am sure there is someone out there to help you out. It is an easy plug and play test

 

Highly unlikely, but getting one of them tested as fiveofakind suggested in not a bad idea.

So do this:

1. Verify battery is fully charged with a resting voltage of at least 12.6V
2. Remove the side stand relay, this has been suggested several times but I don't see where it has been done.
3. Turn the key "ON" and attach the DMM positive probe to the R/W wire at the TCI, attach the DMM negative probe to the black wire at the TCI, what voltage do you have?
4. Engage the starter while still monitoring the above voltage, what voltage do you have?

You will also need to revisit this and don't trust the shop. You need to get a reading on each secondary, and if not determine if you have bad parts or operator error that caused it.

I would also be thinking about a new set of plugs as yours may be fouled from improper choke or no spark.

 

Just thinking out loud here but I would check the ground connections. I've read about all the tests you have done which is good but even if you have power where you're supposed to without a ground it's a mute point

 

That is why he needs to check the TCI voltage at the TCI. Any anomaly in the ground or high side will show up as a low voltage.

 

Thanks to all. Five, the best plug and play test i could think of would be somebody elses XJ700!! Anybody live around Bellingham or Everett and want to let me bring my 3 tci's down there?
Rooster i will do as you said and Chit as far as grounds go, yes i have checked and refreshed what grounds i could find in and around the battery and tci. And as far as the side stand relay goes, i did jump that stupid thing out, and thereby was another strange occurance, the bike started right up!! (this is old news tho), then ran till i turned it off for about ten minutes, i never rode it, every day for three days thereafter i turned on the key and started it and it started. Then on about the fourth day I got all my gear on, went out to start it again and the damned thing wouldn't start.

I will get my volt meter out and do Roosters test again first chance i get and get back to you. My bike is still on the trailer, i was thinking about taking somewhere as soon as i find a somewhere to take it to. For some reason i have been fixated on Bellingham and forgot all about Everett, as city ten times the size and just as close. But now, i just want to wait for the regulator to get here and see what happens first. Of course if i get anywhere with these tests I wont have to.

 

You either have the worst luck in the universe, or it's not the TCI.
I'm betting on the latter.

Stop taking it to other people to work on (unless it's another XJ enthusiast). Nobody else will be as thorough as you, and you're already 0/1 when it comes to professional help. Very few techs that know how to work on 80's machines are still in the business.

 

You may have to mail your TCI's to somebody here on this forum to have them tested on their good running bike.....instead of you driving the bike to them.....

Place your trust in the people here on this forum

Start a thread for TCI tester for your XJ700.....if you get a taker...fine....mail them to him...

I agree with k-moe..... I bet your TCI's are good

 

Send the whole bike to Matti. You can trust Matti.

 

550H cant do much about the voltage on that sheet cause bike wont run, and i cant not have the headlight be on either. i blew up the diodes diagram but not able to see clearly,
Rooster, WITHOUT the charger on 12v at the Bat and 10V on the R/W to Bk; WITH the charger on I have 14V at the battery and 12.0 from R/W to Bk

all this with the 'new' regulator i just got from ebay. i tried all of the TCIs i have (3 of them), and still no hint of a spark happening with it cranking a million miles an hour.
the bike shops in bellingham: 1st one said their mechanic isn't coming back cause he died, and didn't want to work on my bike until maybe october when he had nothing else to do. the 2nd guy said go away and part out your bike, it's too old.
i checked the continuity of all white wires and the green and brown from the TCI to the next connector and wires were good. wondinging about how much i could make parting this out. tired of working on it.

 

while cranking, V btwn R/W and Bk went to 11V, with or without the charger on. which i thought was weird.

i have only till the 19th to return the first TCI. but i guess i should return them both anyway. i dont think my original one is any worse than the others and can send that off to get tested. the guy in the Netherlands said that all his parts come off running bikes btw

 

Did you do this step also? It is so easy to pull the side stand relay, just do it if you have not. You don't even have to pull the tank like most of the XJ's.

Per Len at http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/

- on all XJ700 and XJ750-X models: under the left frame side cover, on the plastic regulator-rectifier mounting plate.

It should be marked with blue and the corresponding harness should have blue vinyl tape.

And this step also, another quick check that ensures the secondary of the coils are OK. Try it first with the caps on by inserting the leads in the spark plug caps, set the meter to 200kohm range since with caps the total will exceed the 20kohm scale. Check 1 to 4 and 2 to 3. If you don't get a reading, unscrew the caps and check the coil and then the caps. Look for corrosion where the cap screws into the plug coil.

OK, so that was a quick and painless test, now you know the electrical wiring and fuses are good and the TCI is being powered properly.

This is a little concerning as there should not be any green and brown wires "from the TCI", did you mean to say Rect/Reg Assy?

 

the side stand switch, if that is what you are calling the relay, has been jumped. that is what i did to make it run the first time around before it decided to never start again. prior to that i had just unplugged it which did nothing. the wires to it are Bu/Y and Bk.

yeah, sorry, i meant to the regulator, the 3 whites and the g and brn.

now in your link (post above), i'm reading that are both a sidestand switch AND a sidestand relay? ok so this would be news to me, as i believe i am only bypassing the switch at the kickstand. is there a sidestand relay? and where is it?

 

side stand relay
Per Len at http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/

- on all XJ700 and XJ750-X models: under the left frame side cover, on the plastic regulator-rectifier mounting plate.

It should be marked with blue and the corresponding harness should have blue vinyl tape.

and please read what has been posted by others we are trying to help you.

 

i am and am answering even your posts when i say 550H i am talking to you.
i found the wiring diagram and the whole xj700 service manual here: http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/85-xj700-maxim-wiring-diagram.28164/
i plan on checking the relay first thing tomorrow

 

relay i guess works since i jumped it out grounding bl/y, bk, and bk/w wires. blew the IGN fuse about 4 times till i figured out not to jump R/W to the Bl/y on that relay.... resoldered and refreshed the main ground wire to the block and replaced the black wire from the Neg terminal over to the side panel, since, when i did the neutral sw test (pg 170 of service manual), 0 ohms supposed to be + i got 9, with it all new i STILL get 6 ohms to the frame. i thought maybe i had the problem when i saw that the 12ga or 10ga wire from the terminal to side panel was about 1/2 broken off. but it didn't fix anything. i guess i should run a ground wire from the block to the frame?
i guess all that i have left to do is start to check diodes in different parts? the engine is cranking, so i can eliminate any parts in that circuit, or not. i'm still open to any ideas. 3 more hours down the drain.

and btw my kickstand SW is shot measuring 900 ohms instead of zed. and also, i checked the jumped relay as well as the new ground, all with the 3 tci's i have and nothing changed, it just cranks w/o any hint of a sound of a spark. i've tried using a screwdriver to the case but it's not visable or audible that way either.

 

What in the world prompted that procedure? The goal was to just remove the side stand relay to verify the TCI is not being disabled by a malfunctioning safety circuit component. The ground at the B/W on the side stand relay wire is what can disable the TCI, so removing the side stand relay (normally closed contacts) eliminates that possibility.

And yes, jumping the R/W to L/Y (blue/yellow) is going to blow the ignition fuse if the bike is in neutral or the side stand is up. If the side stand switch was disconnected or the side stand was down it is likely the diode block was also damaged.

 

I really think that you need to slow down and listen instead of coming up with you own testing procedures.
You have two of the most knowledgeable members on here trying to help you.
Please focus on doing things as they request so we can bring your bike back to life.