XJ650 Starting issues

I thought that this was only the case on XJ550 models, otherwise you wouldn't use that bolt.

Are you saying adding an oil cooler on the XJ650 Maxim will introduce that bolt back into the system?

 

Good question.
I have both xj750 and xj900 and they both use that block addon for the oil cooler. You physically can't remove the engine from the frame without removing it first.
My knowledge is reduced to those two models.
I don't imagine it would be different for the other models but it could be.

 

Also in the case of adding anti seize to the bolt that goes in for the spin on kit, how do you account for the torque spec where some of it has loctite and the other part has anti seize?

Instructions say set it to 20! Foot pounds, but with anti seize that is what, 25% less right? Also the base bolt is 11 so I'm a bit concerned if the threads can handle 20 unless it can get into the threads in the back that this bolt can't reach by itself

I'm assuming the remaining threads in the crankcase are tapered or something, because I guess I don't quite understand why it can't be hand tightened further, otherwise

 

Kinda an idea of the oil cooler block with a transac 4into1 system. You can see the block in one pic.

 

I have never seen a tapered thread in these engines. Definitely don't assume that.

 

I guess I'm not sure why it can't be tightened further (by two finger)

The length of the threads on the bolt I think, I would need to double check, is shorter than the available threads in the oil filter hole. That image I attached went in super smooth and with no issues. Doesn't wiggle, doesn't feel cross threaded, feels like a brand new bolt in a brand new nut of the correct sizes and fitment.

I'll double check the length of the threads with my caliper tonight.

I will say the new bolt and the OEM bolt are different overall lengths, the new one with the larger head is a few mm longer overall.

Take a look at the attachment: this is the old bolt. It has this weird "taper" like maybe it was stretched? Idk if this is normal for this bolt. The new one doesn't look like it shares that same shape.

 

When you create a thread on a bolt with a die it is tapered at its end point. Like the tap pic I sent earlier but the inverse. The meat is stripped away but there will be a taper at the end of both tools if not going all the way. Maybe the bolt just doesn't need to go all the way in and that is confusing the issue. Measure it against the oil filter umm, cowling thing, I guess. No real issue with having too much thread if it doesn't bottom out before it tightens that down.

 

Correct, but........for bikes without the factory oil cooler, then that special union bolt is not used (well, it's used on all XJ550 engines, but that's another story.....),. No-oil-cooler equipped XJ650/XJ750 models (which is 99.5% of what was available in North America) didn't come with an oil cooler, hence no union bolt. The entire rest of the world always used an oil cooler on XJ550, XJ650, and XJ750 models (and many others). Only the XJ650 Turbo an the XJ900 used it here in the USA, and Canadian-only 1982 XJ650RJC Seca models (the red bikes) had them stock.......but those bikes were really "leftover" UK/Euro 4K0 or 4K1 models.

 

Looking at the rear brake axle bolt, is it supposed to look bent like this?

Looking at the manual it seems pretty straight in the photo.

I'm not sure what I have to do to replace this rod, it looks like it is connected to a spring...

It doesn't look like it's a part that Len carries, and looking on eBay, it seems like I can find this part and it seems like the rod itself is held in with a bolt that's then held in with a cotter pin, that I seemingly might be able to remove without also removing the swing arm, but I am not sure, and I really don't want to have to remove the swingarm as well or replace the entire assembly

 

you can straighten that, as long as its not bent in the threads

 

I'm not really sure, I'll have to find out when I disassemble it.

So I got the oil can delivered, And I'm noticing a couple of things, namely the hollow bolt, only seems to fit about 12 mm and change into the filter hole. I've tried both the old bolt filter and the new bolt, and those both fit around 15.6ish millimeters inside of the hole. Of course this is only finger tightening. Now, the oil filter itself, absolutely fits between the headers, and I seem to have enough hand leverage in order to get the oil can to touch the hollow bolt, but because header 3 is just a little too close to the notches on the outside of the oil can, and because the bolt is too far out, I'm not confident that I can get it on the hollow bolt without accidentally cross threading on the oil can.

Without removing the headers, which is a separate can of worms, I'm not sure that I can get the oil can on, unless the bolt can go in much farther. However, while I don't think that I'm cross threading the hollow bolt, it's weird to me that it doesn't go farther into the hole like I would expect it to. I've been using blue tack to stick into the oil filter hole, to see if I can get at any loose fragments, and it's pretty much coming up clean, so I don't think that there is a metal fragment in there that's keeping it from turning.

 

Eyeball measurements, but I think I would just need like 5 mm more clearance...

Can I take a ball peen hammer and dent the exhaust header? Lol

 

Realizing that I don't have the clearance to put in the spin-on, because header number 3 is just like slightly too much in the way, I tried again with the original oil filter assembly.
I'm confident in that I was doing it very carefully and making sure I wasn't cross threading, and I was able to finger tighten it down until the rubber of the filter touched the aluminum, and then the friction of the rubber against the aluminum, and the spring of the filter, prevented me really from hand tightening it down any further, so I got the socket and tightened it by hand, until the filter housing was. Maybe maybe three or 4 mm? Away from closing off and it got tight. So I take my torque wrench, and I stop at 8 ft lb and it's still not closed off, there's about maybe 3 mm left. I use the blue tack again to see if there are any metal fragments, and two half Moon threads come off.

I think I give up on trying to do this myself and just have the tech do it.

 

Depending on what the shop quotes me, to fix the oil filter threads, I may just do it myself. $355 for the kit and sell it on eBay for a loss after using it because I doubt I'll need a M20x1.5 ever again is certainly cheaper than what a shop would want.

I've been doing a lot of reading on the process of doing a time sert, and I believe I could plug the hole with a rag. At that point it's just a matter of, center stand, put the bike on jacks on the frame to keep it elevated, take the front tire off and forks, take off the stupid headers, cut myself a big enough block of wood and hold it in place to use as a drill guide, coat drill bit in grease with slow motion, drill indent, tap threads, use insert tool, clean hole and remove rag, that should prevent the metal fragments from getting inside, can also use tweezers and more blutac because that worked exceptionally well to remove fragments too so far in case something got stuck behind something else.

I figure what do I have to loose? A bike that doesn't ******* run anyways? This entire thing has been way too much project creep and I haven't even got to the parts of the bike I actually wanted to do because I'm getting caught up on some PO's abuse and dumb ******* choices, and 30 years of aging and lack of maintenance when I just wanted to ride. I should have just bought a new bike so I could ride this and putter around with this on the side instead of this being the only way I can ride anything.

 

Sucks pretty much.
Try to do the right thing and end up wishing you didn't bother looking at it.
Perfect is great. But if your going to commit to doing the helicoil (or whatever it's called) just go for broke and tighten it up till it seals.

If it works out, ride around and forget about it, just like the PO.

If not then you are back to the original issue.

 

Well that's basically what I did, I'm almost certain that I did it correctly, and as soon as I started to tighten it down, more threads started coming out.

From talking to another DIYer friend, once the threads behave the way they've been, it just snowballs.

 

Ouch and damn.
Yes... Forward is the only option.
Don't forget that it'll be great when you hit powerband in second gear! Eventually.

 

https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/tech-topic-the-real-costs-of-maintenance.14581

Well, that certainly is an exciting, ambitious plan.....and one that I wouldn't ever recommend, but you seem to have a greater level of experience and ingenuity than most people. But if I were to attempt to do this, (almost) # 1 on my list of things to do would be to drop the oil pan because no matter how hard you try, you'll very likely get some type of metal shavings down in there, and you most definitely don't want them to remain there, as they could make the issues that you have now seem minor......

The issue with time-serts or heli-coils is that they require extreme precision when drilling the guide hole....it has to be perfectly in alignment with the axis of the original hole, or otherwise the insert --- once installed --- will end up "cocked" a bit, and then whatever fastener that goes into that newly threaded hole will be (slightly) cocked, and applying torque to it will --- if the fastener is somehow constrained to only go in "straight" ---- it will rip threads out again (from the softer metal, the fastener or the time-sert/helicoil) and you're right back where you started. In the case of the oil filter (stock or spin-on kit), there's really not that sort of constraint to the angle of the fastener that will be introduced, but an off-angle may very likely not allow the filter cover (stock system) or adapter plate (spin-on kit) to be firmly snugged down, as the cinching force of the fastener now has some amount of "sideways" component to it instead of just "straight".......which, depending on the offset, may or may not cause minor or major issues....

Note: I'm not trying to discourage you, just making sure that you fully understand the risks involved. If you are able to pull this off (no pun intended......) successfully, then I would suggest also buying some Powerball lottery tickets for the big drawing, as you'll be the most skilled and luckiest dude around........!

Sadly, yes.

 

22mm drill bit probably for the insert.
Good point.
That is a hell of a thing to use by hand in metal if your not a rock climber or someone with phenomenal hand and arm strength plus a damn good eye.

We can always bog it up or weld it up and try again. Surely. Although engine is definitely out at this point and stripped.

I'm not being negative also. Stupid issue to have really. That is one PO that needs a good telling off.

 

Yeah, I should have told myself that last year and just bought a new bike.

Yeah, I'm aware of all that, but the difference is $350 or probably at least over $1000 for an engine out job. It's not the drain pan, it's the oil filter, which is part of the lower crank case. I think my saving grace in this situation is that the oil channel appears to go up into the engine and I should be able to block fragments with a rag (or cotton balls or anything really) and a combination of that, plus a greased drill bit, to catch the rest of the swarth. I don't see what pulling the drain pan would do, though doing so would allow me to check the thread on that too and repair as needed.

The side project is going to be to remove the headers without causing more damage...

Yeah, I actually do rock climb, though I haven't been in a few months. My arms have certainly gotten weaker, unfortunately. I should go back to the gym to train up my muscles for more wrenching. I also paint miniature figurines on the side, so my eyes are pretty good. I guess the question is whether my drill can hold a drill bit that size, or if there's a way to use another tool...

 

Yes, I know that this particular operation you are considering has to do with the filter housing threads in the lower crankcase. But that passage which is the oil return passage OUT of the filter leads into an oil gallery and then directly to the crankshaft main journal and rod bearings, as well as up to the cams, etc. This main oil gallery runs side-to-side in the lower crankcase, and can be accessed by remove those two large, hex-cap plugs that sit directly under the large round "YICS" crank-end engine covers (actually called "(oil) pump covers" by Yamaha). So removing those end plugs (careful; they're some kind of cast, weak pot-metal that fractures easily) and somehow blocking off that passage would go a long way to making sure that nothing gets in there.....because anything metallic that gets in there is going directly to the crank bearings, which is never a good thing (and possibly even worse if it goes to the cam bearings).

Typically, to bore a perfectly aligned hole thru an existing hole (which is what you are trying to do), the object to be drilled will need to be jigged up on a drill press table (if drilling vertically) or on a line-boring table (if drilling horizontally), the absolute center of the existing hole and its axis determined and "everything else" (in this case the lower crankcase), which --- if still attached to the rest of the engine --- then the entire engine would need to be positioned, and then the drilling / tapping / heli-coil or the like inserted. That's the only real way to insure that the new hole and insert are "square" and positioned properly.

If trying to do it with the engine still in the bike, you'll be drilling "kinda upwards" and from a semi-upside-down perspective. I'm not saying that's impossible ..... and you've talked about making up some type of fixture to insure a straight penetration ..... so maybe it can be done successfully, but if I were a betting man, I'd take the other side of that bet (and that is in no way a comment on you or your skills; I'd take the other side of that bet if a practiced, experienced machinist attempted to that, too).

The surest way to do this job is this:

a) remove engine from bike (not all that hard, and the best way to do that is to lay the bike on its side after you've disconnected the shaft drive, etc.......you can find threads on this topic on the forums)

b) flip the engine upside down and remove the lower crankcase. This is a sorta pain to do, but it means you don't have to carry the entire engine to a shop, and you don't have to disturb the cylinder head, pistons, rods, or crank.

c) take the lower crankcase to the machine shop (I'd pop out the crank main journal bearings that will still be in this lower crankcase section, just for safekeeping, and make sure you note which bearing came from which position.....they might be all different from each other!). Jigging up the (rather small) lower crankcase section will be infinitely easier for a shop to do than dealing with an entire engine.

d) also to consider, and which I think you already noted: the cost of the proper sized heli-coil or time-sert insert is cheap; it's the special driver tool for installing the insert which is the expensive part of the ordeal (and driver tools tend to be specific to each size threads kit). So, if you can find a shop that already has the proper sized "kit" for that size threads, then really all you should be paying for is the cost of an insert, some "amoritization" fee for the use of the tool, plus the labor. I would think this would be much less than $1,000.00. In fact, if you can find a used driver tool (for whichever style insert you plan to use) on eBay, etc......then you can take that to ANY machine shop (along with purchasing a few of the correct sized insets) and really get the cost down.


NOTE: the above is free advice, so please consider it as such.....

 

I really do appreciate the advice, by the way.

I guess I'm not understanding something about the oil return passage.



This, from this angle at least, seems to just go "up". Perhaps it also goes to the left and right, but it's hard to tell from this image exclusively. The idea I had was, "if the passageway was plugged, stuffed with something that would prevent the shavings from getting past, whether it was with a rag, or something else that suitably prevents debris from getting back into the crankcase, then there wouldn't be fragments to worry about getting into the crank, because it's plugged up. There is a separate hole to the bottom right, outside of where I need to screw in, but that also can be taped off or blocked. Maybe even cover the visible end of the rag with some dollups of grease, and when you're done, pull out the whole rag and the action should catch any stray fragments and clean out the hole in one smooth motion"

You can see an example of what I'm talking about here:
https://teamghettoracing.com/mechanical/other-mechanical/thread-repair-timesert-install-sump/

They cover the drill bit, the counter sink, and the tap, all in grease, which appears to do a very good job absorbing the metal fragments, along with lubricating the drill & tap. (also you could technically use the tap guide in the kit as a way to center the drill bit as well, though I was thinking of something that I could feasibly fashion into a guide that could be secured to the bike so it's one less hand to need...on hand...)

While this link specifically is for an oil pan, I have seen multiple people so far, at least claim, that this worked for them, on other bikes. Maybe even flush some oil through the system to make sure afterwards. Hypothetically, if this was enough, then the problem is less "is there metal fragments in the crank" and "did I make the hole straight enough", where I've also read from various folks that the existing hole itself would potentially act like a pilot hole, and help to center the bit as well. As I've not actually tried this myself, I can't claim the truth of that, but it seems to make logical sense, up to a point.

In any case, even if I wasn't to do that, I don't think I currently can do this in the "correct" way. I live in an apartment complex, and the bike is parked in my spot of the parking lot. Even if I hypothetically could remove the engine to take off the lower half of the crank case, I couldn't leave the engine there while I bring it to a machine shop and have them do it. I could possibly remove the engine, flip it over on the grass, crack the lower half open and cover the engine with a blanket, while I drill in the hole myself, and then carefully put everything back and hope and pray I don't break something else. As long as the engine is put back into the bike by the end of the day. I'm confident about a lot of things, but I am not confident about that.

Try as a girl might, I have biker friends locally, but no one who has a garage for me to set up shop to do this. So, I feel like I have a few options:

1. try my idea and see if it works
2. pay the local mechanic to do all this for me. They would probably do all the steps you are suggesting, and I can't imagine it'd be a dollar less than $1000. I could easily see it balloon into $2000. And there's so much project creep here: what if they open it up and find plastic fragments from the chain guides? what if the starter gears are dogged? Suddenly one issue becomes an entire engine rebuild. (do I have any evidence this is the case and I just don't know it? no, but anything can happen when you have anxiety)
3. pay a storage unit for at least a month, and also pay to tow the bike there, so I can work in an area with battery lights, but no drill press, unless I want to own a drill press I can't use anywhere else, because no garage, and no shed, and I'd have to try and resell or continue paying for a storage unit until I can get rid of it
4. give up

I wouldn't spend all this effort to give up and sell the bike when it has sentimental value, though I'm going to have to come up with a solution to put the bike somewhere over the winter because it can't stay in the parking lot over winter either. I possibly could beg favors from friends to help with the towing, but past that I'm kind of on my own.

I fully accept that my idea is risky, and yeah doing it this way is cutting corners. If I had a garage or some sort of space that I could putter with each of these steps over the course of a couple weeks, then yeah I would do this exactly the way that you're suggesting. I just don't currently have that option available to me. If you are suitably convinced that my idea won't work, I really only have two options. I either pay for the repair shop to do it for me, or try to get a storage unit and do it in there instead.

 

Well, you sure have all the stars aligned against you......I guess it's a matter of asking "what's the worse outcome?" and of course the answer is that the procedure fails or possibly even causes more harm than good. So then your options are to give up totally on this project and move on to something else, or source a used replacement engine from somewhere....650 engines are somewhat common. There's risks with a used engine, of course, but due diligence can eliminate many potential problems.

I feel for you, it's a tough situation and decision to make (especially with the cost of a time-sert set).

Well good luck and best wishes for whichever way you end up going. And that was a pretty good and thorough article that you linked to.