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Chacal...

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by cds1984, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. cds1984

    cds1984 Active Member

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    Man... you are great but what is going on here.
    I bought this,
    HCP10232 OEM alternator bearing housing OIL SPRAY NOZZLE, use 1 per engine: $ 26.95
    in 2011.
    now it costs over $100...

    please, I want to support you but is this supply and demand or capitalism?
    Trying not to be a wanker but sheesh that is a HUGE increase for something that hasn't been current since the 80s and something that is thrashed out in every engine that hasn't it had it replaced with the HIVO chain and guide in the last 10 years or so... :(
     
  2. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    That part has been NLA from Yamaha for a long while now.

    I have no idea if he's selling what stock he has, or if he's having them made, but once large-volume production ceases the cost of the less-commonly needed parts rises greatly (no matter what machine the part is for).

    There is one (I forget which one) of the transmisson bearings that's been NLA from anyone for many years. Used ones go for stupid money; to the point where it's almost cheaper to buy a spare engine.

    Have you priced oversized piston sets? Be prepared to set up a group buy from a custom piston manufacturer.

    Such is the way of the classic motorcycle.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
    Bluegray57 likes this.
  3. Bluegray57

    Bluegray57 Active Member

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    If you choose to own a bike that has been out of production for many years, you have to expect prices to increase on some parts. After all, 2011 was seven years ago and the bikes are many years older. You might be better served by asking your question in a direct email.
     
  4. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    A little of both, I suppose, but not just on my end.....

    The half-dozen or so which we have remaining are NOS (original Yamaha) items. We bought every one we could find once it was discontinued from Yamaha, average cost (to us) is about $ 75.....we don't make that much on them once you consider laying out the money, packaging, people who handle them, etc.

    And this brings up an issue which I've mentioned a few times in the past, and always get a bit of pushback on........the prices of parts are going to keep going up, for a number of reasons:

    a) as k-moe pointed out, no one if going to make the "proprietary" items cheaper than Yamaha, and that's mainly due to them making thousands at a time and/or having great leverage with their suppliers AND the tooling costs have been amortized a long, long time ago (when prices for tooling were much cheaper). The aftermarket doesn't enjoy this advantage.

    b) Small production runs (with an acceptable level of quality, i.e. it fits and works as intended) is not cheap, and not getting any cheaper. We actually had this little nozzle quoted (overseas.....who are the only people who will do short-run manufacturing any more) and it's $5K tooling and $12 per unit for 1000 units......that's an outlay of $17K for one small item, and a more-than-a-lifetime supply (i.e. dead money). If you want to do just 300 of them (more in line with eventual demand) then the price goes up to $35 or so per unit (i.e. the same monetary outlay, $ 35 x 300 = $10.5K, almost the same as $ 12 x 1000 units). With "trade wars" heating up, this situation will probably not get any better.

    c) You cannot find shops domestically to do small runs. All the competent machine shops (the few that are left) are busy with high-value (i.e. military or aerospace) projects, and won't touch a project like this. And we've even explored doing a "substitute" version of the project.....i.e. buy a currently available nozzle from Yamaha and modifying it to work in this application. Not happening, there's too many small-but-significant differences between the various applications.

    d) pistons: good luck getting "them" to actually do a short run......I know some of the "big names" advertise doing short runs, but in real life, the answer will be "no" (if you even get a reply, at all, from them).

    e) I wish that I had better news to share. I've been saying (since 2011 or prior) that you'd better get what you can while prices for parts (and bikes) are still somewhat affordable, and I'm sticking with that recommendation......consider the process of manufacturing (or trying to) as a "crystal ball" peek into the future.....and that crystal ball is flashing red with the words MASSIVE INFLATION heading our way in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  5. Jetfixer

    Jetfixer Well-Known Member

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    I support Chacal when I can on parts , everything I have purchased from him has been spot on. I'm lucky I have a local old Yamaha dealer that helps out when I need something I can't wait for . Realize the parts and the bikes will dry up at some point , it will get harder to find and yes prices will rise accordingly . Some models like the X the production might not have been as high , if only produced for 1 to 2 years not as many parts out there. The Honda's there are plentiful parts still out there , maybe not so much on the Seca/Maxim ...this is one reason support Chacal while he still has the parts :D
     
  6. cds1984

    cds1984 Active Member

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    Ack, reality check!
    Was hoping you were going to say oops it was a typo haha. Damnit!
    But I completely understand... just gonna have to tie it up with wire.

    I was looking at the oil spray nozzle and it is mild steel all round and as far as I can tell the only real specificity is the size of the hole and the direction it points, which makes sense.
    Going to refurb one by replacing the bit of pipe braized in with a 6mm O.D annealed copper tube with same length and hole size. hmm hmm. and keep my eye out for some mild steel 6mm tube in the future.
    I'll send a pic when done.
     
  7. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    Again, this is why I continue to buy my parts from Len...
     
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  8. turpentyne

    turpentyne Active Member

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    I've been daydreaming about 3d printing unique/hard to find parts. They make a plastic mold to get things right, and then the part is created. Here's an interesting article from Jay Leno back in '09 about doing it for his vintage cars: https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a4354/4320759/

    I think the same problem exists though - what Chacal described. Small manufacturing runs are not appetizing: Bigger fish, bigger wallets.

    I'd totally do it... but first, I need to talk somebody into letting me have a tv show for 20 years, making a cool 50 million. :)
     
  9. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    It's not just that bigger runs result in bigger profits. The break-even point is a deal-breaker.
    Onsey-twosey parts for a restoraton can be lucrative when the restorer can't get the part any other way, and you can make it with existing tooling. Once you have to step things up for any sort of real production volume things get really expensive in terms of investment.
    I did a quick rundown in my head last night as to what it would take to make that oil nozzle on my lathe. I figure at least three hours for the first one (including setup time and working out the order of the cuts), and maybe 45 minutes for each one therafter. To make a profit I'd have to sell each one for around $250.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  10. Minimutly

    Minimutly Well-Known Member

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    Well, it depends whether you want to make a living or just pay yourself to "tinker in the workshop"?
    say you make someone that part, someone else makes another part, and on. Each time they sell for material+ power+minimum time cost. It could be the thing that keeps these bikes going in years and years.
    Oh, and on the 3d printing - why not, these tevo tornadoes are now sub £300, yamaha tank emblems here we go. AND, if you want to cast something, 3d print it plus shrinkage, sandcast it.
     
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  11. a100man

    a100man Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that Suzuki launched a vintage parts program a couple of year bike to some applause. Not sure how many 'new' parts were re-launched but it was an acknowledgement that support for like-minded enthusiasts can be profitable at least. Maybe 'the other three' will take note.
     
  12. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    send me a print or a old one
     

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