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How to convert to LED's and still have everything work

Discussion in 'XJ DIY How-To Instructions' started by SQLGuy, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Thanks Rooster53! Man you really have all of the answers!

    Also thank you for looking up the LED for me, I wasn't sure what I was even searching for. I definitely agree that 30 lumens would be far too much as a dash indicator light.

    It's ironic how bidirectional LEDs are supposed to make the installation simpler. Well I'm in this deep already, I could easily solder an diode into the wire to the neutral light in the gauge. Figure that'd be easier than disassembling the relay. A diode pointing the right way shouldn't hurt anything right? Even if an incandescent is replaced later?
     
  2. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Well, my apologies but I am going to change my mind a bit and err on the side of safety. It is true that the pulsing light is caused by the collapsing field from the starter cutoff relay coil, and replacing the bi-directional LED with a directional LED will cure that problem, or adding the diode. But, when I tested this earlier I had a defective incandescent bulb, and misinterpreted how that bulb would actually suppress the spike from the starter cutoff relay coil. Now, it may not be an issue, but doing the mod with the directional LED or the separate diode eliminates the suppression of the starter cutoff relay coil voltage (300V). What now needs to be considered is the reverse voltage of the diode in the diode block and the consequence of it becoming damaged if it is not properly rated. Odds are, its reverse voltage is well above the 300V and likely Yamaha would have selected a diode knowing that bulbs burn and consequently would subject the diode to these spikes. However, I would not recommend risking damaging that diode, which if shorted would allow the starter to engage with just the side stand up while in gear. Therefore, the best logic here is to keep the incandescent bulb for the neutral light and maintain the integrity of the safety circuit.

    And yes, the diode would work fine with the incandescent bulb but would also block the suppression of the starter cutoff relay coil voltage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  3. ManBot13

    ManBot13 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I need to look more carefully at the wiring diagram to understand how the diode block plays into all of this. Is the bi-directional LED ok because it is a load going through the circuit.

    Just spit-balling here, but what about two diodes and a resistor, one that allows current to flow from the LED bulb to the coil, and another in the opposite direction into a resistive load, to the LED. That way there's extra resistance in one direction <---Probably overkill, I should just put the incandescent back :rolleyes:

    EDIT: Or maybe just a diode and a resister in parallel?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  4. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Yes the bi-directional LED is dampening the voltage on the starter cutoff relay, that is why you see the light flashing when the clutch switch is opened. That is so little power, LED's are amazingly efficient.

    You could put a diode and resistor in parallel with the LED, but you have to go down to about 47 ohms (LED efficiency once again). The drawback here is considering worst case (diode shorts) then the 47 ohm resistor sees a full 12V when the neutral switch is closed, which puts it up around 4 watts. You could also just use the diode, which covers dampening the spike from the starter cutoff relay. However, considering worst case again (diode shorts) then you lose your signal fuse in neutral.

    I did de-pot an old scrap diode block in hopes of finding some markings on them and determining their specifications, but no such luck on markings.

    I can say with a fairly high assurance that the series diode or directional LED would be OK. I don't have the equipment to test the diode block diodes, but I can verify that it is not clipping and therefore rated higher than the voltages being produced by the starter cutoff relay collapsing field. I see this as the best alternative (next to just keeping the incandescent bulb) as the failure of this diode or the diode block is less severe than the other options worst case.

    Sidebar: Never noticed before but the original design defeats the safety circuit if the signal fuse blows or if you just remove it. The current path for the starter cutoff relay and side stand relay is now through the neutral indicator bulb to the various low impedance high side signal circuits. The directional LED bulb will eliminate that anomaly as will the bi-directional LED with a series diode.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  5. fessus

    fessus New Member

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    I have a question about the function on the self-canceling unit.

    From the original post under item one:
    What will happen if the momentarily connection between Y/R and B to the canceling unit is permanent? Will that constantly reset the canceling unit?

    Asking because I'm changing my controls on the handlebar and the new ones don't have the function of conduction permanently between one pair and momentarily between two others.
     
  6. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Yes it will hold the cancelling unit in reset, and the flasher relay will always be enabled so the flashers would have to be manually turned off.

    If you are set on going with those controls you will have to give up the auto cancel feature. The best way would be to just remove the auto cancel unit and the flashers will operate in the manual mode.
     
  7. fessus

    fessus New Member

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    Hmm Ok, what I suspected...

    I'm not entirely set on changing them, this is sort of the deal breaker..
    And how complex would a circuit be that only sends an impulse even though constantly on?
    Fill up a capacitor? That then blocks DC once loaded? Bad idea?
     
  8. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    My initial thought is it would get fairly complicated and component heavy. It would be easy to come up with a power up reset, but gets more complex since the flasher relay is in a state of applying and removing power every 1/2 second or so. A simple power reset would then hold the cancel unit in a constant state or reset.
     
  9. fessus

    fessus New Member

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    It probably will.
    Think I came to the same conclusion as you, keep it in constant reset mode, unless indicating R/L using a normally closed relay maybe and steal some other wire to open it once indicating.
     
  10. Tim morris

    Tim morris Member Premium Member

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    Put together kits all parts needed and for us dummy's picture s real life and you will sell a lot of them I will gladly pay$$$$ to upgrade my head lights getting old like the bike lol need more light to see and be seen
     
  11. Tim morris

    Tim morris Member Premium Member

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    I've been playing with this idea for years but only got to the point where I had to add more resistance there by defeating it's real purpose I've got three bikes I could do it too right away
     
  12. Johnius

    Johnius Member

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    This post is great and I'm installing an LED H4 on my 81 750 SECA. I don't fully understand the note for two reasons: first, I'm not that smart. second, my headlight doesn't function as described. The low beam does not throw a warning at all (which is great), but the high beam does. I understand that the high beam indicator (blue light on dash) is grounded through the low beam (which won't work with the LED). Can I just ground it direct and have it work? Which wire do I ground (don't know how to read the electrical chart)?

     

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